Maledict

Folks have to remember that aside from the High Elves in Dalaran, the "High Elves" don't actually exist as a group anymore. Blizzard have said this on numerous occasions - the High Elves as a group and race are gone. Those that are left are the few, scattered remnants - there just aren't enough of them left to form a new nation or player race. Blizzard have said that all along about the High Elves as a reason for why they won't ever be player characters.

 

Nakari

Lorewise, there are still quite a few High Elves in Theramore, who left the Eastern Kingdoms with Jaina before Arthas' attack on Quel'thalas. Still, the High Elves are massively fewer in numbers than the Blood Elves (who themselves aren't the most populous to begin with, compared to humans, dwarves, orcs or even the Darkspear Tribe). All in all, there are perhaps a few hundred High Elves left, which in my book doesn't qualify them to become a major power factor for quite some time.
It's unfortunate the rivalry and conflict between the Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant isn't really elaborated on in game aside from the faction's description and some snide comments in quest texts towards each other, not to mention both factions had zero content at release and seemingly got stuck into the Argent Tournament as an afterthought. I still don't really know why Vereesa Windrunner and Aethas Sunreaver (who's that guy anyway, and why does he wear that mask...?) are standing next to Rhonin staring at each other. That the "redemption" of the Blood Elves after the events of the Sunwell / Kil'jaedens banishing (as far as I know) isn't mentioned ever at all dosen't help either...

 

Leviathon

The only population info we have is from the RPG book.

In the end they are a dying people when compared to the blood elves and won't become a major force for some time again.

 

Starfire

I wouldn't exactly call that dying, as long as they can reproduce. I also wonder if that takes into account Allerian Stronghold and any other Otherworldly possessions (ie besides Outlands, any possessions Alleria has claimed).

There also High-Elves amongst the Seventh Legion.

Wowwiki makes the claim 10% of the pre-Splintering High-Elven population was in Theramore, coupled with the claim Dalaran (and the Silver Covenant/Kirin Tor) had more High-Elves than Theramore, that seems like quite a significant amount.

 

◊ Talanik

I was wondering the same thing, about why the redemption of the Blood Elves is never built apon. I mean, they aren't the mana-crazed, power-stealing Blood Elves they were in BC, are they? They have their Sunwell back, this time fueled by the Light instead of the Arcane. Wouldn't that affect High Elves as well? I mean, I could understand if there was slight hostilities based on previous actions between the factions, but its never even touched apon.

As for Tauren Paladins, I thought we went over this long ago? They would be Paladins related to Humans/Dwarves/Draenei, in the same way Troll, Night Elf, and Undead priests are related to Human, Dwarf, or Draenei. Completely different lore beliefs, religious systems, etc. But same ingame abilities for the sake of balance. I mean, it isn't confirmed but I just don't see a Tauren walking into Stormwind pledging allegiance to the Holy Light.

 

Exemplar

Vereesa at least has the reason that she's married to Rhonin.

Aethas is a member of the Council of Six, which runs the Kirin Tor - he's even flagged Kirin Tor in game. [sarcasm] So logically he's at odds with the Silver Covenant and leading a rival faction named after himself.[/sarcasm]

Why performing tasks for the Argent Tournament increases the respect that the Covenant or Sunreavers have for you (when neither the Kirin Tor, nor either faction specifically, are involved in the Tourney at all) is beyond my explanation. Silver Covenant and Sunreavers are decidedly unexplained with the loss of whatever initial content they were to have. I'm forced to agree they seem shoehorned into Argent Tourney just to explain their rep (and allow it to be raised).

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Alliera

Right -- "let's join with the race that has been fighting us ever since we landed on these shores. That sounds like a match made in heaven!"

Or "let's join the beasts who burned Quel'Thalas in the Second War. Great idea!"

The trolls and the orcs are the high elves' two worst enemies ever, prior to Arthas' fall to the Scourge. And suddenly they're buddy-buddy with them? Even if you take into account that the Darkspear trolls aren't Amani, and even if take into account that the orcs aren't the demon-infused killers of the Second War, it makes no sense. Their race just suddenly collectively decide to forgive them?

