Something I've seen very little discussion about when it comes to the Lich King is Ner'zhul himself. We know Artha's soul is destroyed, but what about the former orc shaman that compromises the other half of the Lich King? I had hoped that he would get back at the Burning Legion sometime but it doesn't appear that will happen anytime soon.
It just doesn't make much sense to me, you're tortured and mutliated and sent to do a job on Azeroth, you do it...but happen to break free of your controller, yet you keep doing it and not plot against them?
I would imagine that Ner'zhul's mindset going into WC3 as the Lich King is this: "I just spent what felt like an eternity getting tortured by Kil'jaeden, and have been deprived of absolutely everything, including my body. The promise of even greater suffering has been made to me should I fail the Legion again..." so he then does a great job in WC3 doing the Legion's work until he is able to shrug off the Legion's watchdogs through the use of Arthas. WC3 is arguably filled with Ner'zhul's mission to escape the control of the Legion, with the Frozen Throne capitalizing on the Legion's manipulation of Illidan to try and shut Ner'zhul down.
So at the end of WC3, the Lich King + Arthas has finally been able to free himself completely of the threat of Kil'Jaeden. With the Dark Portal still closed and the existing Legion forces too weak to take action, the Lich King has the time he needs to marshall his forces... which is what he spends the intervening time between the end of Frozen Throne and the beginning of WotLK doing. To me, it really seems like the Lich King is not so much focused on avenging himself on the Legion, but becoming such an overpowering force that the Legion can not threaten him anymore.
It's important to note that this sensibility would belong completely to Ner'zhul, not Arthas. Ner'zhul may have been content to play defensively, but Arthas practically invited the Horde and Alliance to the north for tea. That may be one of the great indicators that Arthas is in control, and Ner'zhul, if he's still in there, is helpless.
What happens when Arthas is removed from the equation? Does Ner'zhul go back to being menacing armor? I don't think that's going to be clear until we render the Ashen Verdict.
I doubt that Ner'zhul is any more destroyed than Matthias Lehner (i.e. not at all). Arthas is in control of the Lich King for the time being, and will remain so until we defeat him. His helmet falling off in his death animation is symbolic of more than just his loss of power and death.
I don't believe that Jaina is going to end up being a Lich Queen or anything of that sort, either. They're still trying to sort out the new Council of Tirisfal in the comics as far as I know. I don't know what sort of time difference lies between the comics and the game, but even if the comics are substantially behind the game, she still has an important position in the council as one of the founding members. Not to mention I doubt she's stupid enough to try to do anything with Ner'zhul's armor or Frostmourne. What would anyone hope to do with those to redeem Arthas after he's already dead?
Originally Posted by Vaccine
As for Deathbringer Saurfang, I think there will be a redemption at the end of the fight. Deathbringer breaks the Lich King's control after we've beat him to 1%. Then the Alliance gunship returns and shoots off a salvo at Deathbringer. He either dies which enrages Varok who cleaves their ship in two, or Varok jumps in the way saving Deathbringer. If the former it might leave Varok thinking the Alliance had left him with no avenues left but all out war, and if it was Varok dying Deathbringer becomes incited to destroy the Alliance and becomes Garosh's new aid/second in command.
I think there's some potential in that idea. If Saurfang Sr dies for Jr, we have an interesting way of phasing him out but keeping the legacy of Saurfang (and Broxxigar to some extent) going. We also hopefully get an orc who can help Garrosh mature a bit as a leader. Jr could still resent the Alliance and not oppose open war with them but still uphold his and his father's values. It also introduces a Death Knight to the Horde who isn't tied to the Ebon Blade.
@Kaejin: Crap, I've been calling the kid "Mathias Shaw". Brain fart indeed...My bad.
There's still no confirmation that Arthas dies there and then, the animation we saw could simply mean defeat, not outright death. What I mean is after that animation takes place, there's some sort of dicussion, be it who gets the final, reassuring blow or what to do regarding any sort of hope of purifying Arthas, which Jaina might advocate (is she sure to be at the Citadel, anyway?).
