Well, I didn't mean "bride" in a loving , but more "formal" way. At least on his side. Hers would be perfectly reasonable, being drawn to power and such. Still, it was far fetched speculation to begin with, to see if someone could see a connection. Valanaar and the others are called Princes, so it makes perfect sense for their leader to be a Queen.
And Broll...Ever since his berserking at the Ashenvale battle, he's been capable of burrowing Doom Guards, elementals and just every other foe with the damned roots, as if they weren't made of..."plant". Perfectly choppable "plant". Still fitting, though, as Malfurion Stormrage solved almost every confrontation during the War of the Ancients with seeds and spores, so one-spell bars seem to be the way to go for druids in lore.
Edit: Sunlight kills zombies and demons? Well, it dampens the Night Elves' abilites.
Indeed, just as Dwarf Shamans are more akin to the Stormlords of the Warcraft Series than the Elemental worshipping Shamans of WoW.
The mechanics may be the same to remove complexity/balance issues, but lore-wise they are very different entities.
Please don't quote or rely on unsourced WoWWiki articles (especially those which are three lines long) to make assertions like this. There is no evidence one way or the other here in any of the lore.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Based on what's discussion and the already present anlogies the Sunwalkers are going to use the power of the sun (and the formerly neglected sun "god" of their culture) rather than the power of the Light, much like Priests of the Night Elves use the power of Elune rather than the "holy light".
Just because it's represented the same in game doesn't mean there's not very different lore behind it. Ideally it would be represented in a token manner by subtle spell name changes, but that would mean doing the opposite of the dumbing-down that's been done to the game since the end of BC. Blizzard doesn't seem to want to do that any more. Not that I blame em. Many, many wow players are insufferably stupid, and even adding analogous names to suit the lore would probably confuse them into fits of rage directed at GMs, CMs, and the company as a whole.
It might resemble druids (by a slightly long shot) if we're indeed talking about harnessing the sun's energy. Plus, my reference to druidism was also from a point of view of said Sunwalker's original idea, which seems to have been had by one of Runetotem's pupils.
Edit: Had forgotten about the Nigh Elves' tapping into Elune's energy instead of the Light. Case rested, I'd say.
Druidism itself is a philosophy (and a class) rather than a religion. Night Elf druids still believe in Elune, Tauren druids still believe in the Earth Mother.
Sunwalkers, in my interpretation, is simply the tauren being exposed to other cultures/religions and reflecting on their own to (re)discover new facets of it, harnessing the power of that new found faith the same way Priests of Elune or Paladins of the Holy Light do.
I might be wrong, but that is what makes the most sense to me.
Night Elf druids and the Priestesses of Elune are two different things. The latter, as the name suggests, worship Elune. Although Night Elven society is generally built around the moon goddess Elune, the druids tend to follow their Cenarius' legacy and worship nature more than Elune.
Edit - In fact. I believe there aren't any references that say NE druids specifically worship Elune.
Cenarius was a product of Elune and Malorne, it's a cultural religion. I fail to see the point of saying that Priests and Druids are different things. Duh. But trying to say that one can't be a druid and follow the Night Elven religion worshiping Elune is like saying a Muslim can't be a baker.
ALL Night Elves follow that religion, Cenarius and druidism is a part of that religion, not separate from it. The Night Elven gender roles have nothing to do with it, even before WoW there were male priests and female druids.
Well, most previously misogynist organizations have opened themselves to both genres. Actually, some, like the Cenarion Circle, have done the same with races, too, accepting members of every race. Of course, this is merely referred and not explained, at least in Wowwiki's texts, supposedly taken from the RPG books. This was, of course, done for gaming reasons, to prevent discrimination by genre as well as by race. Harder to explain to the player base, one assumes.
Night Elves are probably the most misogynist race, even if such is thoroughly accepted, so they "suffered" the most in terms of lore-shock value, in terms of allowing both genres to take any of the classes available.
