Well, them pesky dreadlords are masters at reappearing at disappearing and reappearing in the least expected roles, so it's not completely out of question, I'd say. At the very least, if Mal'ganis somehow managed to take the Lich King mantle without anyone knowing, it could open the possibility of a Legion return, post-Cataclysm.

However, should another Legion invasion start with a Lich King and an undead offensive, it'd be Warcraft 3 all over again. And I'm guessing and hoping Blizzard can come up with something other than "Yes, the attack plan is similar, but with subtle yet important differences." So that probably kills the Dreadlich King possibility.

Honestly, while I trust something interesting could be done with a successor Lich King, I'd rather let the concept die. Simply. Still, a few posts ago, someone suggested Bolvar sacrificing himself by donning the helm and remaining at Icecrown, letting his will fight whichever's still in the armor (this is assuming Ner'zhul still inhabits the damn thing) into a stalemate. This would prevent Azeroth's undead from going unchecked and basically neutralize the Scourge's threat...for a while, at least. I liked this idea a lot and, if killing the Lich King for good isn't an option, then I'd vote for this. It suits Bolvar's tragic fate as well.

The forces of the Scourge will not "die", they'll not be destroyed if the Lich King gets killed.
There have been undead before, either raised by their own will or a necromancer, who directly commanded the zombies. The Scourge in many parts seems to be a mix of that, as certain Scourge units show initiative and even have the freedom to question the Lich King slash their undeath, but they cannot rebel, because the Lich King ultimately controls them.

The Forsaken got free when the Lich King was weakened. Presumably they can remain free because once they got back complete control over their bodies, the Lich King could not control them anymore, at least not without direct contact or a channeling device. This would also explain Forsaken DKs, they got captured/killed and then were controlled again/re-raised. I've got a faint memory that Sylvanas, and probably the other Forsaken, too, still hear his whispers, but are able to withstand them.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade were able to break free after recognizing they were to be sacrificed, though probably either Tirion or the secret that lies under the Chapel had something to do with that, too.

Other Scourge would simply turn "free" once the Lich King's influence wanes. Depending on the state of their mind and body, they'd become either free and self-aware beings again or stay mindless, but uncontrolled creatures.
For continuity's sake, most Scourge around the world might just go on with what they were doing, by lack of initiative and/or new orders. The few self-aware "officer" units among them could be holding out for an in their eyes possible return of the old, or the rise of a new Lich King.

Not that I would ask for corresponding changes in lower-level content. This is a multiplayer world after all, and quests are meant to be done at their appropriate level. The changes for Cataclysm already mean massive amounts of work, though many quests in the 1-60 range will stay the same or change only in terms of level and number of mobs to kill. A complete redo would mean too much work, and people could argue that the next expansion needed that, too, etc.
WotLK introduced phasing, but even that only affects small areas of the world. Also, it has problems with grouped content: Someone may not able yet to see the NPCs his group members are slaying or, if you remember the problems with the Zul'Drak quest achievement, some people were not able to complete it because they couldn't see certain questgivers anymore.

Well, I was assuming most undead who'd be left behind were lower-tier soldiers or even mindless things as ghouls. Since the most important Scourge leaders and generals are at Northrend, and many others were taken care of in Azeroth, whatever danger resulted from the Lich King's destruction would come from deranged zombies. Either that or Forsaken would gain one massive boost in numbers...I'm curious to see how Blizzard will handle this technicality.

Still, either way, it would make sense for Bolvar to try to control the remaining undead. Wether they roam mindlessly or enlist with the Forsaken, it's always bad news for everyone else.

I think that this is absolutely not true. If, according to pictures at Blizzcon (such as this one) the leveling process is going to be revamped, why would quests not get a revamp as well? I don't really see how you're going to take the time to adjust everything in Western Plaguelands to be level 35-40 instead of 50+ and not also change the storyline and quests involved. Not to mention the improvements that Blizzard has made in design and quest hubs since vanilla. If I'm helping Tirion find 20 carrion grub meat at level 41 after Cataclysm, I'm going to be disappointed.

To be honest, it's not like there are tons of undead around vanilla WoW anyway. Five zones total? The Death Knight starting area would be one that doesn't need to be touched, as well (unless, somehow, the Alliance and Horde are making their own DKs after defeating the Lich King).

Completely just a "what if" thing here, but what if defeating the Lich King actually started the Cataclysm sequence on the server?

Think in terms of the AQ gates and the "unlocking of the gates." Concievably, some of the zones could start their change for cataclysm once guilds defeat the server first hardmode Arthas. Defeat Arthas and a sequence starts with Garrosh/Thrall in Orgrimmar that results in Garrosh taking over. A few days later, Barrens has a giant volcanic gash in it. Cairne dies in some sad event, etc. You could have some skeletal fire dragon rising from the sea at Stormwind harbor.