I'd also love to see where "the Alliance" sentenced them to death? Garithos was a self-serving opportunistic racist, who took the remaining forces of the Alliance in Lordaeron under his command by force, and who appointed himself "Marshal General"; he was not the Alliance.

The break with the Alliance is horribly explained and only touched on once in the blood elf starting area -- with the night elf and dwarf spies you're sent to kill. In the end, all of it together can only explain why the blood elves refused to rejoin the Alliance -- not why they joined the Horde.

But this has all been told in exhausting detail anywhere you care to look, so I don't see how I'll change your mind.

You're forgetting the major deal-breaker, here. The blood elves surrender to their arcane withdrawal and feed on fel energies, which is why their eyes glow sickly green. High elves do not. Also, the high elves who remain in the Alliance were either in Outland, in Theramore with Jaina, or with the Kirin Tor in Dalaran, which closed itself off from the world. The scattering few who remained spread out in various places in the Alliance other than these places lived there, had friends there, and it would make absolutely no sense if they suddenly became hostile for no reason. Most high elves view the blood elves as a warning of what could happen to them.

 

Leviathon

Well they lorewise don't feed on demonic energies any longer but the effects of the fel magic will likely stay with them similar to how the orcs on Azeroth stayed green even after Mannoroths death. Although it would make sense that the 2 would come back together slowly now considering that the main dividing force is no longer there and technically the high elves still relying on arcane energy still would be more frowned upon (since the blood elves now have a holy infused Sunwell).

Least we are getting to see the new blood elves in 3.3 when we enter a phased restored Sunwell. Actually it would be interesting if the holy Sunwell did have something to do with the Sunwalkers of the tauren in Cataclysm. It would help to bring the blood elves closer to the horde at the same time.

 

Nakari

I think the propblematic part is not why the Blood Elves joined the Horde, but why they remained part of it. They had understandable reasons to ally with the Horde, or at least to use it at a means to an end, at the beginning of BC. They couldn't trust the alliance anymore (touched upon with the spying dwarf and night elves in the starting areas), but needed support for their quest to reach Kael'thas' "promised land", and had an amabassador on their behalf to the Horde via Sylvanas / the Forsaken. It was an alliance of convenience, the Blood Elve's magical skill and knowledge of Outland in exchange for the Horde's manpower and military might.
Problem is, the whole "raison d'être" for this arrangement ceased to exist the moment you enter Outland. It's not the paradise / new home Kael'thas promised; and later on, they even renounce their loyalty to Kael and gain a new, completely corruption-free™ source of power that eliminates the need to go to Outland in the first place. Unfortunately, Blizzard failed to provide a compelling story for the inclusion of the Blood Elves into the Horde (other than "Hey, the Horde needs a pretty race, too!").

 

Leviathon

I think the reasoning now would be along the lines of that they need some allies since they effectively burned bridges with the Alliance prior to finding out the truth in Outland. They also seem to have a pretty strong relationship with the Forsaken and Sylvanas specifically.

 

Ptoleman

I always thought the Sindorei joined the Horde because of political convenience and their ties to the Forsaken. The Blood Elves don't want anything to do with the Alliance, for justified and unjustified reasons, so they turn to the other major power on Azeroth for protection as it were. As a culture and society, however, the Blood Elves have far more in common with the Alliance than the Horde, even if they have bad feelings towards each other. They only remain in the Horde, again, for convenience--and because their own actions ruined any chance for reconciliation with the Alliance for quite some time, although given the events at the Sunwell they would seem to have a rather chummy relationship with the Draenei now, don't you think?

The Horde is truly a horde: a mixed bag of races with little societal or cultural similarity coming together through the personal actions of a few leaders and all measures of political and military convenience. Like others have said, the trouble is it's becoming difficult to continue justifying the Horde's continued coherence as time goes on. Were the lore not bound by the needs of gameplay, the Horde would be gravely unstable and probably fragment in Cataclysm, if it hadn't fragmented already by now due to the disaster at the Wrathgate and other incidents in Wrath.

