We see The Lich Kings death animation, the Helm of Domination clearly drops and falls to Arthas' side. What if Lavaman/Bolvar appeared and took the helm, then went into exile. But we never found out the answer to why he took it....
Did he put the Helm on and become the new Lich King? Did he take it so he could destroy it? Is he safe-keeping it to prevent someone else wearing it? Whats his real motives, can we still trust him anyway? What a burning end to the expansion that'd be, with those cliff-hanger questions lingering unanswered. (Pun intended)
I do think the issue of what will happen to the helm is an important one; however I do think the situation you have provided would be a bit of a cop-out on Blizzards behalf as in my opinion that's very close to simply recycling Arthas' 'life-story'.
A devout paladin, put through immense psychological strain (Arthas' ongoing battle against the undead in WC3 time / Arthas attempting to 'turn' Bolvar) who then takes up a 'weapon' (Arthas: Frostmourne / Bolvar: Helm of Domination) believing it will help their people achieve a common goal (Arthas: Kill Mal'ganis and the scourge in general / Bolvar: Protect humanity from the emergance of another LK). Yet ultimately they end up corrupted by the power of said weapons.
Of course the last part could be easily swapped out for Bolvar taking the Helm with all intent to be the next big cheese; either way I still feel it's far too similar too Arthas' rise to becoming the Lich King.
Edit:
There was a comment on youtube in that first link to the dying Arthas animation. Someone had been able to glean some information from a Blizzard employee at Blizzcon. It said that as Arthas dies, and loses his "crown", all the Undead of the world suddenly go berserk. Just as Tirion prepares to take up the helm, "someone we thought dead will take one for the team"
This is pretty interesting, if true then I guess this could mean Bolvar sacrificing himself to destroy the Helm. Possibly similar to Tirion destroying Arthas' heart at the end of the whole Matthias Lehner Q line, which pretty much insta-gibbed Tirion; possibly Bolvar destroying the Heml would be enough to finish him?
Unless of course there is anyone else likely to fit the description "someone we thought dead", who would make sense in that situation.
In all honesty, Bolvar's sheer miserable looks and mind-rape he's been subjected to (to which I hope there at least some consequences) lead me to think he won't be coming back with us after Arthas is defeated. And I don't mean he'll become the Lich King or anything. To me, he clearly seems to be on the end road.
Wrynn will not accept him, that's almost sure, especially because he's an undead. He'd sooner put him out of his misery. Unless, as I said, he's not miserable but instead has, after months of being subject to torture by the most powerful villain around, right now, kept his mind shining bright. Also, he died and is on fire. All the time. While this may seem a testament to Fordragon's strength, it's utterly incongruent and another step on the way to gimping the Lich King (even more) and creating a uber good guy (another).
Bolvar's strong and stoic, ok. But he's not known to be one of the top tier characters. And while he's now probably impervious to a great deal of pain, he also lost his Light powers, and has yet to be empowered by the Lich King - at least I hope Arthas is smart enough not to empower someone before turning him.
While it's fun to see one or two "All-Pwning" characters, for themajority of them, their strength and relevance should lie on their role in the story. Was Saurfang Jr. a good warrior, a fair leader and a great promise for the Horde? Yes. But how will he be remembered? Most likely because of giving two heart attacks to his father. At his death and in his unexpected return as the Deathbringer. And it remains to see if it isn't Jr. who puts an end to the Saurfang family tree for good.
Why make Bolvar another Saurfang? Especially when the latter's "myth" was greatly powered by "jokes". We rarely see him demonstrate how good he is. And now I see some people almost expecting Bolvar to be throttling Arthas with his own hands and latter one facing Deathwing head-on. These expectations are as reasonable as mine, no doubt, but I think the creation of heroes should be done with the utmost care. Wouldn't Wrynn killing Bolvar at the latter's request, and much to his disgust and sorrow, be more impacting? Or the Lich King finally deciding to kill Bolvar in an extremely cruel way?
As Onyxia says in her TCG card: This world has enough heroes.
Wrynn accepted the Death Knights back into the Alliance, just because Bolvar is Undead or otherwise does not mean that Varian will forget his service while he was alive, or what he means to Anduin.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
Yes, he accepted them, but then had his military forces throw said Death Knights into suicide missions unknowingly.