Anyways, yes, I realize there's almost no basis for it... But it would be a fantastic lore move on Blizzard's part. Arthas dies, Cataclysm instantly starts.

Well, the trailer said "as the fight against the Lich King continues/rages", the Cataclysm takes place. Blizzard's said it wouldn't actually be at the same time, if I recall correctly. Perhaps they meant groups like the Twilight Hammer are already in motion - the Comic seems to imply that as well.

I also assume that Garrosh is pulling the Horde strings by the time the Cataclysm takes place, or at least these are very close events, but there's no certain way to know it. So, I'd say the Cataclysm takes place while the factions are returning from Northrend. Most likely, the immediate consequences (like losses) and rush of the Lich King battle will still be felt.

So it's highly unlikely that Arthas' death triggers the Cataclysm.

Valithria Dreamwalker fight was tested on the PTR. The fight requires to to heal her to full while defending her from adds that keep spawning. Besides a pretty cool fight mechanic (especially for healers where throughput will be everything) it's nice to see we aren't just fighting another corrupted good guy. The question becomes what were they doing to Valithria while she was captured but seeing as how there have been many instances of green dragon's power being used (and perverted) for various plagues that is where my money would go.

Perhaps a big version of the Scholomance plague whelps?

Maybe we can farm her for argent dawn rep.

Continuity-wise i think it will be strange yes.

It's odd as it is, to go back to EPL and see Tirion there hanging out by himself with his horse after you've helped him at the Argent Tourney in Icecrown. Hopefully a little more phasing will be used to smooth out the story in old azeroth.

While I love the idea of the world changing in drastic ways, I do fear that it will be done in a clunky way and seem very strange and buggy? when traversing the older content. However, I don't think they should NOT go forward with the changes. A changing, reacting world, that players effect is like MMO nirvana.

As far as I've understood, the questing revamp is mostly to improve the leveling experience for new players/re-rolls so that 1-60 is a much quicker, flowing experience with better rewards (no more useless agility/spirit plate etc). IIRC the goal is to make 1-60 take as long as 60-70 currently does in Outlands, which isn't all that long these days.

The thing about leveling is that it's relative to the level of the zone that you're in. If you're level 55 questing in Silithus, C'thun is alive and a very real threat that the Cenarion Circle is working against. If you're level 69 and questing in Shadowmoon Valley, Illidan is still very much alive until you step foot in Northrend and that story has progressed to a new one after his death. Keeping it that way ensures that new players at least get a feel for the story of what happened there - even if they'll never get the chance to undertake that content at the original level.

The way I view the revamp is that it updates the chronology of vanilla WoW. Most of the level 1-60 dungeons and raids are going to be updated or inaccessable in Cataclysm (look at Naxx and Ony, e.g.). I personally doubt that AQ40 will be a level 60 raid in WoW 4.0. The way the new progression is set up, there's just too much that has to change in some zones to think that all quests and plots from vanilla wow will be untouched and explained away as "oh, they're waiting for the next Lich King/Old God/Broodmother). Some zones will be mostly untouched (think Arathi, which has no real chronology-sensitive plot), but many will be completely redone (Thousand Needles, obviously).

Ideally, I would love there to be level 60-70 zones IN Azeroth, as then the Outland chronology time warp would be optional (the Northrend Timewarp is explained away by the first line of the Cataclysm trailer). But I will probably have to suspend a little disbelief when my alts hit 58.

I've been under the impression that they're not trying, that this represents an update of the entire old world. The Old Horde will be destroyed, C'Thun and the Qiraji have been defeated (though the comics seem to confirm that C'Thun is still "alive" in whatever sense an Old God was alive in the first place, just that his material form is kaput), and so on. A new Level 1 character, no matter the race, is going to live in this post-Cataclysm world, I think - at least on Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms.

The only interesting things here, then, are what they do with TBC and WotLK content. The Quel'Delar questline seems to confirm a rehabilitated Sunwell as canon, so are they going to revise Quel'Danas? Illidan, Vashj and Kael'thas are definitively beaten, so are we going to see any changes to Outland? It's hard to know whether they are going to bother to eliminate these "going back in time" issues. As little sense as it would make lore-wise to roll up your new Level 1 Worgen Dude, level to 58, then go to an Outland still fought over by Illidan and the Legion, get to 68 and then go to a Northrend still controlled by the Lich King, I also don't see Blizzard obviating all their (rather excellent) hard work on an expansion and having to redo huge chunks of it a year or two later. I could certainly be wrong (and about my more specific notions almost certainly am), but I think we may have to swallow some oddities of the timeline.

Every now and then you see those exact questions pop up in blue trackers, and the response is always,
"We won't be changing Northrend or Outlands much, if at all. If you're levelling in Outlands, it's presumed you're participating in that part of the timeline. If you're levelling in Northrend, Malygos, Arthas and the Scourge are very much still a threat."

