Only if he dies by accident trying to prevent a terrible incident, and in that act becomes a catalyst for war between the alliance and horde. Saurfang just dying because he and Muradin get into a pissing contest would be a terrible plot point.

I also don't think both faction leaders necessarily have to die and the encounter can be done in such a way that only one of them do. That to me presents a more interesting path lore wise. Blizzard still has to sell the darker, more metal horde to horde players as nobody has really bought into it yet, what better way then to have our heroes fall and alliance ones live?

Nothing about the Garrosh ascendancy would be interesting to horde players if, at least at the start, we didn't believe he is justified in becoming Warchief. Given that I doubt Blizzard wants to launch an expac where an entire faction is completely disinterested in its own story, I think that the events in ICC are going to be far more tragic for the horde then Alliance.

I'm still struggling as to why Muradin is anything to the Alliance anymore. Hasn't he thrown his lot in with the Frost Dwarves? Also is there no suspicion of him? Guy last heard of battling Arthas and thought dead makes a 5 year miraculous recovery and is immediately brought into the highest military circles in the Alliance?

Well, in a battle between two elite forces, that both get their job thoroughly done is acceptable...but wouldn't that, erm...trivialize both those leaders' presence at the battle?

Even if it's done right, I can't see the thing straying too far from both factions' ships drifting, half-wrecked and everyone going "Well, that's a wee bit of a bloody mess we've done there, ain't it?".

You have elements in Icecrown that seem utterly designed for each faction. I fail to see what good all these character-related elements will do if Muradin doesn't get to meet Arthas again or Saurfang doesn't get to see what extraordinary job the Lich King has done with his kid.

Again, if this turns out to be a case of "It's relevant to Cataclysm", the Lich King is probably going down as a failure, no matter how difficult his encounter is. Let Arthas have merit in whatever befalls the good guys in Icecrown. As it was once was when he became a Death Knight.

I like the idea of two conflicting stories that we'll never know the real truth behind, but at the same time I have a hard time buying that this could be the ultimate fate of Saurfang and Muradin.

There's more than enough that can happen in ICC without either getting offed that can result in faction relations getting even worse. I'm putting all of my money on the linchpin being the events of the Arthas encounter. Too many people have too much invested in personally seeing to it that Arthas dies, including Saurfang and Muradin.

I also think too many people are under the impression that Saurfang needs to die for Garrosh to become Warchief.

Muradin was only with the Frost Dwarves because he lost his memory and met up with them while wandering around in the wastes. Once he was reunited with his brothers and got his memory back, he set off straight away to hunt Arthas.

I'm guessing that his status as one of the legendary Bronzebeard brothers (brother to the Dwarven King no less) plus his personal vendetta against Arthas, which Varian would certainly understand, would help his case for leading an Alliance expedition into Icecrown.

@Kaejin: Aye, I remember you stating that Saurfang would serve as a mentor to Garrosh in the Cataclysm to come. I disagreed at the time and, in all honesty, still do. It's not really that I can't see it happening and the Warcraft storyline keeping its coherence. It's just that all the pieces, planets and kittens seem aligned and ready for the ritual that should be (audience-wise) Saurfang's death. His promise-turned-threat son being at Icecrown, the Horde at a turning point (which we know its happening, even if Overlord Saur is adamant in his defense of the old Horde).

I also think he'd never cleave Garrosh in two unless the pup's eyes suddendly started burning red and his warcry turned to "For the Legion". Yet for Saurfang to be at Garrosh's side would need to have the old guy cope with, for example, the eviction of all but two races from the Horde's main city. This is an orc with the right ideas and thought-course, but also a deeply scarred individual who slaughtered children.

Of course, his martial and strict mindset have helped him somewhat go through with this, but really, it's out of his current character to accept such ratial superiority theories in the (second) Horde he helped build. One possibility I can see for this to happen, though, is either seeing or killing his death knightish son leaving him so scarred he'll turn into a "what needs to be done" guy. Still, I'll admit Garrosh's announced "change" (the extent of which I think is being somewhat overestimated) may lead to thinking the more "moral" Saurfang has a hand on the Cataclysm Horde.