We even see this pattern continue in Cataclysm. The only reason the Goblins join the Horde is because Thrall saves/aids them. Again. This is, what, the third or fourth race the Warchief has single-handedly saved? It's official: Thrall will never, ever die. The Worgen, on the other hand, join the Alliance for a myriad of political, social, cultural, military, and historical reasons.

Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.

Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.

 

Nakari

Perhaps you're right, I guess it's generally better to view the two factions less as the monolithic, unified entities they are often presented in the game, and more like somewhat loose alliances based on history and / or mutual protection.

 

Mr. Crow

Blizzard has reversed their stance before -- it's entirely possible that High Elves will become playable for the Alliance at some point in the future. However, I think we all consider it pretty unlikely because Blood Elves and High Elves are not (at the moment) very distinct from one another in silhouette, and silhouette is an important differentiator in PVP circumstances that Blizzard is interested in preserving.

Gameplay trumps lore. So, if it overly complicates gameplay to have a visually identical race on both factions, it won't happen.

I think there's an interesting story (or six) to be told about the High Elves, and what they've done since the destruction of Quel'thalas, but right now, the explanation that the High Elves don't have the elfpower to bring anything to the table is a fine reason to leave them out of race selection.

 

Alliera

Yes, I have rolled blood elves. At the moment, I have at least three blood elves who have been through the entire starting area as well as Ghostlands (two mages at 24 and 23, and a paladin at 55).

It is NOT explained why they suddenly ignore how they have fought with trolls for their entire stay in the Eastern Kingdoms. It is NOT explained why they ignore how the orcs burned and pillaged Quel'Thalas during the Second War.

 

Enova

Well, the troll part is easier to explain. The Ammani trolls are forest trolls, the Darkspear trolls are jungle trolls. Seriously, though, it's a bit more complicated than that, but it boils down to the fact that the Darkspears never had any conflict with Silvermoon, and in all fairness, trolls and blood elves would actually have a lot in common.

Ignoring their history with the orcs isn't exactly explained, but we could speculate that between desperation and different generations faced with different problems makes them, if not more trusting of each other, at least more willing to ally for convenience's sake.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Exemplar

And that matters how? Prejudice knows no political borders - mostly skin colour and, in this case, shape. Green guys with a slouch are green guys with a slouch. Show a belf a troll and the natural response should be to attack first. If they stand there with a hand extended in friendship the Amani they mistook for a Darkspear will stab and stew them.

Joining the Horde was a political decision - that doesn't mean the average belf on the street is terribly happy associating with orcs, trolls, tauren, or forsaken. Not that they'd be any happier with humans, draenei, gnomes, or dwarves. If High Elves were ever gregarious, this has been stomped out in what has suffered and transformed into the Blood Elves.

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend - watchful neutrality is more reasonable. If you have to commit (they did), then you commit as little as you can.

I'm honestly surprised we don't get a very isolationist feeling from the belves. They feel themselves superior to the other races and don't particularly like anyone. They should desire just enough relations for allies to call on should they be attacked, without having to commit many (or any) of their own in kind. Yet the general WoW impression is they're happy citizens of the Horde, content to assist Thrall's plans, sending their citizens cheerfully to the battlefront.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Kaejin

It's also worth stressing that Sylvanas played a major roll in them becoming part of the Horde.

People keep saying this buy not elaborating, and others keep ignoring it.

Sylvanas was the former Ranger General of Silvermoon. She was the head of their military and gave her life trying to defend their land from the Scourge. Sylvanas loves her people, even after death, and there's plenty of evidence of that.

So, either Sylvanas hears that Silvermoon is being rebuilt, or Silvermoon is rebuilt and Lor'themar hears that Sylvanas leads the Forsaken (a group of beings who broke free of the Scourge and also had their fair share of problems with Garithos). Whichever way, word is sent and the two sides discuss things.

The Forsaken are black sheep in the Horde, but they have allies in the event that the Alliance attack them.

