There are Alliance-friendly High-Elves in both Hinterlands and Eastern Plaguelands, you know.

There are also High-Elf battlemages in the 7th Legion: 7th Legion Battle Mage - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (there's a screenshot). There's also an Arcane Sanctum in Dragonblight with Vas wearing Mage armor.

There's a female high elf mage in the Stormwind Mage Tower.

High elves and blood elves are separated from night elves by very obvious physical differences (and you can recognize blood elves from high elves by the sickly green glow in their eyes). The forest trolls and the jungle trolls look... just like any other troll.

The forest troll and jungle troll models are not the same. The differences between the forest troll model and the jungle troll model are significantly greater than the difference between high and blood elves in-game at least.

EDIT: For male trolls anyway. I don't know why Blizzard didn't bother to update the female model for forest trolls when they did the males.

It isn't a universal change, in any case. The Mossflayer trolls in Eastern Plaguelands still have the normal troll model, and they are forest trolls -- in fact, they are specifically a subgroup of the Amani tribe.

@Exemplar: Are you ignoring the fact that, by the time the Blood Elves decided to side with the Horde, that the Forsaken are pretty widely known as NOT being Scourge? Sylvanas was formerly a High Elf, and the Forsaken are formerly and currently the citizens or Lordaeron. Both of these things make them a good match for the Blood Elves if they're looking for allies. Vareesa could have been their link to Dalaran if it weren't for the fact that she hates the Blood Elves (thus the entire reason for The Silver Covenant for existing), while Sylvanas clearly does not. Sylvanas' loyalty to her people is reason enough for her to help them. Lor'themar knowing her just made it easier for the two to work something out in Silvermoon's favor.

Kael'thas urging the Blood Elves to join the Horde doesn't make sense. Kael wouldn't know anything about Azeroth's current political situation and likely knew little about the New Horde at all. He sent Grand Magister Rommath back to Azeroth in order to get the move to Outland going, but didn't tell Rommath much of anything. The only flow of communication back to Kael would be Blood Elf pilgrims joining his ranks, by which time the Blood Elves were already allied with the Horde.

Also, the difference in Forest and Jungle trolls is pretty obvious. While not clearly depicted in-game because it would require pretty detailed textures, Forest Trolls have moss growing on their skin (hence very green), while Jungle Trolls are covered in fur (hence purple, since that's the color of the fur). This is putting aside the obvious different in body types common among the two (Forest Trolls are bulky, Jungle Trolls are lithe).

Easy. Modern High Elves =/= Highborne.

The High Elves, or Quel'dorei, are those Highborne who followed the Sunstrider east, away from the wreck of the War of the Ancients, created the Sunwell, and eventually became the Sin'dorei.

There are other Highborne who didn't sail east -- particularly those who took up with Prince Tortheldrin in Shen'dralar.

It's the Shen'dralar Highborne (who are still Kaldorei) who are rejoining the Night Elves in Darnasses with their mastery of Arcane magic.

Yeah, when I actually looked it up I couldn't find any references to that. Not sure why I thought that.

That's a baby step at best. Yes the Highborne are back, but that doesn't mean they're entirely welcome. They've been cultural pariahs for millenia; the prejudices involved aren't going to vanish overnight even if Elune herself demands it. Not to mention that the Highborne, at least, don't have eyes that glow with the taint of fel energies.

Moreover, the Blood Elves have now been a part of the Horde for years in the reckoning of real, in-game and lore time. During that time they have been involved in direct conflicts with the Alliance, while simultaneously fighting alongside and building relationships with members of the Horde. At the very least they're very close to the Forsaken, who are now thoroughly indebted to the Horde for saving the Undercity. Unless Sylvannas dies sometime in the next expansion, she'll act as a significant anchor.

But doesn't this go back to Cataclysm and how the Forsaken are not trusted by their allies, and probably won't be trusted again, and how Garrosh intends to put the Orcs and Tauren on a higher pedestal then the other races?

