World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 262

Rannasha · 11/04/09, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Munorion

Hmmmm, in the mmo-champion write-up, the last line reads

which would change the dynamics of the scene pretty drastically - he's not telling him to retreat, he's acknowledging an order. Which version is the correct one (I can't access the sound files here at the moment)?

It definitely sounds like "Right away" to me.

Wildfire · 11/04/09, 5:15 AM

PS_Tyrannus_Slay02 - Perhaps you should have stayed, in the mountains!

Thats beautiful Blizzard. I hope its read with the same inflections Thorim had, for extra effect.

Cosa · 11/04/09, 5:50 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

The BIG secret to the Lich King:
Jaine: You're right Uther forgive me. I...I don't know what got ahold of me. We will deliever this information to the king and the knights who battle within Icecrown Citadel.
Uther: There is... something else you should know about the Lich King. Control over the Scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King another would have to take his place. For without the control of its master the Scourge would run rampant across the world destroying all living things.
Uther: A grand sacrifice by a noble soul.
Jaina: Who could bear such a burden?
Uther: I do not know Jaina, I suspect the piece of Arthas that may be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.

I simply don't get it why. We have defeated undead minions from early levels over WPL/EPL/Nax60 to Northrend. We have defeated each sub boss in Arthas's command. We cleaned up his citadel (we will). And then someone have to take over because scourge will "run rampant". Isn't that bit too cowardly? Ok I understand that maybe killing such a lore character like Lich King might trigger some world even where undeads run rampant but isn't this expansion and act of killing Lich King just proved that Scourge is weak enough to be beaten by mortals. Yes I know that Blizz have 101% rights to change lore according to what they need/want but simple - I dislike this "lore-forging" out of nothing, creating new future lore character and so on.

Qaenyin · 11/04/09, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

Vaelestraz dies, Keristraza dies, the Four Horsemen die, Razorgore dies (well, we do the mind controlling there, mostly) etc. Not even mind control isn't a 100% certain way of having a character redeemed. Closest we get is to anything like redemption in the Warcraft universe is Grom, but the non-linear story of the Warcraft III game makes it a lot easier to pull off without further implications to gameplay. EDIT: Dicounting Medivh from this one, since his redemption pretty much starts happening in the books.

At any rate, been looking over (yeah, I know, listening is the correct word here) the sound files, and here are some thoughts that crossed my mind as I was browsing them:

- Marrowgar sounds awesome;
- Why the fuck are there two versions of each of Putricide's lines (labelled IC_Putricide and IC_HPutricide, respectivly), with different voice acting?
- Valanar seems to have 6 distinct death sounds, and while I appreciate a bit of variety in the outcome of a fight, aren't 6 very similar yet distinct groans a bit too much?
- I really like how sideshow characters (like Crok Scourgebane) are somehow given their moment on the spotlight, such as a customized verbal duel with Sister Svalna;
- The random NPC tauren sound like Space Marines, and the random Dreanei like Russian mobsters

- The Lanathel speech has a lot of potential indeed.

Regarding Putricide, I'm assuming the former is for normal mode and the latter for hardmode. Most likely Putricide in hard mode imbues himself with slime power or something and transforms in some way, and his voice changes as a result.

Regarding Valanar, that's a good question. If he has that many death noises it's possible he dies multiple times during the fight(maybe some Feral Defender-esque mechanic?).

Vaccine · 11/04/09, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cosa

I simply don't get it why. We have defeated undead minions from early levels over WPL/EPL/Nax60 to Northrend. We have defeated each sub boss in Arthas's command. We cleaned up his citadel (we will). And then someone have to take over because scourge will "run rampant". Isn't that bit too cowardly? Ok I understand that maybe killing such a lore character like Lich King might trigger some world even where undeads run rampant but isn't this expansion and act of killing Lich King just proved that Scourge is weak enough to be beaten by mortals. Yes I know that Blizz have 101% rights to change lore according to what they need/want but simple - I dislike this "lore-forging" out of nothing, creating new future lore character and so on.

I don't really think it is a change of anything we knew already, they are mainly just saying that a part of Arthas has always been holding the scourge back or in control. If he goes as the head honcho, they all go on a rampage. Probably not enough to do anything productive, just destroy all they come across.

The only thing I dislike is that it looks like it will be another human paladin taking on the reigns. I mean it feels like 50% of the important lore characters are male human paladins.

Airraid · 11/04/09, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

- Why the fuck are there two versions of each of Putricide's lines (labelled IC_Putricide and IC_HPutricide, respectivly)

I'm guessing from the H in the file name that there are two different sets of sound files for the normal and hard mode versions.