As to Saurfang Jr. becoming Garrosh's second-in-command: the idea is indeed plausible and interesting, but I have doubts as to if Jr. would really still uphold any of his father's values, most notably his desire for peace between the factions. Should this idea take place, it means the Alliance kills Saurfang's father...the chance it will show him his father was in the right track is at the very least no higher than the chance f his (already darkened) mind getting jolted and him going "War Mode". We're not talking about the "old" Saurfang the Younger. This is a Death Knight and an Orc. Short fuse and bloodluts-prone all in one.
PTR was updated once again today. Still no sound files and thus far I have found one new model named 'Lavaman' which makes me think of Bolvar considering the whole being immolated by dragonfire and all along with the paladin looking leggings.
The lavaman model is pretty interesting.. I'm more inclined to believe that it's a leaked Cataclysm model than an Icecrown boss.
I doubt a Cataclysm model would accidentally be added since I doubt they would use the same client for Cataclysm production that they are using for 3.3. It being Bolvar could work since they are testing the Airship encounter with this build and may have wanted all the models that will be getting used in.
I know there's absolutly no chance in hell for it to be what I'm thinking, but the lavaman model just keeps flashing the 'yet-to-be-corrupted-Sargeras' lights in my head.
Although if Bolvar ends up looking like that, I can almost understand Varian being pissed off. Also, if that is Bolvar, it sure as hell doesn't look like the average burnt Scourge corpse. It looks to... clean, for lack of a better word, compared to everything else that came out of ScourgeWorks INC., so I'm expecting he'll survive Icecrown Citadel, and hopefully not head to a footnote retirement.
Last edited by Enova : 10/21/09 at 12:37 AM.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I doubt a Cataclysm model would accidentally be added since I doubt they would use the same client for Cataclysm production that they are using for 3.3. It being Bolvar could work since they are testing the Airship encounter with this build and may have wanted all the models that will be getting used in.
It wouldn't be the first time a resource appeared oddly. iirc, the Tuskarr models were included in a TBC build, and of course Howling Fjord objects famously appeared before WotLK was announced.
It wouldn't be the first time a resource appeared oddly. iirc, the Tuskarr models were included in a TBC build, and of course Howling Fjord objects famously appeared before WotLK was announced.
The model just seems pretty 'scourgelike' with the destroyed armor and whatnot.
Also view the Immolated Champion (which we know is Bolvar) on WoWHead using the View in 3D button and you see how it matches the armor pretty well.
Indeed, and detectives on the MMO boards make a pretty compelling case for it:
Now, to ramp things up a little, I think that model suggests that it may be worth going back to the Bridenbrad questline for the answer of what may have happened to Bolvar:
Originally Posted by Alexstrasza
You must understand, young <race>, that cleansing the body in favor of life anew is something well within my grasp... removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body, however, is beyond the scope of the powers that I control.
Could it be worth speculating that the torching of the Wrathgate by the Black Dragonflight was not just to kill the remaining undead and recently turned, but perhaps a direct intervention by Alexstrasza herself to save Bolvar's life? Obviously Arthas would have then acquired the cleansed (immolated) "remains" of Bolvar shortly after Wrathgate and has been attempting to turn him since.
Last edited by Airraid : 10/21/09 at 4:39 AM.
Hunter now retired to pugs, solo farming and Yogg 0. Long live the shaman!
Indeed, and detectives on the MMO boards make a pretty compelling case for it:
Now, to ramp things up a little, I think that model suggests that it may be worth going back to the Bridenbrad questline for the answer of what may have happened to Bolvar:
Could it be worth speculating that the torching of the Wrathgate by the Black Dragonflight was not just to kill the remaining undead and recently turned, but perhaps a direct intervention by Alexstrasza herself to save Bolvar's life? Obviously Arthas would have then acquired the cleansed (immolated) "remains" of Bolvar shortly after Wrathgate and has been attempting to turn him since.
I doubt it was done with the intent of saving him (since it wasn't her that breathed the fire) but just realized that it may have had that affect on him.