It will feel a bit clunky to go from a post-Cataclysm world to a pre-Cataclysm world for ~20 levels and then back again, but there's not much else they can do aside from eliminate years worth of past-expansion content for the sake of a fluid levelling experience.

Whilst the discussion on Kael'Thas is open, I find it funny that his Verdant Sphere speech in Shattrath clearly detailed exactly what was on the horizon, yet so many people were shocked and dismayed that he was indeed still alive, and that Kil'Jaeden was the final boss of the expanson - not Illidan. I guess it goes to show how much attention people pay to those city-wide announcements.

It's hard to predict what memes are going to form from anyway. There's no particular reason for "In the mountains" to be anything special either. And it's got obvious humour potential, given that WoW villains are only slightly less durable than those in Marvel comics.

Oh yeah, and regarding the Frostmourne Subzone, it's definitely in Icecrown Citadel and not the Halls of Reflection. In the Data files it's listed with a _ICECROWN_RAID_ prefix.


EDIT: When Blizzcon was playing live, I was typing out a complete log of everything that was said/shown on my guild forums, and I've been going over it all again today. Alot of stuff appears to have been announced and forgotten since then, by the looks of recent discussions. I've made a copy of the post and hosted it in the public section of our forums for anyone who's interested in refreshing themselves on the Blizzcon/Cataclysm announcements. Most of it is word-for-word transcript, with some summaries.

View topic - Blizzcon 09 Coverage

I wonder if Arthas' Hard mode will have a different ending then his Normal mode. Blizzard showed in Ulduar at least that you needed to progress through Hard modes to get to the heavy lore section & boss in Algalon. I wonder if similar measures might be taken for Arthas.

Even if you just mean the 4.0, so pre-expansion launch event, some servers will not see Arthas downed in hardmode, at least not 25man, hence they wouldn't have the event. Plus, as pointed out later, his defeat and the cataclysm are not related at all, except maybe Neltharion's plan to attack the mortal races while the majority of their armies are still in Northrend.

I don't see a need to phase lower-level content - people might want to return slash come here for the first time, just think of Loremaster, but these quests, the zones are supposed to be visited at their appropriate level. Also, changes that happen to everyone, like Varimathras and the UC abos being replaced, or the Cataclysm, can only go so far, else new characters would just come to a zone void of mobs, just some NPCs saying "We had some raptor/centaur/gnoll issues, but these were all slain by some adventurers that came through. Oh, you wanted to level here? Well, sucks to be late."

Well, that's still going to happen, unless by lower you mean 1-5 or 1-10 only. But Barrens is changing, Azshara too, as is Thousand Needles and Western Plaguelands. So, yes, new characters might just get told "Heroes have done so-and-so to the previous evils inhabiting this land, but now a new threat arises".

The Cataclysm changes are for everyone.

One way they could make the lore exposure of the encounter dynamic would be to control the difficulty with a mechanic similar to the yogg encounter. On normal mode you could ask Bolvar for assistance against Arthas, but he will die during the fight.

I really like the idea of having some dramatically different encounter elements, as they accomplish their goal of providing access to content, but make the encounters feel more rewarding to complete.

I'm pretty sure we already have some comment on Silithus from one of the interviews. If I remember correctly, they are not doing much at all in the way of changes to the place. Probally just not worth the effort to bother changing it, Silithus is far from a popular zone with the playerbase.

I'd say the reverse. Because it's unpopular should be the best reason to change it. It's the perfect opportunity to fix flaws - just look at the changes intended for the widely disliked Desolace, or the "Barrens and Darkshore are too long" issues. Not that I recall differently regarding their lack of much intended change to Silithus.

Great idea. I was thinking only of the end cinematic, but a more active aid by other characters is a very valuable option.

On Silithus, it shouldn't really be a priority. The focus, wether everyone likes it or not, are the later zones. Of course Blizzard is also putting a lot of zones to the hammer and changing them deeply, but I'd rather see them put a lot of work on some designated zones and really improve them than try and dig holes and volcanoes in all of them - truth be told, Blizzard said every zone would be changed, to a degree, so holes and volcanoes it is, at least.

Silithus has had a major even there, been the stage for a second Qiraji war and a very meaningful cooperation between Horde and Alliance. I think it's understandable that others get some patching up done, now. Desolace, for example, is very poorly liked, in general, as are the Stonetalon Mountains. Thousand Needles and Darkshore also suffer from this. And sometimes they're almost mandatory for leveling.

A valid point could be done for just every zone in the game, be it Azeroth or Outland. So I'll trust that Blizzard had the better ideas for x, y and z zones and let them implement. Above all, I hope the new 80-85 areas are entertaining, especially bearing in mind that the level span has decreased in half.