[edit: too slow!]

Bierzkrieg · 11/04/09, 6:44 AM

Quick note: Anyone else got their Horde-sense tingling when hearing Saurfang Jr.'s "*laug* Dwarf" line?

On shoehorning characters' deaths: I'm a deathdiddly fan, as far as important characters are concerned, but to be honest, it does seem to be getting less likely that we'll be seeing Saurfang dead. At least in battle with his son.

Now this here is priceless:

PS_Tyrannus_Kite01 - Power... Overwhelming!

And I dearly hope Jaina doesn't have another moment like the one at the Halls of Reflection while we're fighting in the Frozen Throne. She says she needed to look into his eyes one last time, which apparently gets the Lich King's attention or at least makes Jaina dumbfounded for a moment. So thank Lady Proudmoore, Alliance players.

And then there's this

HR_Jaina_HR17 - It ... It's a dead end ... We have no choice but to fight! Steal yoursef heroes, for this is our last stand!

Do you think we'll be cornered by the Lich King and be granted some miraculous last-minute save? Or does Jaina decide to come out of her stupor and do something? Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, it could just be her line in case we don't choose the right path to exit the Halls of Reflection.

Kollar · 11/04/09, 7:14 AM

The BIG secret to the Lich King:
Jaine: You're right Uther forgive me. I...I don't know what got ahold of me. We will deliever this information to the king and the knights who battle within Icecrown Citadel.
Uther: There is... something else you should know about the Lich King. Control over the Scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King another would have to take his place. For without the control of its master the Scourge would run rampant across the world destroying all living things.
Uther: A grand sacrifice by a noble soul.
Jaina: Who could bear such a burden?
Uther: I do not know Jaina, I suspect the piece of Arthas that may be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.

So this corresponds perfectly with what I posted earlier. Tirion prepares to sacrifice himself, but someone will "take one for the team" (Bolvar...) then being stuck in a eternal struggle to keep the Scourge controlled.

Ashur25 · 11/04/09, 7:20 AM

It also fits perfectly with what Blizzard has said for some time: That we will kill Arthas, but the Lich King? not so much

Bierzkrieg · 11/04/09, 7:32 AM

That we don't kill the Lich King is rather vague in itself. It could mean a million things, from Ner'zhul's spirit regaining control and fleeing, to Jaina picking the helmet, etc etc.

What Kollar is saying is that it ties with his theory that Bolvar will be the one to endure the burden of donning the Lich King's mantle and keep the Scourge in check. He was the one to introduce this theory in this thread, to my knowledge.

It's a very fitting and tragic end for Bolvar.

What I don't understand is how Jaina comes to the conclusion that there's nothing left of Arthas to save, Uther berates her for hoping too much, but at the same time tells her there's indeed a piece of Arthas inside the Lich King. And it's keeping the Scourge in check! How so? Are we now to find out that the reason we were never Lich-nuked in the multiple occasions we've stood close to the Lich King is because he was holding back, unconsciously? That that's the reason why we achieved so many victories against the Scourge?

urotas · 11/04/09, 7:34 AM

It seems like the Alliance and the Horde will make a temporary peace after the Gunship battle. Whatever happens to spark the war again must happen later in the Icecrown Citadel. Perhaps we co-operate until the Lich King is defeated, and then the war starts over who's going to sacrifice themselves to be the new Lich King. Neither faction would trust the other to gain that power over the undead.

• Leguaran · 11/04/09, 7:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

That we don't kill the Lich King is rather vague in itself. It could mean a million things, from Ner'zhul's spirit regaining control and fleeing, to Jaina picking the helmet, etc etc.

What Kollar is saying is that it ties with his theory that Bolvar will be the one to endure the burden of donning the Lich King's mantle and keep the Scourge in check. He was the one to introduce this theory in this thread, to my knowledge.

It's a very fitting and tragic end for Bolvar.

What I don't understand is how Jaina comes to the conclusion that there's nothing left of Arthas to save, Uther berates her for hoping too much, but at the same time tells her there's indeed a piece of Arthas inside the Lich King. And it's keeping the Scourge in check! How so? Are we now to find out that the reason we were never Lich-nuked in the multiple occasions we've stood close to the Lich King is because he was holding back, unconsciously? That that's the reason why we achieved so many victories against the Scourge?

Not enough to redeem, but enough of him left in there to make a difference.

Bierzkrieg · 11/04/09, 7:37 AM

Actually, I think everyone trusts Bolvar. Unless Garrosh decides to show up at Icecrown, and even then, I doubt he'd be such a brick-head.

Perhaps Varian's gesture of good will towards Saurfang doesn't move Garrosh and he still goes on with his expansionist agenda.