While the High Elves aren't an official playable race, I'd argue that their presence within the ranks of the current Alliance is significant enough to the point that they can fight along side the Night Elves without any issue, they're no more displaced to me then the Gnomes or Trolls are, a specific group within a giant race. If anything the High Elves are a bit more in-line with responsible use of magic(Those that still practice) after they lost the Sunwell, more so then their Blood Elf cousins.

You have to remember that there are very few High Elves about. Although we currently see a fairly sizable group of them as the Kirin Tor-aligned Silver Covenant, there are only about 2-3 lodges of high elves left in the rest of the world, as far as I remember. So I don't think the High Elves are 'significant' to the current Alliance in any..err.. significant way.

Of course.. you'd think that actual 'ancient' Highborne kaldorei would be even rarer than high elves, but then we don't really know that much about them, or if they survived 'in plain sight' (outside of Dire Maul, maybe as a secret cult in mainstream Darnassian society?) in some shape or form.

I just do not see what is so hard to comprehend here.

Blood Elves were abandoned by the Alliance.
Blood Elves were imprisoned and sentenced to death by the Alliance. (Frozen Throne here people!)
Blood Elves break free and sever ties with the Alliance.

BAM, your reasoning for their LEAVING the Alliance.

Blood Elves take back and rebuild Silvermoon and the outerlying Eversong Woods.
Blood Elves have conversation and become Friendly with the Forsaken.
The Forsaken aid the Blood Elves with retaking their lands, and are granted an INVITATION to the Horde IF they prove themselves worthy by slaying their betrayer Dar'Kahn.
They do so and swear allegiance to the Warchief. The End.

All of the reasons for their WANTING to join the horde have been mentioned by Kaejin I will not repeat them. And you can't necessarily say it has been a bad ride, can you? Their lands have been purged of the Scourge and Amani Trolls*, their Sunwell has been purged, and their Arcane addiction has been purged, and all of this comes with a sweet sweet pass to Northrend with the possibility of taking revenge on Arthas. None of this would have been possible with out the aid of the Forsaken and later aid of the Horde. Besides who else do you think will teach the Orcs how to wield the arcane?

*If you think that 'lorewise' the Alliance had anything to do with the downfall of Zul'Aman you are kidding yourself. No way the Alliance would have been allowed to march through Forsaken and Sin'Dorei controlled lands. While it wasn't made out to be (other than in the trailer) it is a Blood Elven-centric dungeon.

There's no reasonable explanation as to why they would ignore the past few millennia of fighting trolls to ally with a race of them, especially when that also puts them in direct opposition with humans, whom they have been on friendly terms with for almost as long. A portion of the blood elves were pronounced traitors by an opportunistic xenophobe who took control of Alliance forces; they were not collectively labelled traitors by the actual Alliance. (Mainly because at the time the actual Alliance was in Kalimdor building Theramore.)

Forsaken? What on earth do the Forsaken's lands have to do with this? Their lands are Silverpine Forest and Tirisfal Glades, both of which you can bypass entirely on your way through Eastern Plaguelands. And if you think the path from the Eastern Plaguelands to Zul'Aman is so well-guarded by sin'dorei forces that you couldn't lead an Alliance force right through, you need to start looking at maps. There are no cities to pass, no border towers -- nothing.

Zul'Aman and lore? As far as a I know, the only story there is is that we help Harrison Jones get some loot from that place. Zul'Aman seems just one outpost of trolls that have lost their marbles among the devastation caused by the Scourge (and the elves). It's unlikely that Zul'jin and his crazy monstrosities were ever really a significant threat to anyone but the adventurers (like us) that went in.

Anyway.. however you discuss it, the Blood Elves *are* Horde aligned. In both the Horde and Alliance not every race gets along with the others, or really cares for the other races. Gnomes don't seem to care about most of what goes on, and the Night Elves are pretty rare outside of Kalimdor. There are not even that many Night Elves active in Northrend. The Blood Elf (and Forsaken) relation to the Horde is more like how the entire Alliance works: independent nations working together. The rest of the Horde seems a much more cohesive organisation, united under the Warchief. It may be that they're trying to move away from that too, with Trolls and Tauren maybe getting more of their own story.

