Bierzkrieg

I have a hard time imagining Saurfang saying "Don't say I didn't warn you", at least in the "drunk" joyful/serious state the dwarves like to be at all time.

As to Saurfang's meeting with his son...I still fear (well, not much since I'm Horde, so I'll get to watch, if it happens) that, in Alliance raids, the Saurfangs' reunion won't happen. Even if the father survives, going up that spire on foot will take lots of time, so, at best, he'll reach the upper tier just in time to watch the Alliance raiders loot his son's corpse. And even then, I'm being optimistic. I really believe the Alliance will lose one of the best subplots in Icecrown.

 

SubtleAmbition

Point taken, but the tone didn't have to be identical, rather the sentiment. Saurfang pins blame for pwning alliance ship on alliance for not backing off at his barking, same as Muradin.

...That would really suck if alliance couldn't even see the saurfang jr plotline at all, same for horde and muradin. Magni's brother has some pretty decent revenge motivation.

 

Bierzkrieg

Not sure on the Horde losing anything. Muradin's connection to Bolvar is residual, at the very least, so the biggest loss might be the dwarf not being present at the final fight.

Depends on the point of view, but I'd say the Saurfang family reunion tops those by quite a bit.

Unless the Horde doesn't meet with Bolvar, but that seems unlikely, at this point.

 

SubtleAmbition

I only meant at the final fight, not Bolvar.

I don't even think Muradin really knows Bolvar. Rather just knows OF him.

 

Leviathon

It seemed implied that the new Sunwell is no longer a fount of Arcane energy and instead is a fount of Holy energy.

The blood elves didn't 'follow' the draenei and were on the Exodar and part of Kael'thas' forces (they are even hostile to Horde blood elves). Initially it gave them the wrong impression but it seems pretty clear the draenei know the difference now and the fighting is solely faction based now.

I'd imagine both sides will get to see it in some way. We don't know how much is between the end of the airship battle and the Sarfang Jr fight and that can be used as the time needed for the losing side to have made it.

 

Bierzkrieg

[quote=Leviathon;1443267]It seemed implied that the new Sunwell is no longer a fount of Arcane energy and instead is a fount of Holy energy.[quote]

Wouldn't that mean only Light users would be able to syphon energy from the Sunwell, then? Thus making the purification of the Sunwell a mean to have a Naaru reborn and meaning Blood Elves would still need to keep drawing upon fel energies to maintain their magical abilities. Only the Sin'dorei Paladins and Holy Priests get some results, in that case.

 

Leviathon

Well they don't need the energy to use their magic (just like no other race does) but it is just something they need to empower them to keep them from needing to feed on other magic (it basically is like a drug addiction). I see no reason why being empowered by the new Sunwell wouldn't accomplish that similar to how the old Sunwell kept them sated regardless of what magic it is.

 

Bierzkrieg

If it's a pool of holy energy, how would arcane-wielders draw from it? More specifically, what would they draw?

Remember that there were very few Light-wielders among the elves, back in the good old days, and I'm guessing they wouldn't draw upon an arcane energy source.

 

Leviathon

Has it ever been said they specifically need to draw energy from those sources to use their normal arcane magic though? I always assumed they used the other sources to further empower them possibly but for the most part it was just since they became addicted to magic and nothing more and needed the Sunwell to make them not go to other sources such as Fel magic. Just every bit of lore I read says they used it to 'feed' themselves and not to actually use their magic.

 

Alliera

"Holy magic" isn't really magic as such -- it's divine energy, but there's a difference there.

 

Kaejin

@Jaconis: This is a lore thread. The reasons for the Blood Elves joining the Horde is legitimate discussion. Blizzard wanted the Blood Elves to join the Horde for marketing purposes, yes, but they gave good lore reasons for it as well. Ones that didn't involve retcons, to boot. Either way, this is the last I'll post about this because I'll agree that it's a boring argument when both sides are stubborn and believe they're right no matter what.