As far as druids are concerned, I think it's pretty much set in stone that NE druids, even those who choose the feral path, worship Elune to some degree. They usually "choose" an animal-totem (not in the shamanic sense) while they're young, but their connection to the Night and the lunar and night base of some of their (and taurens') energy attacks really hints at them having at least a very strong connection to Elune.
Of course, it doesn't mean it's a full requirement for following the druidic path. Most likely, Elune doesn't necessarily require direct worship to award her power. And druids of other races might simply have the token "respect" for the moon and night without outright kneeling before it.
They worship elune along with the other night elven gods/demigods, but venerate Cenarius and his children more when they become druids.
It's all one interconnected religion. It's not monotheism, it's polytheism.
And yes, MOONfire and STARfire and the like are more derived of Elune than Cenarius' or Nature's power. They venerate both. The Tauren, however, worship the moon as a different entity from Elune. They worship it as a facet of the Earth Mother, of which the sun is also. They are discovering this as a culture, hence Sunwalkers.
I don't know how you can call Night-Elves the most misogynist when two of their most infamous rulers have been females. Their males and females have been in separate castes, but I wouldn't call it the same thing as hatred. For example, the Night-Elf Sentinels were female, the Priests were female as well and most importantly their rulers/leaders (Queen Azshara, Tyrande) have been female.
As far as I am concerned, any historical society that has their entire caste of Warriors, Priests and their top leader being female can hardly be considered misogynist.
Also, the Cenarion Circle bit has been explained -- even in this thread. Cenarius, teacher of Malfurion and son of Elune, taught the Taurens themselves (Xarantaur is an example, but also Forestlord and the first Druids - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft). For some reason, Tauren druidism died out until Malfurion taught the Taurens druidism, with Hamuul Runetotem being one of Malfurion's students.
Now Fandraal Staghelm on the other-hand still appears to be xenophobic.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Night Elves are probably the most misogynist race, even if such is thoroughly accepted, so they "suffered" the most in terms of lore-shock value, in terms of allowing both genres to take any of the classes available.
How are Night Elves "misogynist"? After all, they are a culture with a female leader, worshipping a clearly female deity, and with women taking up an awful lot of positions of responsibility. Not exactly the hallmarks of a society discriminating against women, are they?
Now Fandraal Staghelm on the other-hand still appears to be xenophobic.
He's a douche but the root of the problem lies in the fact that Malfurion is too peace oriented. He would ally with Night Elven enemies who would all too willingly shove a sword into the race's back.
I'm intrigued as to how the silent power struggle that's been in place since launch is going to play out now that Fandral has been proven correct and the Night Elves need to take a more militant stance or be wiped out by upstart savages.
Regarding Misogyny.. They are, or rather were, class obsessed. Queen Aszhara was powerful, yes, but her being queen wasn't a result of the culture being a matriarchy. The current situation is the result of the vast majority of the "male" army being wiped out between battles with the legion and the sundering, and most of the males after that becoming druids and thus walking the dream rather than Night Elf society at large while the Sisters of Elune reorganized the army into the Sentinels.
My bad, my bad, I chose the wrong word. I meant to say they were the strictest in terms of setting roles in society according to genre. I'm sorry, it was a terrible show of bad english. Or rather, straight-out ignorance.
Hope this sets the idea straight.
Edit: Regarding Fandral, he's probably going to be slightly annoyed to see Malfurion take his stage in Cataclysm. Although, with Furion's supposedly new "pissed off" attitude, he may actually become a fan.
The short story "Unbroken" presents the idea very strongly that when the some Draenei were separated from the Light because of exposure to the fel-corrupted orcs, they discovered Shamanism, which was just another form of expression for the Light. That's certainly the suggestion provided by Velen in "Unbroken", and it hints at the idea that ultimately, the Light, Shamanism, and likely druidism come from the same source. (There wasn't any discussion of arcane or fel magic there, so not sure where that mixes into the show.)
So regardless of the Tauren justification/cultural explanation/details of beginning an order of Sunwalkers who are functionally identical to the Blood Knights and the Alliance Paladins, the end result is that the magic is the same. Culture and religion are just window-dressing in this case.
