Saurfang Sr. has a similar set of lines at the start of Icecrown, but much more detailed. He talks about how if the Horde can free Bolvar that there is a chance to quell the current feelings and he heads outside to prep the Orgrim's Hammer for an assault on the ramparts. Tirion tells him that Bolvar lives, but that his soul is under immense strain.

I'm very curious to see what ends up pitting Saurfang and Muradin against each other when they have the same goal.

This would be the perfect set-up for both factions to face a freshly broken Deathbringer Bolvar after the Airship encounter, losing what hope they had of mending the relationship between the two factions.

I can't really see them actually pitting us against Muradin or Saurfang, so I imagine the other faction's ship will be flown by the normal captain. And being random NPC #437 instead of a great hero, he's allowed to do something stupid like attack the other faction in the middle of a war against the Scourge. It's Koom Valley, we'll both be ambushed by the treacherous other side.

Blizzard said we'd be boarding the airships with either Saurfang the Elder or Varian Wrynn, now seemingly changed to Muradin. While this may also change, I'm assuming these commanders will be with us on the airship.

The reason for the actual aerial battle could be one of miscommunication. The Alliance forces may think the Horde is looking to put Bolvar out of his misery instead of saving him and boom go the cannons. Having an Airship Commander NPC who isn't a known character, like Tirin said, helps this sort of thing, as the projectiles fly and the fan+feces reaction begins before Saurfang and Muradin can say a word.

So...could Saurfang Jr. just show up in the middle of the fight agains Bolvar? I can see Bolvar killing Saurfang Sr towards the end of the fight, which should have an effect on Jr., who realizes what they have become and lends us a hand.

Maybe they changed the idea of the airship battle as well? Otherwise we're going to need to find the equivelant of azerothian chess.

Well we know from the screenshots of Cataclysm, all out war has broken between the Horde and Alliance. The first logical thing that jumped to my head was we get to Bolvar, but its as he turned.

For horde, as we kill him, Varien Wrynn bursts in and sees us killing Bolvar, gets the wrong assumption from it (thinking he isn't turned yet), and in his anger fights and kills Saurfang.

Alliance fight Bolvar, free him from the Lich King (i.e. kill him), and Varian blames for Horde for the whole situation because of the Wrathgate. That's been his stance so far, why would he change it? Fighting Bolvar would just reinforce his hatred because not only did Bolvar suffer at the Wrathgate, but Arthas captured, tortured, and turned him.

I think the only real question is how both Bolvar AND Saurfang Jr. will fit into ICC.

I still don't think it's out of the question that the Deathbringer encounter is both of them against us, but so far they've made it sound like a single boss. With this, Bolvar seems the best candidate.

As much as watching Varian kill Saurfang would mean it terms of "Vs threads overflow" and fan shock, it would definitely be a great story element in showing how the hostilites escalated even after victory (however relative) over Arthas.

After some cogwheel grinding: Saurfang's death could very well be the reason Thrall resigns the Warchief position. A blue said something along the lines of "He made bad decisions, not all of them concerning what people perceive as the biggest threat for the Horde". It's not unrealistic to thing that Thrall wasn't too enthusiastic on letting Saurfang lead the attack on Icecrown. He would be racing (no airship battle pun here) for the "man" who killed his son. That's enough to make anyone lose its cool and strategy sense, even one as ponderate as Saurfang, and lead to some stupid act, hence bad things might happen.

Bad thing 1. Saurfang dies. Thrall should've chosen someone else to lead the charge or lead it himself, like Varian did. That's one bad decision.

Bad thing 2. Saurfang dies at the hands of Human King Varian Wrynn. Meaning Thrall's previous (Undercity post-Wrath) feeling that everything he'd worked for had been for naught were now definitely confirmed. Bad decision 2 to 1000. About all the decisions he made that meant a balance between the Horde's interests and peace with the Alliance. That balance is the basis of Thrall's politics (debatable, but it's one of the main pillars). Which means the rest crumbles after this, at least in his eyes and his people's (or so he perceives).


Edit: For Alliance raids, perhaps you have to fight Saurfang Jr. before getting to Bolvar. When you finally do, you see the Horde killing Bolvar, the whole Wrynn kills Saurfang this happens. Although this means Saurfang Sr. won't witness his son's corruption, hence his presence, from a "spectator" point of view, seeming a bit pointless. This whole subject is puzzling.

The Death Knight Koltira has a quest for Horde in Dragonblight in which we're phased out and have to fight a bunch of shadowy tormentors, agents of the Lich King that are harassing him. We could see similar in the Deathbringer encounter, set up like a Kalecegos fight. Subdue DK Saurfang on one side, save Bolvar from corruption on the other. Or beat Bolvar on one side and help him retake control from DK Saurfang on the other, if they go the "Saurfang in Bolvar's body" route.