@Alliera: The Blood Elves were labeled traitors by the same part of the Alliance that labeled the Forsaken as monsters. Garithos' didn't have a problem treating the entire Blood Elf nation poorly and it's likely his survivors had similar views in their reports to whoever they reported to, if any existed and reported. Past that, the Blood Elves themselves no longer trust the humans because of Garithos so it's kind of a moot point. They could no longer trust their old allies so they searched for new ones. They found the Forsaken, led by one of Silvermoon's late generals. The Forsaken were able to trust the new Horde and had every bad experience with Orcs and Trolls in their former lives that Silvermoon had. To see that the new Horde honored their alliance with the Forsaken meant that the Blood Elves had a good chance with them as well.

@Exemplar: You're right about the NE and Dwarven Spies not actually being saboteurs, though that hardly harbors any trust for them among the Blood Elves (who had no idea what was going on on Azuremyst, so to Silvermoon it appears that the Alliance made the first aggressive move).

The Blood Elves may have been home trying to clean things up for a long time, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't get news about the world at large, nor does it mean they wouldn't send scouts out. Chances of them not noticing that there are sentient undead next door fighting against the Scourge and calling themselves the Forsaken are pretty much nil. They would have heard word from scouts or word of mouth from travelers. There have been plenty of good reasons for them to join the Horde brought up, there's no reason to manufacture one when the lore supports the obvious things we've been mentioning.

 

Masaru

New Lore.

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My first thought is that, wouldn't it be interesting from a raiding/gameplay standpoint if everyone in the raid had to have this weapon (or it's equivalent) equipped in order to defeat Lana'thel? As in the weapon had an equip effect that said something like "Equip: The aura of Quel'Delar surrounds you, allowing you to penetrate Queen Lana'thel's blood barrier." You couldn't attack her or do damage to her without it.

 

SubtleAmbition

Would be interesting but it would end up being a massive, questionably useful/fair block for guilds with bad luck or any sort of pickup group. It'd be UBRS all over again. "WTB someone with Quel'Delar, must not be saved! PST!"

For that to work the hilt would need to be a guaranteed drop off of some monster or another.

 

Enova

Now, the lore could be retconned over and over, or they could simply leave this intentionally unexplained, but would it be so strange if divine energies worked to soothe the blood elves' addiction to arcane energies to some degree?

All in all, it's just replacing one source of energy for another, and maybe not even with optimal results.

Or, here's another explanation: holy energies act as healing catalysts, slowly (key word - slowly) halting the development of the addiction (assuming of course it is a physiological addiction, due to the exposure to arcane magic).

Guilty as charged ^

 

Kaejin

I imagine if they could adapt from drawing arcane energy from the Well to drawing demonic energy from demons to drawing holy energy from M'uru (in the case of the Blood Knights), that drawing holy energy from the revived Sunwell would be simple enough.

I doubt that it's very different from a man living in Canada and drinking the water in Canada for his entire life, then moving to Mexico and drinking the water in Mexico. Sure he'll have the runs for a while, but his body will adapt and eventually he'll be drinking Mexican water like it was Canadian water.

Blood Elves are addicted to magic. They formerly siphoned arcane energy, but the switch to siphoning demonic energy shows that the addiction can be satisfied through other sources of magic.

 

ahz

I think we've touched a bit on the fate of the lich king here in this thread some, but I don't see a strong argument for who will take up the LK's mantle when arthas falls?
I think gameplay at this point dictates that we must have some explanation for the remaining undead forces after Arthas' defeat. Would they not just all fall over? Would they all become forsaken? Personally I don't see that happening from a game-story perspective. I think the writer(s) wants the Forsaken faction to feel somewhat small. My assumption therefore, is that one of Arthas' lieutenants will pick up his crown and attempt to remarshall those forces.