To me, it feels like a waste to bring Muradin back from the dead, give him a few quests and a gushy reunion event in Storm Peaks just to off him again in Icecrown. When it comes down to it, Muradin should play more of a role than that.

Of course, when the Metzen says "we leave a piece of ourselves in the Frozen North" you can tell that he's speaking of a lot of characters leaving something there, and their suffering being reflected in our interactions with them down the line. If Magni were to lose his brother just after getting him back, that would certainly pain him and give some pathos to the Dwarves, who came north not only for the war but also to explore their history. Of course, what I'd really like to see is a discussion of the succession crisis in Ironforge, but I don't know if it'll be addressed anytime soon.

Maybe sooner than you think. If Blackrock mountain is going to receive an overhaul in Cataclysm, it doesn't seem unlikely that Moria and her child will somehow be addressed.

I'm more curious how Blizzard would display dorf children (specifically Moira's) myself. They show some all of the taller races children and even have babies for more but the general consensus that I've heard is that dorf/Gnome/Goblin children are perceived as potentially having a real "creepy" factor to them.

I understood that the only change discussed so far for Blackrock Mountain is the addition of the Blackwing Descent instance(raid? Can't recall...). The "Blackrock mountain erupts" shwerve was part of the only-half-accurate "leak" from before BlizzCon.

From everything I heard at BlizzCon, it doesn't seem to me like they want to remove old dungeon/raid content as much as they might want to revisit and update them to mesh with the new world. And even then, not even that element necessarily involves changing the instance at all. So I'm really not expecting them to remove BRD/BRS/MC/BWL.

Woops, I think you're right.

Blackwing Descent and Blackrock Caverns are the additions to Blackrock Mountain, and Blackrock Caverns is a Twilight's Hammer instance.

I still don't think it's impossible, however. We are revisiting Blackrock, which lends some potential development for the Dark Irons. Not only that, but Blizzard said they were going to give all of the racial leaders a bit more of a role in Cataclysm. Moria's child seems like prime material for anything involving Magni.

It's my understanding that there are specific laws in Germany (at least) having to do with the depiction on violence on children. (Posters who are in Germany/the EU can clarify this for me.) This is one of the reasons why children were immune to the plague during the last Scourge Invasion event. While on a personal level I don't see an issue with Dead Kids, I agree that there's a certain level of brutality involved with the thought that might make it distasteful enough to forget about on a design scale.

Giggity.

As a few other posters have mentioned, it's a bit of a stretch to believe that Blizzard would just create an open-ended scenario where "both sides won and both Muradin & Saurfang died." Whatever exciting implications may arise, it's still terrible storytelling and we've seen enough from them to know they wouldn't deliver something so fragmented.

At some point, someone will step in and break up the fight before it gets too nasty, whether it's Jaina, the Ashen Verdict or even Sindragosa. (ie. Get enemy Commander to 20%, Frost Wyrm arrives and starts attacking both ships, the battle is halted and both ships work together to defeat the Frost Wyrm, which retreats back to Icecrown at 1%, allowing us to fight a "weakened" version later in the instance)

And in response to the people wondering why Muradin is "such a big deal" in this instance - you have to remember, this is the guy who watched over Arthas as a kid and taught him how to fight. They were best friends for a good portion of Arthas' life.

As for the "Death of Arthas" animation, we have to remember that the official canon will be "Bolvar/Tirion/Jaina/Sylvanas/InsertNPCHere was the one who defeated Arthas, with the assistance of a group of Horde and Alliance soldiers from the Ashen Verdict." It won't just be "Sylvanas killed Arthas with her Horde allies whilst the Alliance sat on the ground grieving the loss of Muradin after being defeated in the Airship battle." Sure, there are disconnects between the Lore and Gameplay at times, but it needs to be at least remotely cohesive.

