The progression does seem to be "Let's try and stop the war between us and the Horde/Alliance by murdering the ones on that airship on our way to Bolvar."

On a side note, I missed the Twitter Blizzchat. Not that I missed much, apparently -- almost every question they answered was either stupid, already answered somewhere else on the Internet (Most likely collected in any number of sticky threads in the same forums the answers were posted in) or answered ambiguously.

Edit: Muradin especially seems crazed. Hmm.

Perhaps it goes back to what A'dal said in that Bridenbrad questline: "the Light does not abandon its champions", which presumably includes most paladins. If we take that literally, and assume the Light is stronger than Arthas, then it follows that Arthas can't take one of the Light's champions, he has to convince the champion to abandon the Light first. He could of course just kill Bolvar and animate the body, but then he wouldn't have a champion, just another minion.

I don't get why Blizzard chose half the questions they did since about half of them were asking things that were said at Blizzcon.

Honestly why they would take questions like this is beyond me.

What the gunship encounter really needs is some sort of agent provocateur, someone to put out the flames with gasoline.
Muradin and Saurfang should be shouting at each other from ship to ship, maybe each claiming the killing blow, maybe shouting encouragements, maybe even inspecting the cracks in the ranks of undead; whatever. Then something unpredictable happens, guns go off, and all of a sudden it's everybody for himself. In fact, I'd actually like it more if the whole thing is sparked of by a gunner getting scared and shooting off a cannon, or by the ship's xenophobic cook throwing a tray of pancake flambes at the other faction's ship, or even Varian/Garrosh's henchman making sure the right faction comes out on top.. It would convey the message that somehow even the inglorius NPCs might get their chance to write history. And it might actually be a good idea; certainly better than going from trying to fix things to blowing each other out of the sky because nobody on those two ships had a ruler on hand

When I seached the database a few days ago I noticed Krom Blackscar, the Orgrim's Hammer captain, being here. And I honestly thought he could be a destabilizing factor - or the Alliance captain, but somehow I think Blackscar would be more prone to it.

Like Enova hinted, Saurfang and Muradin would be shouting at each other when suddendly a cannon fires, per order of Blackscar, and all hell ensues.

Not like this, though. It's not even the fact that this doesn't seem in character for either Saurfang or Muradin...it's the fact that both of them ordered the ships prepped for a greater goal and are now on "Meh, I'd rather kill" mode.

Heh. Hey, both dwarves and orcs are a little bit on the "honor > sense" side when stressed... Saurfang's out for the jerk who killed his boy, and Muradin's clearly got his OWN grudge to settle, so each would seem to be exhibiting what might be called a bit of "Oh HELL NO you ain't killing him, I am, and I'll kick your ass if you try!"

Two NPCs, both personally wronged, both out for revenge AND "oh, uh, right, yeah, victory over the Scourge, right, totally that too" so they're fighting over who gets to kick Arthas' ass, and doing so in a not-particularly-rational manner. Makes sense to me.

That questline actually makes me very worried that Icecrown Citadel will end in some horrible kind of Naaru ex machina with A'dal descending from on high (after spending nearly the majority of this expansion pack floating in Shattrath) and whisk away the spirit of Bolvar - and perhaps even Arthas - so they can rejoin the light.

In regards to the Skybreaker theme, don't forget that we're missing the entire build up of the plot leading up to the event (i.e. the story that will develop during/after the Lady Deathwhisper encounter).

I think it's pretty safe to speculate that while things seem good at the beginning, and they're willing to work together to save Bolvar, sometime around the Lady Deathwhisper encounter Saurfang Sr. discovers that his son has been risen as a Death Knight. All of a sudden a shared quest for revenge becomes even more personal and he's not willing to let anyone, including Muradin, stop him from (a) seeing (what remains of) his son, and (b) extracting revenge on Arthas. Think about it from a father's point of view, which is definitely how they'd be writing this. Nothing will get in his way, except for 10/25 members of the opposing faction... Even then, that may only slow him down. I'm sure he'll find his way into the room at some stage during the alliance encounter with Deathbringer Saurfang. Unless, that is, the angle they're taking into Cataclysm is that the Alliance denied Saurfang Sr. the chance see/redeem/slay the risen form of his son, fueling a newborn hatred of the Alliance and providing a catalyst to war.

Based on the other events concerning the Alliance in BT, Thassarian was most likely sent on his suicide mission by a member of the Cult of the Damned, anyway.

That seems somewhat odd that he'd go apeshit and allow full blow war to errupt from that, considering his stance against "going down that dark path" in his conversation with Garrosh in Warsong hold, and also his reassurance before and after The Battle For Undercity.