Were Anduin the king, I'd have an easier time believing in Bolvar's return.
Right now I'm actually "scared" of what Blizzard plans to do to Bolvar's mind. It's just not natural to endure all those months of mental torture and keep the same "I'll never join you", arguably with more ellipsis.
If they ultimately decide Bolvar is still the same only with a more tanned look, then there's a chance of re-acceptance. But the way I see it, he should be as scarred as a death-knight, mind-wise. Do you think Varian would accept someone who goes "Kill them" at every problem? I'm oversimplifying, of course, but that's the basis of their modus operandi.
And him being undead IS a big enough reason to never return to Stormwind. Most "new breed" Death Knights aren't undead - those that are are probably enlisting with the Forsaken or the Horde in general. Many of the Alliance, I'm sure, feel like Forsaken are just Scourge by any other name (which doesn't mean they like the Scarlet Crusade), and that's something that leads to an increasing hate for the Horde. How would they - and everyone else still traumatized by the Wrathgate incident - react to their king having an undead inside his castle? Next to his son. Or even as a field commander.
There's the example of Zeliek, who, for lack of a better solution, had his body controlled. Still, his mental torture was done by Kel'thuzad, noticeably weaker than the Lich King. It's a twisty logic, but it's possible Arthas would employ this method on Fordragon, if everything else fails.
Edit: When I say " said death knights" in the first paragraph, I know only Thassarian is put into that situation, in-game, but there's a "special ops" unit in which Thassarian's enlisted. However, I think it's safe to assume other death knights would be in the same situation.
Actually, what if Bolvar takes a road similiar to Tal'Rasha from Diablo 2? If (and that's a big IF) the comment on Youtube was partially correct, we get Bolvar taking the helm in order to use the incredible willpower he seem to have to keep the Undead supressed, rather than going berserk? That would again create a prison for the Lich King, where he's locked in an eternal struggle of wills with Bolvar. This creates a status quo, where neither can gain enough control to "win". Thus, for gameplay reasons the current Undead in the world would remain, but no new invasions would be launched.
It also sets him up as a variable in the world, an outcast which can be used as a proper "anti-hero" (I think they squandered Illidan for this).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think that Bolvar actually died because the Reds kept him alive by burning him. This is why, in my mind, he was able to put up any sort of resistance to Arthas in the first place. This is different than Saurfang, who was clearly killed and thus would be easily risen. There's not really any precedence for someone being killed and yet resisting becoming an undead servent to the Lich King. Sylvannas, for instance, is killed and risen without any hint of resisting her new master, and this is done by Arthas pre-merging.
Of course, this theory has some problems. If death is really all that's needed to raise someone into servitude, why the Lich King didn't just kill Bolvar when he was proving difficult to turn is a little strange. Maybe he couldn't be killed because of the Reds lingering power?
Some posters in this thread (me included) don't feel the slightest urge to see the Lich King again in the nearest future.
Yet the idea of a limbo created by the "clash of wills" between the Lich King and Bolvar does seem like a good suggestion. It offers us a truly great sacrifice by Bolvar (he'll need all his willpower and concentration to keep someone as wily as Ner'zhul in check) while opening doors for future usage. Who knows, we may need help in the long term.
For that to work, though, Ner'zhul's essence would still have to be "around", something which Rise of the Lich King seems to dismiss.
However, with the discovery of the Frostmourne subzone...who knows?
The thing is, as someone who's played Alliance for basically forever even though Bolvar may not have been a strong character in lore he definitely was a strong presence in the game for a long time. Bolvar shuffled you through many defining quest/story development phases in classic WoW and those of us who played back there considered him quite high on the "badass" scale.
Bringing him back for WotLK was quite cool for me, because he's always come across as one of the strongest characters actually in the Alliance currently. So I'm not sure I buy the arguments that he can't play a major role in the story because he's not an important character in the lore--he has kinda become an important character in the lore through his role in the game since launch. Obviously, if he is strong enough to resist The Lich King for the entire time as per Arthas' comments on PTR, he's being defined as being rather powerful.