And finally, with all those souls floating around within Frostmourne, I have a sneaking suspicion we'll learn in the Halls of Reflection that "getting inside the blade" and encountering Arthas' soul will be key to his defeat.

We get a vision of his recovery in Dragonblight (which prompts Magni to travel to Northrend), and we do know what he's been doing for the past 5 years (kicking arse). The Frost Dwarves are treated as an allied faction too.

Two other points for dwarven lore (and succession) is that they're getting shaman (presumably thanks to the Wildhammer clan), and that Grim Batol, the ancient home of the Wildhammer clan and a twin to Ironforge, is going to be back.

Is there any indication in wow Lore, that there is a way into Frostmourne, other then to be killed by the Hand of its wielder?

From the top of my head, the only dead child I can think of in this game is li'l Pamela Redpath. Then again, I have the feeling with the Forsaken it's more 'game feature' related than actual concern about German laws. It's the same reason there's no 'dwarf' or 'gnome' or 'tauren' etc. Forsaken.

This isn't a horror game, seeing undead children might be a little Nightmare Fuel...The hanging tongue and exposed bones look cartoonish on the adult Forsaken, but I'm thinking children with no jaw and their flesh gone might be a litte too much. Not saying this about myself, but there are children playing this game.

Plus, when you start as a Forsaken, the first NPC you talk to says you almost were burned with the rest of the "non-rising". So perhaps it's a case of "only the strongest survive", children obviously not on the "strongest" cathegory. Wowwiki (based on the RPG books) says only now are the Forsaken learning Necromancy. So they still (in fact, I'd say all the Forsaken have awoken by now) depend on the scourge plague to bolster their population, which might put a wee bit of a strain on smaller bodies.

The Redpath child is a ghost, so it doesn't really count, graphically. Still, her quest is creepy enough (now I'm talking about myself, it's a great quest and a show by Blizzard that they can really make things dark).

As to Frostmourne, it could be that you are promptly "killed" to go into the sword's dimension, with Tirion and other "healing-capables" doing their best to keep you on a limbo.

@Onomatopeizator: Crashing on an airship full of fuel, parts that can cut you in two (or more, it's up to your liking), ammunition, gas (in the case of Orgrim's Hammer) and weighting tons...Characters like Saurfang and Muradin aren't depicted as so "reeincarnable" as demons and "higher" beings. In any chance, I don't think we'll be dealing with an air crash, either ship will probably be left drifting in a bad state.

I wonder about the sword. Will we *all* enter its realm (With the Ashen Verdict forces taking Arthas on and us weakening Frostmourne's power from the inside), or will it be a C'Thun/Yogg-Saron-style encounter where we go in multiple times?

I don't think Blizzard would want us to spend most of the time inside Frostmourne in the expansion's final (or at least most important) boss fight. It's likelier to be similar to those fights you mentioned, or Kalecgos. Or even an isolated "middle" phase instead of paralel.

I recall a developer at the last Blizzcon saying pieces of the throne would fall ("and if you fall it's bad"), so we'll almost definitely be fighting the man himself, barring a last-month change.

I'm actually thinking this might be better suited an enrage mechanic, similar to Teron's constructs. You get marked, you die, your soul gets inside Frostmourne and try to stop the sword from corrupting your raid, while the survivors try to take out the Lich King.

I'm sure the lot of you have seen this

Patch 3.3 PTR: Why are Northshire wolves getting sick

Any theories? I'm thinking Blizzard might trigger mini-world events for 3.3, perhaps Arthas trying to demonstrate the full reach of his powers.

Or maybe something for Cataclysm, already? Old Gods influence, Twilight Hammer sabotage (although they're supposed to be "badass" in Cataclysm).

Perhaps it's the first signs of the Worgen Curse? The gates to Gil'neas are meant to crack for Cataclysm, perhaps it's seeping out to the Wolves in advance. (Fitting considering you'd have wolves getting sick, when the new race will be Werewolves).