Most likely not. The Sunwell is actually just a source of arcane energy akin to the Well of Eternity, though it was cleansed/restored through Holy powers, it remains arcane. The "Sun-" was just an attribute given to it by the High Elves, who had the sun theme long before they had paladins, and merely as a means to differentiate themselves from the Night Elves who revere the moon. Everything "sun" in their magic is just fire magic, which is a subschool of arcane. The Sunwalkers will likely use the powers of the sun as a natural 'magic', like (today's) druids use the powers of the moon, and both druids and shamans call upon the powers of the wild/nature.

[Letter from Lor'themar Theron]
Second page says: "Our grand magister has received word back from Outland regarding Thrall's question. The answer is, with great certainty, yes."
This can mean two things: uncorrupted orcs in Outland, especially the Mag'har, or a confirmation of Kael'thas' involvement with the Legion. Thrall's reactions to the player informing him about the existence of the Mag'har implies it's not the first one. So it is likely that the issue of the Blood Elves' leader cooperating with the Legion led to various political problems, though these don't become known to the public, which includes the players.

Actually, there wasn't any official Alliance at the time, at least not with the Night Elves and gnomes. Of course, dwarves and high elves did fight alongside humans - Lordaeron humans, to be precise. Jaina isn't from Lordaeron, hence she wasn't the natural leader of the ones who remained in their homeland. That role was effectively played by Garithos. So, while the Theramore humans might have treated the elves differently, they simply weren't there to do anything. Plus, if you recall the prison escape level in The Frozen Throne, human guards were pretty hostile against elves.

High and Blood Elves hate forest trolls. Of course, that must lead to them being suspicious of other kinds too, but it doesn't outright make them incompatible, especially in dire necessity of allies. The blood elves have become ruthlessly pragmatic towards their goals, and as long as they "see the difference in colors", so to speak, they should be able to side with them in whatever operations they participate in. Orcs should be a bigger source of grudges, but even then...I'm sure the elves can still see clearly enough to know they've largely changed. Meaning they won't pose a threat to the sin'doreis goals in the near future. The same ruthless approach works for elves siding with orcs. The sin'drei pretty much see only their goals ahead.

As for humans having been allies with elves for a long time...well, it makes Garithos' actions all the more wrong, no? Rather than saying elves shouldn't abandon so old an ally, perhaps that ally shouldn't have treated the elves so.

I'd agree 100%. They should react in this fashion. This is where gameplay trumps reality. Same reason we, as Alliance, kill every troll we see on sight... except that one over there. Instead we follow his every instruction and help him perform tasks for minor rewards. Oh, and that one over there, too. And that one...

Regarding the second half - perhaps the Dwarves and Night Elves were sent in reaction to the Blood Elf spies and saboteurs pointedly attacking the Draenei around the Exodar? Re-read the Darnassian Scout and Dwarven Spy quests - they were making maps of Blood Elf buildings. Yes, this information can be used for nefarious purpose, but it is not a guarantee of ill intent. It's a Darnassian Scout, not a Darassian Assasin or Darnassian Saboteur. I will give you, hands down, the fact Draenei instruct people to kill 10 Blood Elf Scout. However the Blood Elves are more actively and pointedly assaulting the Draenei in those zones. In game the aggression seems to start on behalf of the Blood Elves. They are not reacting. However, again, this can be laid at the feet of Kael'thas instructions. Quests clearly show he and his Legion allies are communicating with their agents on Azuremyst.

Widely known by the Blood Elves? Those guys who had been keeping entirely to themselves for years? Just because the Horde and Alliance knew this fact didn't mean it was common knowledge to the Blood Elves. Back to visual representation - you see an undead do you really care if it's saying "Hey, I'm a friend, trust me." That's like running upstairs in a horror movie. You just don't do it if you want to live.