I find it ironic, though, considering that one of Bolvar's quests in vanilla was to kill Nathanos Blightcaller due to him becoming Forsaken, and then his quest completion line of, "It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars."
That said, I'm not sure that Wrynn would screw over Bolvar. After all, he owes Bolvar quite a lot for watching over his kingdom and son in his absence. I'm not sure it's the type of position where he'd so easily dismiss that, even if Wrynn has low tolerance nowadays.
Yes, he accepted them, but then had his military forces throw said Death Knights into suicide missions unknowingly.
We only know that Thassarian was sent on a "suicide mission". We have no idea if other Death Knights were treated in the same way, plus that particular order might well have come from General Arlos, when he was (most likely) under the control of Counselot Talbot (or Prince valanar). It really doesn't say anything about the general treatment of Death Knights in the Alliance military.
Wrynn accepted the Death Knights back into the Alliance, just because Bolvar is Undead or otherwise does not mean that Varian will forget his service while he was alive, or what he means to Anduin.
Which was a massive cop out in the first place considering they did the exact opposite with the Forsaken.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Bolvar's strong and stoic, ok. But he's not known to be one of the top tier characters. And while he's now probably impervious to a great deal of pain, he also lost his Light powers, and has yet to be empowered by the Lich King - at least I hope Arthas is smart enough not to empower someone before turning him.
As Onyxia says in her TCG card: This world has enough heroes.
Lost his light powers? Did you just make this up yourself or are you quoting something? One of the few in game texts we have shows that Fordring saying that Light has no limits. It wouldn't make sense to then say that the light has left him. Lets wait for more evidence of Bolvar being alive or dead before we start rebuking his light powers.
Some posters in this thread (me included) don't feel the slightest urge to see the Lich King again in the nearest future.
Yet the idea of a limbo created by the "clash of wills" between the Lich King and Bolvar does seem like a good suggestion. It offers us a truly great sacrifice by Bolvar (he'll need all his willpower and concentration to keep someone as wily as Ner'zhul in check) while opening doors for future usage. Who knows, we may need help in the long term.
For that to work, though, Ner'zhul's essence would still have to be "around", something which Rise of the Lich King seems to dismiss.
However, with the discovery of the Frostmourne subzone...who knows?
There would be a fire/ice thing going on there. Ner'zhul was into the frost stuff just as much as Arthas is. Not to mention it was the Red Dragon's fire that got us to this point, and Alexstraza's cryptic conversation. So we may have a Life (represented by a Red Dragon breath infused Bolivar) countering Death (whatever is left after Arthas is kaput).
Speaking of Dragons, from the stuff a few pages back, Kalcegos seems to be really buddy buddy with the Reds, which is a bit surprising considering the Nexus War just ended and how involved the Red were in that. Maybe he did find some way not to participate in the war after all.
Alot of Horde players don't get why the Alliance seems to care for Bolvar so much; I think a decent analogy is something along the lines of your favourite mid-card pro-wrestler. He's got the potential to be huge, and gets involved in some pretty interesting storylines once in awhile, but the big juicy stories get given to the people who are already main-eventers. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking, but at the least with the way things have shaped up so far, and could continue to go, Bolvar may be the only one who ccould survive a particularly nasty blast from Deathwing, making him Azeroth's last(?) hope, catapaulting him into the echelon of the main characters.
Lets wait for more evidence of Bolvar being alive or dead before we start rebuking his light powers.
Agreed. Zeliek retained *his* Light powers, for want of an example. After all, Eligor Dawnbringer described him as "so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle."
And him being undead IS a big enough reason to never return to Stormwind. Most "new breed" Death Knights aren't undead - those that are are probably enlisting with the Forsaken or the Horde in general.
...
I'm fairly certain you're wrong concerning the classification of Death Knights. If you recall the starting area, Razuvious is literally overseeing the reanimation of corpses from all races for the purposes of creating new Death Knights. Like the Forsaken they're "humanoid" in-game for balance reasons, but lore-wise they should be undead.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
@sickening: Last I read wowwiki on Forsaken, it said the Light couldn't use them as conduit. It simply did not flow through them.
Be it because they're inherently prone to "evil" or because they're undead, I'm not sure, but I assume Bolvar's died and been raised, and with all the mental torture and how it (should have) affected his mind, it's very likely his scope powers doesn't include the Light anymore.