@Leguaran: that should be enough for Jaina to get herself killed trying just oooone last time. There, I shoehorned another death. But, even without her dying, it's plausible the Lich King attempts to goad her into something like that. It would, at the very least, make a complete monster of him...tricking the woman he loved.

urotas · 11/04/09, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Actually, I think everyone trusts Bolvar. Unless Garrosh decides to show up at Icecrown, and even then, I doubt he'd be such a brick-head.

I didn't mean people would distrust Bolvar. Rather I could see someone like Varian or Garrosh offering to sacrifice themselves to take up the Crown, and neither faction would trust the other. Bolvar would end up taking up the role of the Lich King as a more neutral party, while the Alliance and Horde are coming to blows over who should do it. Bolvar would end the debate on who the new king will be, but at that moment the damage to peace would have already been done.

Bierzkrieg · 11/04/09, 8:49 AM

Something else to add to the debate...

HR_Uther_Alliance03 - No girl, Arthas is not here. Arthas is merely a presence within the Lich Kings mind. A dwindling presence.

It's getting stranger by the minute...If this is true, then Ner'zhul is still alive and in control. And Arthas killing him and Mathias Lehner was an illusion by the orc, possibly to keep Arthas' still "twitching" spirit in check by giving him a false sense of control.

Still, like Leguaran said above, whatever Arthas is left isn't enough to have him redeemed. Not that he deserved...

Munorion · 11/04/09, 9:37 AM

It's getting stranger by the minute...If this is true, then Ner'zhul is still alive and in control. And Arthas killing him and Mathias Lehner was an illusion by the orc, possibly to keep Arthas' still "twitching" spirit in check by giving him a false sense of control.

I think it's safe to assume that Uther refers to the human part of Arthas, the Arthas that he knew. That this is gone doesn't mean that Ner'zhul is somehow still there.

Aildrik · 11/04/09, 10:21 AM

"Uther: There is... something else you should know about the Lich King. Control over the Scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King another would have to take his place. For without the control of its master the Scourge would run rampant across the world destroying all living things."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in WC3, when the Frozen Throne was cracked/damaged, and the Lich King's power was reduced, it resulted in some of the scourge being set "free" and becoming the Foresaken.

This whole schtick of keeping the Lich King around in some way, shape or form seems cheesy in light of that, because:
1. Past events would indicate that you would simply have more free willed undead ala the Foresaken running around and
2. There isn't any indication that the undead are numerous enough or enough of a threat that we couldn't wipe them all out if they did go nuts.

My guess is that Blizzard is just trying to avoid another anti-climatic "kill the foozle" ending to the Lich King story, but their reasoning, told through Uther, just seems weak and a flimsy excuse to martyr Bolvar.

Tinwhisker · 11/04/09, 10:40 AM

Having a new character take up the mantle of Lich King and "keep them in check" also allows Blizzard to keep places like EPL/WPL/Northrend/etc infested with a certain amount of scourge, ie any zone that currently has scourge may continue to and that's one less thing to revamp.

If it ends up being that Bolvar takes on the responsibility of keeping them from spreading like a mindless plague over the world, then having scourge around in small groups that you need to defeat can be easily explained. Eternally an enemy and a threat, never truly defeated but at the same time with Bolvar pseudo-controlling them they can never again be a formidable threat as they are now.

thedopefishlives · 11/04/09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Aildrik

"Uther: There is... something else you should know about the Lich King. Control over the Scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King another would have to take his place. For without the control of its master the Scourge would run rampant across the world destroying all living things."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in WC3, when the Frozen Throne was cracked/damaged, and the Lich King's power was reduced, it resulted in some of the scourge being set "free" and becoming the Foresaken.

The Forsaken became so because they had a strong-willed leader (Sylvanas) to rally them to a real cause, and at least some semblance of their own will. If the Lich King were to just fall over dead, large populations of mindless Scourge would be left with nothing but base, animal instinct. Think Army of the Dead, times about a million.

Aildrik · 11/04/09, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

The Forsaken became so because they had a strong-willed leader (Sylvanas) to rally them to a real cause, and at least some semblance of their own will. If the Lich King were to just fall over dead, large populations of mindless Scourge would be left with nothing but base, animal instinct. Think Army of the Dead, times about a million.

Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the lich king being removed would result in rampaging undead and not more Foresaken. I just don't see them as any worse threat than past threats (qiraji, etc). As a matter of fact, without any central leadership or cingularity to drive them, how would they even co-ordinate be a threat beyond Northrend? What would they do? Build ships? Form a complex invasion plan for the rest of Azeroth? Even if you factor in scourge that can fly or move around by magical means, I think the lack of cohesion would just mean we have a bunch of pissed off undead milling about up north and in various pockets around Azeroth.