I think it's going to take much more than his son being raised as a Deathknight to drive him to abandon all of his better judgement and stances from before. It leads me to think that whatever drives Saurfang to war inside IIC is going to result in his death. I don't see him even after Arthas dying sitting by idly while Garrosh goes to war with the Alliance, unless the reasons are severe, or he's dead.

You sure the Forsaken "immediately" slaughtered everyone and that it didn't go more like this?:

Forsaken: Hey guys, sorry we were kinda evil there for awhile, but it was because we were being controlled by the Lich King. That's over now, though. Want to be friends?

Lordaeronite #1: Ewww, get away from me!
Lordaeronite #2: Lulz, sux to be u!
Garithos: Die evil scum!

Forsaken: Rawr, I'm going to tear your face off now!

I mean, I can understand that nonacceptance and mortal threats would be reason enough to turn on their former friends. I know if my neighbors were trying to kill me, I'd probably stop being friends with them, too.


On another note: I'm in total agreement that the motive for the gunship battle seems out of place as it stands. I was hoping for something better since it appeared both sides were trying to strengthen their relationships at the start of the instance. No matter what Blizzard does, there will always be people that are disappointed, but this just seems lazy.

@Wyldthang:

Sylvanas' forces were quite hostile to all others around her the moment from the very beginning. She immediately ordered her banshees to possess many factions who had nothing to do with their enslavement (ogres, gnolls, bandits, murlocs, etc.) and used them to subdue Varimathras. Then she shamelessly lied to Garithos and his forces, promising them she'd relinquish Lordaeron when the Scourge had been driven from the land. After Garithos' forces aided her in winning her independence, she quickly disposed of them without a second thought. I'm not saying Garithos was innocent--he got far, far less than he deserved--but he had little to do with the actions of the Forsaken apart from being the puppet of Detheroc. They've always been a dubious faction in word and deed.

Forgive me, I was playing Devil's Advocate. I'm not trying to say the Forsaken are cuddly guys or anything, but I do believe that part of the hostility they displayed to the people of Lordaeron originated from the actions those same people took (ie. you reap what you sow).

People are contrasting the difference between Death Knight and Forsaken acceptance into the factions, so I would think highlighting how the DKs were welcomed virtually immediately by the Alliance versus the cold reception the Forsaken received would be an important distinction.

I think Garithos was just the main problem there on top of the fact that Sylvanas probably had some internal hatred towards any living humans just since she blames Lordaeron for what happened to her and Quel'thelas. Darion on the other hand wasn't as vengeful and pushed that upon his Death Knights. I guess it is also since the Alliance Death Knights are risen members of the current Alliance (and had Tirions backing) and were more easily accepted by Varian while the only information Varian had on the Forsaken was that they slaughtered the living that were left.

Or it's part of their ***ing-with-the-dataminers'-heads strategy. You don't put up a fake animation like this and then just ignore it like a real fake.
The achievements and the recent Twitter chat all say "defeat Arthas", not "kill" - though they do for the other bosses/encounters, too, I take that as we don't really kill him in the way of bringing the NPC to 0 HP, prompting him to start his death animation.

Just developing a quick theory here, what if the Lich King's control over the Scourge, besides "raw" necromancy, relies on their "souls", especially for more important characters in the Scourge (a.k.a. named NPCs) to prevent the victims from gaining too much influence over their bodies again, but also granting them a certain freedom of decision how to take out the Lich King's orders - else all Scourge would be pretty mindless.
Slaying someone with Frostmourne would be the primary way to acquire/control a soul, though that of course can't be said for the countless minions, especially ones created far away from Icecrown, so there are "facilities" to extract the souls and transfer them to Frostmourne.
It also explains why the Forsaken are free and cannot be retaken again so easily, their souls somehow got free during Illidan's assault and thus the weakening of the Lich King. Maybe something similar can be said for the Knights of the Ebon Blade, because of the cleansing of the Ashbringer that happened during the battle at Light's Hope Chapel.

Exactly. Also, I don't think he holds a much greater grudge on the Lich King than before, his son fell in battle, sure against a much more powerful foe, but he wasn't cowardly murdered, as it was Jr who charged at the LK.

Are we really sure these new Death Knights are risen? I remember discussing this in the official forums *cough* and at the time we came to the conclusion they might just be "souless". Or much like Necromancers.

Arthas, for example, didn't die (for all we know) at the time of his turning into a Death Knight. Frostmourne leeched his soul and...that's it.