Given that even Blood Elves drained light energy from M'uru. I find it unbelievable that Tauren somehow find a substitute energy source for the Light. I'm interested to see if the Sunwalkers mark a change in direction for Tauren society.
I hope Furion is pissed off. I'm tired of losing my faction's leaders and heroes to neutrality while the horde continually stabs the parent races of said heroes in the back.
I can't imagine a legitimate situation in which he would awaken, find most of Ashenvale clearcut/burned, horde slaughtering his race and invading his homeland, and then just whistle and continue on his merry way to mess around with Ragnaros, waving at the new cannibalistic trolls in Moonglade along the way.
In fact, I just don't see how cenarion neutrality is gonna work at all any more. It's gone beyond a cold war with skirmishes/tension, it's a full scale war now.
You do realize that the entire point of the Darkspear Trolls' story is that they were rejected from their society (or turned their back on it, I forget) specifically because they are NOT cannibals.
That fact had actually slipped my mind, but the fact remains Trolls in general have been enemies with the Night Elves since.. well, forever. My inaccurate denigrations of their eating habits aside, there are many quests throughout the game that show hostility up to and including implied eating/voodoo sacrifice of them.
Yet they can roll druids now, so they'll just be all cool in Moonglade? I really hope this doesn't turn out to be the case.
Given that even Blood Elves drained light energy from M'uru. I find it unbelievable that Tauren somehow find a substitute energy source for the Light. I'm interested to see if the Sunwalkers mark a change in direction for Tauren society.
The Light, unless things have been drastically retconned (which it easily could have with the coming of those blasted Naaru), is mostly a philosophy with no defined deity or powers besides... well, The Light.
It's a power normally tapped into through faith and devotion.
Aside from the fact that Tauren Sunwalkers aren't going to canonically be "paladins" and worshipers of the Light, they wouldn't need to find a source of power in order to be true paladins in the first place. Humans, High Elves, and Dwarves were all able to wield the powers of the Light before anyone on Azeroth knew of the existence of the Naaru or any other font of holy energy.
The Tauren's worship and faith in An'she (their sun deity), would be enough to unlock holy powers. The same way Night Elf priests gain their powers from Elune. Paladins are a cultural thing, like Druids.
Loss of Light-given powers is arguably due to loss of faith. The Forsaken and Broken, for instance. The Broken may have claims that they're biologically unable to use the powers of the light, but all things considered, you have to wonder how they would test that. I'd hazard to guess it's simply an assumption. Both races likely wavered in their faith enough when faced with their plight that they lost the will to use it. When you consider the case of Sir Zeliek instead of pass him off as a lore hiccup, it makes sense this way. Zeliek's faith never wavered, and he can still call upon it in undeath. What's more, the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught do things that we would argue are immoral and evil, but they all believe they're doing what's right any carrying out The Lights will, in the name of The Light.
Faith. Completely independent of any other power sources or influences.
Actually, cannibalism was said to be one of the things the Darkspear were gradually changing during their inclusion in the Horde. Nowadays, I think it's safe to assume a lot of them have lost that habit, although it probably hasn't completely dissappeared. It's likely the same as voodoo. The Darkspear's eviction of their original home had to do with traditional tribal rivalries. They're simply smaller than most other Troll varieties and so weren't able to face the other's hostilities.
As for the Cenarion Circle, they're said to be adamant in their refusal to let racial tensions slip into and endanger their work. Although, with the coming rise in tensions...
@Kajin: Broken became so supposedly because of the Red Mist that accompanied the orcs during their campaign to erradicate the draenei. If you read Nobundo's story, he called to the Light with all his faith and took lots of time for him to accept that he'd lost it. In their case, it seems the cause was biological. With Forsaken, something similar occurred. Their rising from death turned them into beings generally (yes, there are exceptions) incapable of empathy or good feelings, which made them very poor vessels for the Light. Recently, though, some have learned how to use the Light.
10/28/09, 9:27 AM