Anyway, why must we kill Bolvar? He could help lessen Varian's hatred of the Horde, it's true. But no one has the power to remove the tension between Horde and Alliance. The hatreds run to deep. If they're going to set the Horde and Alliance against each other again, I'm hoping it's because neither faction can tolerate the existance of the other, not because Wrynn and Garrosh are jerks with nations at their command.

Maybe we have to fight Saurfang, both sides, while the Lich King 'breaks' Bolvar in the next room over or something. And when we finish fighting him and kill him, presumably, on both sides .. (or release him so he could join?) we get Phase 2, kill/release Bolvar? Still one fight for both sides, same sort of impact,... Would be interesting, and it's highly unlikely that Bolvar survives, it wouldn't have the same impact on both sides if he did.

This could translate into gameplay. Think Vierzehen's suggestion above but with a timer. Upon failing such timer, we'd have to fight Bolvar. The problem with this is Blizzard said hard modes wouldn't be dependant on boss mechanics. But they have to, to some extent, right?

I think it seems more likely only Saurfang will be fought in a battle of his own and we will either rescue Bolvar from there or see him during the Lich King encounter. Can see it working pretty well with us coming up on the airships and witnessing Saurfang watching Arthas continue trying to corrupt Bolvar and being caught off guard and retreating then having Saurfang fight. I just think having both sides fight a different person just would be a bit odd to explain in the lore and which side is canon. Both sides airships eventually getting to the landing point makes sense but the side that is last getting there fighting Bolvar/Saurfang just wouldn't make much sense unless they have both make it at the same time. Guess it can play out that way with the airship battle being provoked by a bunch of 'troublemakers' on both sides and having Saurfang/Muradin getting control of their troops.

I imagine we won't get there in time to rescue Bolvar. Most likely, we will end up fighting him and possibly killing him. Though, I don't really wish to see Bolvar, Saurfang or Muradin die to this conflict, I really like those characters.

Y'know, if saurfang turns into the LK's thrall for this fight, and Bolvar remains pure/we save him, I'm gonna be rather upset. That's going to imply that one of the best Horde heroes was one-shot and turned without a second thought, while the alliance hero ends up fine.

Anyway, if you do kill Bolvar, here's how it could work from both side's perspective:

Horde: You come in, fight Bolvar, and have to channel something on him to "weaken" him during the fight. At the end when you kill him, Varian interrupts, accuses the Horde of killing Bolvar, war erupts.

Alliance: You come in while the Horde is fighting Bolvar, specifically while they're "weakening" him. Varian sees this, jumps to the wrong conclusion, interrupts things (at which point Bolvar slaughters the rest of the Horde), and you have to fight Bolvar. Afterwards, Varian assumes what you saw the Horde doing was corrupting Bolvar, war erupts.

I think we're going to be fighting against Saurfang either way. He was clearly already turned during the Yogg vision and it just doesn't make any sense for Bolvar to go rapidly from "he is alive but his soul is under great strain" to THE DEATHBRINGER in the time it takes us to reach the ramparts of the Citadel.

Also it's clear that the Runeforge from the Light's Vengeance quest belongs to Darion Mograine, as he is in the base of the Citadel with Tirion.

Well, we'll know soon enough, but my guess is on the simplest option. Horde encounters Bolvar, Alliance encounters Saurfang. Each side ends up being unable to "save" the appropriate opponent and having to kill them instead. Cue mega drama.

Adding on to this, the Light's Vengeance quest is available from Darion at the entrance to ICC and turns in at the runeforge right next to him, just to put an end to any speculation. He also has a number of dialogue options available talking about the Ashen Verdict, Frostmourne, and how he may be able to help you build a weapon to fight the Lich King. There is some mention of using Saronite and Shadowfrost in order to contain the souls held within the weapon.

After acquiring the quest I thought I might go check out the only logical location for Light's Vengeance, Frostmourne Cavern. Sure enough it's there, the area is now phased (no elementals, they disappeared as I flew in) and Light's Vengeance can be found floating over where Frostmourne previously sat. If you proceed into the cave there's a whole scene with the Lich King and an elite mob to dispatch before receiving the hammer for the quest. Much of it seemed half implemented (Arthas was labeled "Lich King (Frostmourne Cavern)" for example and the elite did next to nothing) but it was quite interesting to say the least. I'll be very interested to see how the quest develops.

I wonder how Saurfang Sr. would feel if his son were defeated by the Alliance while Bolvar was rescued.

Would he still be all about "mend the ties between the factions!"

With all that bolvar not yet being broken, do you think they are setting him up for the new lich king?

Today's PTR build is 45 MB which makes it look pretty likely we may actually see the sound files now which will answer all our questions.

We already know that the horde dialogue is also about saving Bolvar, so pretty sure this guess is wrong. Also I thought "Deathbringer Saurfang" was already extracted from the patch stuff?

Maybe saving Bolvar is a timer thing, like the 45 minute baron run, or the Infinite Corruptor in Culling of Stratholme?

I will speculate that they are setting Bolvar up to be rescued while Varian somehow becomes the new Lich King. Crazier things have happened!