Being a Light wielder doesn't depend uniquely on the character's "good nature". As the Nobundo story (and also Akama's) shows, biological or environmental factors might play a part on preventing someone from calling to the Light.
Also, I hope I haven't come out as a Bolvar detractor here. My fear is not that his grandeur (which is unquestionable) is recognized, I just hope Blizzard is careful when leading him to glory, if that's their intention. "Godly" characters tend to lose appeal and become too otherwordly for us to relate to them. For example, if Kollar's idea comes to be - Bolvar donning the Lich King's helm in hopes of containing its power - I hope the effort and strain he needs to put into that task is noticeable, rather than "I'll just here and keep talking to the chap inside. Farewell, champs". Such drastic a rise in "tier" of heroism and glory can be awkward.
The comic does this right (who'd say), in my opinion. Bolvar's a good warrior and seems to be a competent leader, but he too was unable to see through Onyxias' mind control and doesn't go around beating the crap out of her when the illusion's shattered. Giving him the power to go one-on-one with the Lich King, even mentally, is quite dangerous and prone to usage of the "That's just how it is, deal with it" logic, when everyone starts asking how could Onyxia do what the Lich King can't.
A comparison: Bolvar is obviously "bigger" than Saurfang Jr. Yet not bigger than Garrosh. Not saying I agree, but character protagonism seems to bring power with it.
What seems to spring when analysing Bolvar's feat up until now is his sense of resilience and resistance to...well, agony. I think it should stick to that, rather than sheer power (unless he becomes a Deathbringer). Which is why I support Kollar's idea for an ending to the ICC raid.
Edit: Just to stress that while I'll stand for my opinions while they seem logical, I've assumed being wrong numerous times in the past and won't be adamant when defending them. For example, I assume there's the possibility of Blizzard saying Bolvar is still alive and with his powers intact. I just can't put a "maybe" or "I assume" into every sentence I write. I say this for the sake of keeping things cool in this thread.
It seems that Arthas has crossed over into typical archvillian lines of thought now. During levelling, whenever Arthas appears he seems to be toying with you, either treating you like an amusing insect (Alliance quest in Howling Fjord) or trying to lead you to the dark side (Drakkuru). The one time we see him REALLY pissed off at you (when Tirion destroys his heart) he's about to utterly destroy you when you get teleported out.
Now, he wants you dead ("You will suffer in eternal unrest", "Die well, fool"), but instead of getting his hands dirty he summons some mooks and teleports out. Someone needs to pay attention to the Evil Overlord list . . . .
Also, I just realized something - he says you will suffer "As [Alexandros] does." Does this mean we'll see the elder Mograine again?
We have far too little information to making an assumption that he is even dead, much less undead. The only clear cut text we have is that he is alive. Only the state of which he is alive isn't clear.
You could at least make it sound like you are speculating.
Also, I just realized something - he says you will suffer "As [Alexandros] does." Does this mean we'll see the elder Mograine again?
His spirit, probably. It's been brought up that when Mograine Elder shows up at the battle of Light's Hope, and helps Darion break free and cleanse Ashbringer, Arthas shows up, the imagine dissipates, and he says: "He's mine now..."
So I would imagine that Alexandros' Soul is currently trapped within Frostmourne.
If the Frostmourne subzone indeed turns out to be us within the blade, it would be awesome to see some of these tortured souls in there.
@sickening: Last I read wowwiki on Forsaken, it said the Light couldn't use them as conduit. It simply did not flow through them.
Be it because they're inherently prone to "evil" or because they're undead, I'm not sure, but I assume Bolvar's died and been raised, and with all the mental torture and how it (should have) affected his mind, it's very likely his scope powers doesn't include the Light anymore.
Being a Light wielder doesn't depend uniquely on the character's "good nature". As the Nobundo story (and also Akama's) shows, biological or environmental factors might play a part on preventing someone from calling to the Light.