IMHO there just needs to be a little more; something really devastating that absolutely requires the scourge to be controlled (a scourge-run fusion reactor under Icecrown Citadel, etc).

Korlis · 11/04/09, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

The Forsaken became so because they had a strong-willed leader (Sylvanas) to rally them to a real cause, and at least some semblance of their own will. If the Lich King were to just fall over dead, large populations of mindless Scourge would be left with nothing but base, animal instinct. Think Army of the Dead, times about a million.

they would lose a large number of their own forces before we even got to see a bit of them, especially in the power struggle that ensues after the fact. The Val'kyr and the rest of the -ir tribes would be free of the LK's influence and be rendered harmless as they rebuild themselves. The death-knights and sentient undead would seek a similar fate as the forsaken, perhaps join the Ashen Verdict/Ebon Blade/(third as of yet unknown group). The Nerubians would certainly retreat to Azjol-nerub also to rebuild their fallen empire. Perhaps a new Hero will emerge to represent the Nerub in more than just the "anub-arak was the traitor king omg lets kill him, we're spider-people go away, we're also recluses," image we've been given thus far.

The rest of the "shambling undead" would be a mopped up rather quick with the combined forces of the Ashen Verdict.

That's just how I see it though.

Tyrian · 11/04/09, 11:48 AM

Alexstrasza: [Draconic] They must not discover the fate of the young paladin. Not yet.

The Boon of Alexstrasza - Quest - World of Warcraft
You must understand, young <race>, that cleansing the body in favor of life anew is something well within my grasp... removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body, however, is beyond the scope of the powers that I control.

Is it possible that Alexstrasza saw the future and knew of what ultimately would happen to Bolvar? We assumed she was referring to Bolvar being captured and tortured, but perhaps she also knew he would take up the helm after The Lich King dies. That this was his true fate: to be stuck in an eternal Tel'rasha type struggle to contain the Scourge? (A concept never really thought about during Wrathgate when these Draconic translations of her speech surfaced).

To faciliate this fate, she imbued his body with fire. Knowing she can't cure anyone of the scourge, she imbued a being who would be capable of containing it. This would imply that "Lavaman" is an intentional creation of Alexstrasza, not The Lich King. Makes alot of poetic sense, that only the Guardian of Life could create a strong enough vessel to protect Azeroth.

This would assume that any mere mortal would be corrupted by wearing The Lich King's helm, and that only a being created and imbued by Alexstrasza herself could handle the burden.

• Leguaran · 11/04/09, 11:56 AM

Anyone else having any issues loading up Lavaman model this last PTR push? it flat out refuses to load up for me. I wanted to check for new animations or anything of the sort, but, the model just doesn't load.

Faldrath · 11/04/09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Is it possible that Alexstrasza saw the future and knew of what ultimately would happen to Bolvar? We assumed she was referring to Bolvar being captured and tortured, but perhaps she also knew he would take up the helm after The Lich King dies. That this was his true fate: to be stuck in an eternal Tel'rasha type struggle to contain the Scourge? (A concept never really thought about during Wrathgate when these Draconic translations of her speech surfaced).

To faciliate this fate, she imbued his body with fire. Knowing she can't cure anyone of the scourge, she imbued a being who would be capable of containing it. This would imply that "Lavaman" is an intentional creation of Alexstrasza, not The Lich King. Makes alot of poetic sense, that only the Guardian of Life could create a strong enough vessel to protect Azeroth.

This would assume that any mere mortal would be corrupted by wearing The Lich King's helm, and that only a being created and imbued by Alexstrasza herself could handle the burden.

That would make some sense, but the problem I have with that (which Esoth pointed out to me in the first place) is that Alexstrasza is not Nozdormu. That is, she supposedly has no business knowing the future and being a prophet. And Nozdormu seems to be mostly unreachable these days, so it's unlikely that he would have told her something about that.

Another thing I'd like to point out after this deluge of sound-file analyzing is that Blizz seems to be unusually careful with big spoilers during this patch (remember Nethaera's warning), so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those files are actually red herrings.

Bierzkrieg · 11/04/09, 12:25 PM

It's very likely that a being as powerful as Alexstrasza (why doesn't she help at Icecrown...?) was at least aware of Bolvar being destined to play a vital role in the coming times, that she did it on purpose is probably better left undiscovered, I wouldn't think humans would be too happy to have had one of their greatest heroes' fate "aided" by higher powers. Though, judging by Krasus's history, some dragons might have a tendency to do this.