But who will it be? Likely candidates seem to be Bolvar or Saurfang Jr. But perhaps the Queen Lana'thel might take over? Maybe Kel'Thuzad will make his 3rd appearance and make off with the crown. Could it be that rage and revenge drive Varian Wrynn to assume the crown in some circumstance? All seem possible, but to me, ar also pretty lame.

Bolvar- A truly good paladin should never be turned. I very much doubt he will be the one.
Saurfang Jr.- then we have to call him LK Jr. Plus I believe he'll die in our bossfight against him. If he doesn't then it's the likeliest scenario.
Lana'thel- Two Queens of the Undead (sylvanas and lana)... I don't think so. With the Quel-delar lore I believe she will be destroyed by the blade.
Kel'Thuzad- WPL... err.... Dragonblight was a setback! There was a lot of jokes about Kael'thas and his incarnations, for KZ to return yet again, would be pretty lame.
Varian- This would be interesting, and I'd offer Garrosh up as a better candidate- but we all know that he's going to be leading the horde in the expansion so his role is cast. Varian might make a good tragic lich king replacement, but again this would require some big changes at home requiring some phasing. Also I think the whole point of the Varian character is to play counterpoint to Garrosh so the horde and alliance have something to fight over. So, unlikely.
New Character- like a Putress perhaps. Though personally I thought the Putress idea was pretty hasty and lazy plot device... he should have been introduced much much earlier.

 

Malthes

There are several vignettes in Silvermoon that show strained relations between the Silvermoon government and it's citizens. Lyria Skystrider calls into question the Blood Elves allegiance to the Horde and the Elves' addiction to magic, and gets mind-controlled for her trouble. Also, the harassed citizen at the entrance to the city implies political unrest as well. Not to mention the giant robot guards.

So, the Blood Elf/Horde allegiance very well could be explained as a fragile alliance of convenience/familiarity that the Blood Elf citizenry does not widely support. Of course, since these fragile allegiances have to be permanent for game play reasons (although, wouldn't it be cool someday if Blizzard had a race change faction?), hopefully further lore causes the ties to be strengthened.

 

Enova

Kel'Thuzad would certainly be funny if he made another comeback now. We've killed him what... 3 times now? (Warcraft 3, EPL Naxx, Dragonblight Naxx), and to make matters worse, this time there isn't even a phylactery, meaning some zealous cultist out there could just bring him back to live... again.

The most obvious idea is Ner'zhul still floating around somewhere, doing what he's always been good at (playing dead to survive), and finding a vulnerable champion. However, given the scheme to corrup Arthas, I wouldn't expect the next champion to just pick up Frostmourne and magically start wearing black and sleeping in a coffin. Why change the winning scenario? Coax him into fighting for a noble goal and sap his confidence from within...

Guilty as charged ^

 

Maledict

Erm, what?

High Elves were the principle users of light magic in the alliance army in Warcraft 3 - the priest unit is very clearly a high elf, bouncy ears and all. High Elves have always been frequent users of light magic.

 

Alliera

Your analogy doesn't fly. Magic in Azeroth comes originally from the Well of Eternity, and when the Well of Eternity imploded, ley lines were established all across the planet. Those ley lines are sources of magic. Divine energy has nothing to do with ley lines. It is not really "magic".

Imagine arcane energy as a drug -- a drug that doesn't have much side effects, except it can get you hooked under extreme circumstances, both physically and psychologically. Under normal circumstances, there's no side effects at all -- they only show when you're suddenly deprived of it after being completely immersed in it for your entire life. Fel energy is the same drug, but contaminated with something else... corrupted. It has drawbacks that the arcane energy doesn't (mainly being corrupting), but it is still magic.

Divine energy isn't a drug -- there's no chance of becoming addicted, at least not physically. (You could be psychologically addicted to the power it brings, I suppose -- I'd say many of the Scarlet Crusaders, such as Isillien, are.)