I'll return to my thesis that there's no good reason the Blood Elves joined the Horde, so let's stop trying to manufacture one. They joined - years ago. Creating justification after the fact is unnecessary.

For the record - there are two good reasons why Draenei joined the Alliance. Both reasons could easily have swung the other direction. 1) they fell in the Night Elves lap. If they'd crashed in Mulgore or the Barrens I'd expect them to be pimping their auras for Thrall right now. 2) the Blood Elves tracked them to Azuremyst and Bloodmyst and tried to steal their stuff. Blood Elves joined Horde, so they kneejerked opposite direction. If Blood Elves had wildly chosen Alliance (for which they would also have had no good reason) then Draenei could easily have petitioned Thrall for protection.

Draenei joining the Horde would make even less sense than blood elves. The orcs nearly committed genocide on them.

but then again the Orcs committed genocide against the High Elves, too (they pretty much did that to everyone non orc/troll/tauren). It generally just doesn't make much sense however you slice it. I agree with Exemplar that it's a pointless, endless, circular topic and we should probably move past it.

Point of fact, according to the lore there's over 24,000 high elves left, most of them residing within the comfort and safety of stormwind. Given that there's an equal amount of gnomes and night elves in those same lore books, I'd say it would be perfectly viable to give the Alliance a High Elf race if they so chose. Don't point out "they said 'never' in the past". They've said "never" to a lot of things that have come to pass in recent months.

And again, Charmin, Garithos represented the remnants of Lordaeron. The "alliance" had been shattered long before, despite generally friendly relations between the human nations (save gilneas, which said bugger off) they were not a cohesive whole. The tired, inaccurate excuse of "blood elves joined horde 'cause of garithos" is bunk, because the closest representations to old lordaeron left in the game are the Argent Dawn and the Forsaken.

Edit: Nathanyel, I think at that point in the game timeline the Blood Elves are *all* loyal to Kael'thas. And con green to Horde that venture there, if I'm not mistaken. More informed, yes, but the elves in Silvermoon at that timeline point are also doing Kael's (or kael's subordinates') bidding. This is, of course, not withstanding the removal of M'Uru and the changing of the story with Sunwell, but that's more an oversight on blizzard's part than anything else.

Blood Elves joined the Horde because the people creating the pixels wanted more money, and the Horde customers paying them wanted a human-looking race. We all know that the money dictates the gameplay, which dictates the lore. Can we just leave it at that and leave this topic? We've gone nearly 100 pages without any biased, useless Horde vs. Alliance discussion.
(And before you say that Horde vs Alliance bias has nothing to do with this, look at the faction of each person responding to the pointless bickering in the last few pages. I'll bet you can guess their viewpoint before you read their post.)

Best explicitly stated reason I've seen yet.

I was hoping for some decent moderation/post deletion (in regards to interfactional hooey) pages ago, but I said as much about factional bickering and got a ban for it because somebody didn't like what I had to say, and issued a ban for a warning-worthy infraction.

Moving past this crap, who here fought the latest Airship Battle testing? While Muradin or Saurfang don't explicitly die, going down in a fiery wreck of an airship might well imply it. How do you think they'll handle the primary characters surviving, or not, as they move forward with the dungeon?

Neither Muradin nor Saurfang die, in battle or crash.

If you dps them to a certain health level, they'll just get pissed and wipe your raid. The goal is for us not to go for the Zerg solution, and instead focus on following the battle as intended: using cannons, killing mages and invading mobs, etc. Of course, this must also be done as fast as possible, as both the commanders have a damage-augmenting buff that piles up as the battle goes on.

Also, the airships don't crash when the battle ends, they drift away in flames, seemingly to land as soon as possibly. In the Alliance fight, Muradin says "Don't say I didn't warn ye". No clues as to the Horde version.

Ah, I was given the impression that they actually crashed. Good to know!

Saurfang says probably the same thing. The dialogue between the encounters is really interchangeable between the two, I heard.

Hopefully this still gives Saurfang an opportunity for his moment with Jr. and Muradin at least a piece of Arthas.