Erm - the wowwiki is often incorrect, and in this case it's referencing one character in a novel and extrapolating from that individual case. We know full well the Forsaken can still use "the Light" - there's a horde of holy priests out there for the Forsaken, and there's a Forsaken champion of the Light at Light's Hope Chapel in the Eastern Plaguelands. Plus there's the entire BE storyline, and all the Scarlet Crusade stuff. You don't have to be good, or even Holy, to wield the Light. It's a force of power that does things we consider "good" (healing, protection), but it's not some all-powerful god energy like a lot of players think it is. It's still used by many unpleasant and evil characters, and your ability to use it seems more linked to personal belief and willpower rather than any sort of good / evil judgement of a person.
Furthermore, it's worth remembering that the Forsaken are not just freed undead. They are immune to the destruction visited by all other undead on the Green Dragonshrine, for example - the quest talks of them Forsaken "redeemed" by Sylvannas.
And him being undead IS a big enough reason to never return to Stormwind. Most "new breed" Death Knights aren't undead - those that are are probably enlisting with the Forsaken or the Horde in general.
The player death knights are undead lore-wise and I thought that it was pretty common knowledge considering we see Rasuvius raising dead Alliance/Horde during the starting zone (not to mention that you being dead is mentioned in quests).
Originally Posted by Jaconis
Sylvannas, for instance, is killed and risen without any hint of resisting her new master, and this is done by Arthas pre-merging.
Sylvanas definitely did her best to resist Arthas and that was touched upon in the novel. I'd imagine she was one of the first undead who broke free from the weakened Lich King since she is the one who started freeing others to join the Forsaken using her own mental abilities.
Originally Posted by Monocle
Speaking of Dragons, from the stuff a few pages back, Kalcegos seems to be really buddy buddy with the Reds, which is a bit surprising considering the Nexus War just ended and how involved the Red were in that. Maybe he did find some way not to participate in the war after all.
Well we know from Night of the Dragon that Kalecgos did not agree with what Malygos was doing so I'd imagine he just decided to not take part in what he saw as a mistake in his own flight.
Originally Posted by Maledict
Erm - the wowwiki is often incorrect, and in this case it's referencing one character in a novel and extrapolating from that individual case. We know full well the Forsaken can still use "the Light" - there's a horde of holy priests out there for the Forsaken, and there's a Forsaken champion of the Light at Light's Hope Chapel in the Eastern Plaguelands. Plus there's the entire BE storyline, and all the Scarlet Crusade stuff. You don't have to be good, or even Holy, to wield the Light. It's a force of power that does things we consider "good" (healing, protection), but it's not some all-powerful god energy like a lot of players think it is. It's still used by many unpleasant and evil characters, and your ability to use it seems more linked to personal belief and willpower rather than any sort of good / evil judgement of a person.
Furthermore, it's worth remembering that the Forsaken are not just freed undead. They are immune to the destruction visited by all other undead on the Green Dragonshrine, for example - the quest talks of them Forsaken "redeemed" by Sylvannas.
The Forsaken using holy magic in game is for gameplay reasons. Lorewise the Forsaken use a twisted antithesis of the Holy Light called the Forgotten Shadow which is their version of the Church of Holy Light. Any Forsaken who use the Holy Light are exception like Zeliek but the Light no longer answers to the majority of them.
Actually, what if Bolvar takes a road similiar to Tal'Rasha from Diablo 2? If (and that's a big IF) the comment on Youtube was partially correct, we get Bolvar taking the helm in order to use the incredible willpower he seem to have to keep the Undead supressed, rather than going berserk? That would again create a prison for the Lich King, where he's locked in an eternal struggle of wills with Bolvar. This creates a status quo, where neither can gain enough control to "win". Thus, for gameplay reasons the current Undead in the world would remain, but no new invasions would be launched.
Bolvar certainly could end up being a Tal'Rasha figure. If the Blizzard quote was true, it would satisfy the conditions nicely as you said.
For Horde players, you probably won't understand why Alliance players think of Bolvar so highly, unless you've levelled as Alliance. Especially if you levelled as Alliance during Vanilla WoW.
Basically you escort the NPC to the King - and when Onyxia appears and her ~10 guards turn into dragons, Bolvar solo's them all. Back in the day, this was extremely cool. Getting your Onyxia key was a very big deal! There's a bunch of other nice quests Bolvar related to, but this was one of the most exciting during Vanilla WoW.