Anyway, on with the subject:

Forsaken don't seem particularly capable of feeling anything other than "bad feelings", apart from a few exceptional individuals, like Leonid at Light's Hope. In a way, they are grief, anger and, to a point, "evilness" incarnate - Scourge undead are, too, but they are mind controlled.

Apparently, though, them being ordered to attack Gilneas shows they can learn respect the hard way.

Agreed, Saurfang knowing about his son having become a Deathbringer makes a difference.

Well, he's been an Alliance commanding figure before, and does have some justifiable grudges with Arthas. Then again, it might make more sense to let Varian trudge along.

At least Horde forces are used to Saurfang.

Muradin, though, doesn't seem too psycho about the whole situation, to be honest. I think he's actually being a bit too civilized for someone who just got his chance at revenge for his near death and after living with a more savage breed of dwarves for all this time.

I think you're overcivilizing Saurfang when it comes to his rage. Sure, he wouldn't put his men's security in check because of his grudge, but orcs are naturally prone to rage, to an extent that only trolls come on par. I wouldn't put it past him to eventually go berserk at some point in the raid.

Also, if the Alliance wins the Gunship battle, does this mean Alliance players have no chance to see Saurfang Jr. and his dad meeting?

Quite the loss.

Concerning the Gunship battle:

I am going out on a Limb here, but with the upcoming change of Leadership within the Horde, I think it’s highly possible, that the actual attack is entirely Horde motivated.

As long as we do not know how exactly our new Warchief comes to Power and what his intentions will be when he actually seizes it, we can speculate what the prelude to this event will be.
As we see during the Fraction Champions Encounter, however controversial Lore-wise, there is no love lost between the Warsong Clan and the Alliance. Although, even Garrosh has to admit that the Alliance still packs a mean punch and that their Fighters are not to be underestimated.
Now, when the Gunships make their Move against Icecrown Citadel, who will be aboard these two Ships? The cream of the Crops, the absolute Elite of both Alliance and Horde. The Fighters who battled their way through everything Nordrend and the Lich King could throw at them and still came out on top. And during this Advance, the heroes of the opposing Fraction are sitting Ducks, vulnerable not only because their attention is turned entirely towards the upcoming battle, but because they are in reach of the own big guns. Now, even if may fall during the fight with the Lich King, afterwards, these Fighters of the opposing Fraction still pose an immense threat if it should come to another War between Alliance and Horde.

And now there is the unique possibility to get rid, not only of the Alliances strongest Fighters, but also of a Force that might just claim some of the Glory after killing Arthas.
I know the same motivation, killing of the enemies’ elite Fighters, could also drive the Alliance to open fire on the Hordes Battleship, but I personally like the idea of the Horde (by Orders of Garrosh) starting the fight better.


Please excuse if my grammar is sometimes a bit off, English is not my native language.

Am I...am I looking at different pictures of the airship fight to everyone else, or something?
The ones I'm seeing go something like this:
Saurfang: Attention Alliance vessel. Back off, we've got first run at this.
Muradin: Sod that, let's turn this into a shooting war instead. Kill the Horde!

Well, I don't think even Saurfang himself expects the Alliance to pull back.

I kind of support what Riptor said: It'd be much more flavourful for the whole Horde-Alliance tension if one of the captains (and I too believe Blackscar of the Orgrim's Hammer is more prone to it) would see the oportunity of fulfilling his leader's agenda and order a salvo fired at the opposite ship at the first opportunity.

As it is, only the possible fact that Saurfang has learned of his son's rising can justify this dialogue. It's not implausible, but right now the whole thing seems out of place for a raid seeking to be Blizzard's lore-crown of glory.

I am guessing it will probably be like Illidan - we beat him down, Maiev finished him. In this case, I'm hoping Sylvanas gets the killing blow (by the way, the leaked death animation does suggest something like that - the way Arthas falls, it doesn't look like he's being cleaved by a melee weapon, nor blasted by a spell... but he could have been hit by an arrow).

It would actually be a very good way to increase Horde/Alliance tension if it happened in front of Jaina or something, especially if she was in the middle of a last attempt to redeem him.

The classic plot mechanic that would make the Horde - Alliance war interesting would be misunderstanding leading to a tragic incident. I'm surprised nobody has suggested insidious subterfuge by Arthas pitting the would be allied invaders against each other. Garrosh is bloodthirsty as is Varian, but I think they'd both rather kill the Lich King before killing each other. There has to be a catalyst for these two powder kegs to go off and it can't just be "they were in the same room."