Magic is the lifeblood of demons -- Sargeras, Archimonde, and Kil'jaeden all go through quite a few hoops in order to try and steal it away from Azeroth. Divine energy would likely only harm them, though.

I'm not saying it's impossible that they could switch from arcane and fel energies to divine energy... I just don't think that's what happened. Anveena was the personification of the Sunwell's arcane energies, and her power was used, corrupted, to turn the physical Sunwell into a portal for Kil'jaeden. M'uru's sacrifice cleansed that power and the Sunwell, restoring it. I'm certain there's also divine energies coming from it (the blood knights seem to get their powers from there now, at least)... I just don't see why it would only be divine. There's nothing inherently wrong about arcane magic, at least not when used in moderation.

 

Emeraude

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Anveena wasn't just a personification, she WAS the Sunwell, the Sunwell Manga trilogy made this very very clear. Kil'Jaeden used her to come through to our world, it just so happens that there was a circular portal in the middle of the room for aesthetics, that the demons themselves created. After she sacrificed herself to push Kil'Jaeden back through, Valen appears with the husk of M'uru, and he creates a new actual Sunwell of sorts with that energy(Since there's water you can stand in and Liadrin walks into).

There was no actual physical Well in that instance until after Kil'Jaeden is beaten, there was just Anvenna.

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Kaejin

My analogy to switching water sources was only taking into account that power is power (water is water, magic is magic). Yes, arcane magic is addicting and divine magic isn't. We don't know if the arcane addiction can be sated through holy magic. I would think it can be. Consider the fact that M'uru was originally sent to Silvermoon by Kael'thas to be drained as fodder to sate the magic addiction his people suffered.

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Either way, the Sunwell is most likely purely a source of holy magic now. It's unlikely that M'uru would, as a Naaru, become a font of arcane energy and also unlikely that Velen would create a font of arcane energy. Both beings are entrenched in the holy and know that the arcane is a lure for demons (and incidentally, Kil'jaeden was just repelled prior to the restoration of the Sunwell).

Now, on the distinction between the two kinds of magic. The Well of Eternity is only the origin of arcane magic on Azeroth. Divine magics are the likes of the Holy Light, Shamanism, Druidism, and partly Voodoo. It's derived of gods, spirits, and faith.

Magic isn't exclusively arcane in Warcraft lore, it's the unnatural (more or less by the standards of reality). Conjuring fire and frost, summoning, teleporting, healing the wounded and curing diseases, causing plants to grow at a rapid pace, imbuing weapons with similar effects, etc.

It took me a long time to sort out what I wanted to say in this post so I hope I didn't forget something.

 

Alliera

So they never tried to feed off of the Naaru. Who says it would have been possible? What they did instead obviously was, but that doesn't mean they could have fulfilled Kael'thas' initial intention.

M'uru did not have to "become" a fount of arcane energy. The Sunwell was already one. The Sunwell is located at a convergence of ley lines, and it was made from water taken from the Well of Eternity. It most certainly DID have a physical representation, Emeraude, aside from the energies that Anveena embodied -- Arthas used the physical Sunwell to resurrect Kel'Thuzad into the form of a lich, which corrupted it. Krasus turned the remaining energies from the Sunwell into Anveena, not the corrupted water. Kil'jaeden used the corrupted water, along with some of Anveena's energies, as a portal to enter Azeroth.

There's no doubt that the Sunwell radiates divine energy -- that much is made clear from Liadrin's reaction. But I see no reason why it cannot also remain a fount of arcane energy.

 

Leviathon

Kael'thas blew what was left of the Sunwell up and afterwords Krasus took the energies that were left to make Anveena. So in the end there was no water left.

 

Kaejin

I would think if Kael'thas thought it was possible, he either knew it was possible because they already fed off of M'uru before sending him, or he had good reason to believe it was possible. Kael was a powerful mage of the Kirin Tor, and the one that taught his people to siphon demonic energy to sate their magic addiction in the first place. He wasn't some clueless slacker.