I think this is the perfect chance for Blizzard to let players be a part of a dynamic story in WoW. We have a charater we have loved for years, who could potentially do some incredible act (a la Tel'rasha) and we will get to see him do it - and we'll see first hand, how he the character has changed from the original guy we saw years ago.
Has there been any explanation of where new Forsaken will be coming from after Cataclysm? Death Knights can be made to work into the same timeline they are in now, given the whole instanced starting area and all, but a new undead character will be starting in a world post-Cataclysm. More relevantly, it will have started in a world after the fall of the Lich King. If we know anything about the lore regarding new Forsaken, then it could hint at the topic at hand--the fate of the Lich King (as a separate entity from Arthas), the Scourge, etc. If there's no LK or Scourge running around, where would all the new Forsaken be coming from?
@Maledict: On Leonid, the undead character you refer to, is it confirmed that he's a paladin? Or "just" a warrior?
On the usage of the Holy Light by the Forsaken:
The figure wore the robes of a priest of the Holy Light - not uncommon among the Forsaken, who mocked the order by wearing their garments and allowing the sacred robes to be soiled and tainted by their bloody work. Somehow, Andarin sensed, this figure was different; the robes seemed to be in almost tolerable condition, even if the body wearing them was not.[8] "You wear the robes of a priest, Trevor. Why do you not channel the Light in battle, if you seek redemption?" The priest seemed to wince at that. "While I refuse to wield the shadow, the Light has refused me, or so it seems. And so, I am truly a broken man; I learned to wield spears of Light like Uther's knights did in the Second. Without the Light, I am unarmed and unarmored -- but not entirely helpless, as you see." Andarin couldn't help but feel a little sorry for the fallen priest, if his story was true. Perhaps a man, no matter how virtuous, could not channel holy power while in such a form."[9]
While they can no longer use the Holy Light [16]and have since learned how to use the Shadow; the priests teach that there must be a balance between Light and Shadow, and members must learn the Light as well[17] but to never forget they were born from the Shadow. However, it seems that they learn about the Light in order to better combat members who practice it, and defend against its undead damaging power.[18] Being intelligent undead, the Forsaken fully understand the limitations and vulnerabilities associated with unlife. One of these disadvantages is that they can be turned, rebuked or even commanded by powerful positive or negative energy forces. Naturally, the Forsaken are always on the lookout for ways to limit or negate this vulnerability.[19]
Though some have apparently been able to learn how to use the light.[17][20]
It seems some...exceptional individuals (the criteria is unknown) can use the Light, although the briefness of the sentence ("They learned to. Period") suggest some sort of quick explanation for the fact that we can have Holy Undead Priests in-game.
Blood Elves are syphoning the energy from the Naaru, it's not like the being can choose who gets empowered.
My one question is the Scarlet Crusade...
References do get a bit mixed up on this. In the first orcish invasion trilogy, Turalyon has some trouble with the Light on account of his somewhat reluctant approach to the subject, unlike Uther and the others' fervent ways. In Across the Dark Portal, though, he's pretty much a Light Juggernaut, as he's fully accepted the Light and its ways.
But then Nobundo and Akama were just cut off, even though they were still more-than-sentient and the latter called to the Light with all his strength, and because of being "infected" with the red mist. So the attribution of Light powers is at least...confusing.
The Light is as capable of healing as of hurting, we know that full well.
Perhaps it's indeed to early to assume Bolvar has lost his powers, but the fact is, things don't look too good for him on that account. He has probably died and been raised (like Forsaken, who are tipically unable to deal with the Light) and pretty much had his mind screwed (like Nobundo). Two factors in favour don't mean he'll indeed be deprived of his powers, but shows there is basis for assuming it.
Forsaken may be immune to the Green Dragonshrine effect because the Greens decided to make the effect so, I'd think. It's not necessarily innate.
Plus, we all know Forsaken aren't good or redeemed, save for some (very few) individuals. They are effectively freed undead, who don't like what they are, are usually incapable of doing or feeling any good, and "dislike" the Lich King for being the source of their predicament.
But they're surely not redeemed. Some sources point to Sylvannas as being capable of doing the same as Putress for a cause worthy enough.
10/22/09, 7:12 AM