Silvermoon has no allies, and the Alliance clearly doesn't trust them and is actively spying and performing sabotage against them in addition to the troubles they already face. If the Alliance were to decide they wanted to attack Silvermoon to "liberate" it from the wayward Blood Elves and present it back to the few remaining High Elves, that would spell doom for the High Elves.

The Blood Elves are in a very similar position to the Forsaken before they joined the Horde. Their former allies do not like or trust them and could easily destroy them. They need new allies, and with the Forsaken (specifically Sylvanas, former Ranger General and a woman who still cares what happens to her people), they already have a foot in the door.

The Forsaken and Silvermoon remain a part of the Horde because they still need to be part of the Horde. Silvermoon's domestic issues may well have been mostly solved, but they are in no way able to stand against the Alliance alone.

Similarly, the Forsaken would likely be crushed if the Alliance were to attack them after leaving the Horde (and we know Varian would do so as soon as possible).

They don't culturally fit into the Horde, but that's not why they joined in the first place.


@Exemplar: The majority of the grunts you see from the Horde are Orcs and Tauren, with a handfull of Forsaken and Darkspear. Marksman are similarly Tauren and Darkspear dominated with Blood Elves in some locations. Magisters are Blood Elves and sometimes Forsaken, but rarely seen in general. Darkspear witchdoctors are used on Orgrim's Hammer rather than Blood Elf mages. For the most part you see Blood Elves defending Blood Elf settlements and a few Blood Elf envoys at other Horde settlements as a show of good will. They are giving as little as they can manage to give while still staying in the good graces of the rest of the Horde.

 

Alliera

Yes, the alliance between Silvermoon and the Forsaken is perfectly reasonable on many levels, if only because of Sylvanas. But the alliance between Silvermoon and Orgrimmar is not. It could work -- political alliance of convenience, blah, blah -- if we actually SAW animosity between them, but we don't. There's no tension at all.

 

Zonie

I don't think that's necessarily the case, look at our world, one race of humans doesn't go to war with an entire other race, just because of one part of said race's actions.

Forest Trolls (Lordaeron) and Jungle Trolls (south Azeroth) are in reality likely to be quite genetically different to each other in the same way Europeans are different to Africans for instance, especially given how old the Troll race is. There's no reason to believe that the Belfs couldn't treat the 2 groups totally differently, especially the Darkspear who are further different to the rest of the Jungle Trolls in Azeroth due to their Horde alliegence.

That's not to say there won't be some tension between individual Belfs and Trolls, but doesn't stop the logic of them allying to the same faction for their different reasons - Belfs via Forsaken / being outcast, Trolls allying with Orcs when they reached Kalimdor.

 

Aditu

The Blood Elves, like Sylvannas, wanted vengeance and I think you guys are somewhat forgetting the fact that when the Blood Elves were joining the Horde, Kael'thas atrocities weren't known and he was still their Prince. Do you think he'd knowingly allow the BE to rejoin the alliance? Never mind how his character was handled by Blizzard in BC but BE's joining the Horde have very obvious advantages, at least at the start.

Now that Kael is dead and the Blood Elves have redeemed themselves somewhat, their presence in the Horde is a bit less strategically reasoned. However, given that they have no strong personality leading them, there's really no impetus for them to break the status quo.

 

Leviathon

Now its also since they made it impossible to ally with the Alliance anytime soon just due to things that happened in Quel'thelas. They also seem to have a larger disliking for night elves when compared to their brethren who fled to Stormwind and the like. I'd imagine they could lorewise even look down upon Stormwind and Ironforge just since neither nation seemed to take any effort to helping Lordaeron or Quel'thelas since I doubt no news got south. That is unless Blizzard goes the route that the Scourge ripped through both areas in a matter of days (I don't even think Arthas touched upon a timescale) which at least seems reasonable in the immediate area around Capital City.

 

Exemplar

I was rather looking at our own world. We tend to go to war, perpetrate slavery, or commit genocide for even less reason, such as skin colour or religion.

Most long-standing regional disputes are because each side has occupied some land for generations (sometimes simultaneously), so each claims it as their own.