Indeed, if saving Bolvar wasn't within the Reds' scope of powers, then the torching of the Wrathgate battleground happened for the sole reason of cleansing the whole area - and punishing the Forsaken.
Perhaps this is what Alextrasza meant when talking about the "fate of the young paladin" that we shouldn't know of: not necessarily an eventually glorious fate, but the more immediate retrieving of his body by the Scourge, as well as the Lich King's attempts to turn him (which, I hope, succeed, since I personally don't see Fordragon as the uber, epic character he's been made into in this last patch, but as the seasoned, aging general he seemed before).
(Other than the fact that the Tier10 sets seem to be in a degrading in quality with each new batch presented (although the paladin one has its interest)
The icon for the Green Dragoness boss, Valithria Dreamwalker, suggests she is still alive, the blue tinge on her eyes resembling what happened to Keristrasza - mind control, that is, not the Malygos-related part.
Blizzard, it seems, does have some passion for the old dragon model, even if it's for the last raid of this patch. Then again, there seems to be nothing special about this green. I guess I'll just have to wait for Cataclysm to see new dragons.
Yep. Very "immolated" gear. Although a bit skullish, but all the new T10 seems scourge-inspired - bar the warrior and priest.
I'm guessing the pink sash/plating in the lower "jaw" is a bug. Or Blizzard had a gas leak. Either way, the Tier 9 paladin also had its fel-color changed to regular black, so pray, ye paladins.
I didn't expect that sort of accuracy to be true when I wrote that weeks ago. Crazy.
At any rate - I think this opens up some interesting possibilities for the Alliance. All of the heros of the Alliance currently are your classic "Good Guy" archetype, out for justice and upholding the law and always coming out on top. Bolvar has been through a lot now...and no doubt it will change his outlook on how he operates.
A Paladin hero of the Alliance who has no remorse left (even moreso than Tirion - he is niether here nor there) could be a good playing piece come Cataclysm.
It wouldn't be the first time a resource appeared oddly. iirc, the Tuskarr models were included in a TBC build, and of course Howling Fjord objects famously appeared before WotLK was announced.
Or, more recently, the accidental inclusion of Cataclysm stuff on the PTR, in the form of the Halloween masks. The client is probably built from a general assets database, in which things are appropriately tagged as being "live", "ptr", "dev" (I'm assuming). And one bad scroll of the mouse when selecting the tag is so easily done...
Indeed, if saving Bolvar wasn't within the Reds' scope of powers
I'm not sure if that's the case. As mentioned, Alexstrasza said "removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body" was beyond her scope. You could very well interpret that to say that yes she can do it, but it would greatly distort the body of the person cleansed - which could very well be the case with Bolvar.
Hunter now retired to pugs, solo farming and Yogg 0. Long live the shaman!
@Redlimit: You're telling me that charred aberration (like the guy or not) is supposed to return to Stormwind's Throne room? The fact that that character used to be a clean and noble paladin and has now probably been turned into a mind-scarred, permaburning...monster, makes him worse to look at than an abomination.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about tolerance. What I'm thinking is how such a presence (come on, even Wrynn's stomach will churn every time he looks at Fordragon) will translate into the Alliance's modus operandi. He seems to remain noble and stoic, but I'd be very dissappointed if he didn't come out of the Lich King's torture session (assuming he does) a changed man. He should be molten on the inside as well, his temper and all.
On another subject, it's probably today that we get to know how the airship battle starts. I searched the database the other day, and the name of the Horde's airship captain, Blackscar, came up. I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to put Garrosh's "Kill the pink-skins" agenda ahead of the threat that is the Lich King.
And to show I'm not building this theory on thin air, there's a battlefield full of corpses at the entrance to Icecrown, where the Horde ambushed an Alliance offensive against the Scourge, instead of lending a hand.
Edit reason 1: Gunship, not Airship, although it's not exactly wrong.
Edit reason 2: @Airraid - You're right, I stand corrected.