Look at current American culture - a small group of people commit a horrible act of terrorism. Thus everyone who shares racial traits or religion with the terrorists is often treated as guilty until proven innocent. Rationality rarely hits the man on the street, and the man on the street gets elected to public office or threatens to not re-elect whomever has if they don't politicize their view.

As for Sylvanas being a bridge to the Horde - what? Sylvanas Windrunner was a High Elf (as all Blood Elves were). Vereesa Windrunner is a High Elf. Sylvanas is dead and leading a mass of dead humans, working with the Horde. Vereesa is alive, married to Rhonin, active in politics of the Kirin Tor. Who, prior to Wrath, were associated with the Alliance. Alleria outright joined the Alliance (and is since MIA).

Why does it logically follow that it "makes sense" that they joined the Horde because Sylvanas is a racial leader? They have just as much reason to join the Alliance or somehow go completely neutral under the Kirin Tor.

The strongest link to Sylvanas is Lor'themar, as he was Sylvanas's second-in-command. He could easily have decided to side with her for old time's sake. He just as easily could have decided to side against her - she's undead (the enemy) leading a group of undead humans (the enemy squared), housed in the ruins of Lordaeron (the human enemy's capital) which were taken with the partial assistance of Garithos (the bastard who screwed Kael and the Blood Elves).

The cleanest explanation would be to say the Blood Elves joined the Horde at behest of Kael'thas, their saviour. That's probably the safest reasoning. And once you've joined one side or the other, switching isn't exactly politically viable, even if you learn your saviour is pretty crappy. Trying to come up with justifications is mostly circular logic and as fruitful as attacking/defending Thrall/Garrosh/Horde or Wrynn/Alliance.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Cobs

There is one huge reason for the blood elves not to join the Alliance as it stands now. The night elves and high elves are on very bad terms. It was the high elves that succeeded from the night elves post sundering because they wouldn't give up on using magic. They were also mostly affiliated with the old guard highborne and not the new guard sentinels/druids. If the alliace was still just the WC2 alliance of human nations and dwarves/gnomes then there might be an argument for blood elves to go back to the alliance even after their betrayal by Garithos but it isn't anymore. Night elves and high or blood elves being on the same side makes no sense at all, the original Sunstrider even attacked Ashenvale which was the catalyst for the high elves being exiled in the first place.

 

Thorgrim

If we assume that people running around in Azeroth should think "a troll is a troll" and treat them the same despite obvious cultural and physical differences, then how can we explain the fact that high elves, blood elves, and night elves are treated and reacted to differently by different groups? I mean, an elf is an elf too, presumably, right?

The Horde/Blood Elf alliance just isn't really that weird. What's weirder is justifying why the Alliance - which, remember, has more or less nothing to do with the remnants of Lordaeron anymore - takes such a completely hostile stance towards the Blood Elves before they've joined the Horde. The last Alliance-Blood Elf interaction we see in Warcraft 3, after all, is one of cooperation between Malfurion and Kael'thas. (Granted, this is pre-Night Elves joining the Alliance.) Explaining it away as due to their nominal allegiance to Illidan doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me given that the ending state of relations with Illidan is one of detente (again see the end of the Night Elf campaign in Frozen Throne.)

But if we take the difference between Horde (via the Tranquillien folks) and Alliance (the dwarf 'ambassador', the hostile night elf invasion) actions in the Blood Elf starting areas at face value, their decision to go with the Horde is completely sensible. We accept that Horde membership is an alliance of convenience for the Forsaken; why can't we make the same assumption for the Blood Elves?

 

Emeraude

I do believe that reasoning disappears in 4.0 when the Night Elves allow the Highborne back into their ranks. :P

I believe I touched on this before, but according to the World of Warcraft manga series, one of the short stories mentioned that the High Elves can't/don't practice arcane magic like they used to. Aside from the Silver Covenant keeping the other faction out of their area, I haven't seen much in the ways of High Elf NPCs using magic. Even the 7th legion High Elves are all fighters/melee.

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