Bolvar, though, wasn't "plagued". This plague, as far as we know, doesn't turn anyone into undead, it's more of a poison or toxin - not really a disease. And even if the Forsaken plague was simpler than the Scourge's, it can't be reverted, as it insta-kills anytone who isn't a Lich King.
You must understand, young <race>, that cleansing the body in favor of life anew is something well within my grasp... removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body, however, is beyond the scope of the powers that I control.
So the red dragons must've still set their "guns" on Life Anew mode. It means, I think, "flowers where dead flesh first was", so to speak. They had no intention of saving anyone there, scarred body or not. They just torched the place, probably to prevent the Lich King from later on rising some of the Horde and Alliance's best troops. Incidentaly, their breath seems to make flowers grow...
So, Bolvar got bio-nuked with a rapid-killing toxin, which he inhaled for a long time. We saw him succumb to it and shrivel (I still think if it was an optical illusion, but I guess not). Then he got torched by a red dragon sweep. Isn't he probably dead? Undead, more specifically. He could've released himself from the Lich King's grasp at some point - or never having fallen to it, which is indeed extraordinary - but I don't think there's a chance of him being alive any more. Which takes us to: Should he survive Icecrown, where could he go? Would Wrynn accept him?
Maybe the real tragedy will be that the molten, immolated Bolvar is still fully conscious and uncorrupted, but will NOT be accepted back into society by Wrynn or anyone else. This is fairly dark, but what if "leaving something behind" means we actually kill the uncorrupted but deeply scarred Bolvar?
I kind of wish they hadn't brought back Saurfang jr. and Bolvar for Icecrown. While it would mean that they would've had to come up with something else, somehow the impact of them actually being gone would've been greater, especially considering how pointless their deaths were, really.
I sort of agree. The impact of a sudden death of a popular character with no rebound is often overlooked and somewhat rare in fantasy.
While Saurfang Jr. in particular is a character that I'm glad is coming back in some way, I definitely agree that he and/or Bolvar simply being dead and gone would have had a lot of impact.
That's how one of us might take those returns, since we know they'll be back. Blizzard's thinking of the pang Jr's darkish return will have on papa Saurfang. I'm guessing we've never seen him get really angry. Orc-angry.
As for Bolvar, it probably has to do with him playing some key role after we rescue him. Or, if we fail to rescue him, his turning and subsequent defeat will symbolize the end of the "Alliance-Horde" truce illusions.
Fan time: Secretly, and although being killed by his son would be the most meaningful way for Saurfang to die - killed by the Alliance also sounds good - it wouldn't be that worse to see Saurfang actually putting his own son out of his misery and then proceeding to do something...well, Saurfangish. Like what he did in Borean Tundra, to a Necromancer and his batch of plague-bearers.
I sort of agree. The impact of a sudden death of a popular character with no rebound is often overlooked and somewhat rare in fantasy.
While Saurfang Jr. in particular is a character that I'm glad is coming back in some way, I definitely agree that he and/or Bolvar simply being dead and gone would have had a lot of impact.
It's an easy card to play, but it can also be justified by this: building up a character involves building a rapport or relationship between that character and the player. While yes, killing a character and leaving them dead can have a strong emotional impact (ref. General Leo in Final Fantasy 6, or arguably Aeris in FF7) which can be diminished by bringing them back to life, it's also important that the time and effort spent on building up a character doesn't appear to go to waste when the character just gets offed senselessly. That just makes the playerbase shy away from caring about these incredibly mortal supporting characters.
Inventing something new to replace Bolvar/Saurfang Jr. in ICC wouldn't have the same emotional resonance, because we wouldn't have as long of a relationship with them. We could argue that there are alot of other threads that Blizzard could have picked up (I have no idea what the hell the point was in bringing back Muradin if he's just going to bite it again in ICC) but the point is that they build up Saurfang Jr. and Bolvar because they wanted us to care about them, care about their deaths, and care about them being brought back in ICC.
There's a lot of ways this could be handled well... suddenly I'm imagining Molten Bolvar wielding an eternally-burning Ashbringer.
10/20/09, 12:29 PM
