While the reds and specifically Alexstraza don't have the ability to look forward with certainty as the bronze flight does, there's nothing to say that she isn't wise enough to set things into motion on her own and do what she can to put what she feels are the right pieces in the right place at the right time. She may not "know" that it would work but that doesn't mean she can't plan anything.
As the aspect of Life she is probably keenly aware of how the scourge and the Lich King work. She is by some definition the true enemy of the scourge.
She certainly knows Bolvar is a true and just individual, he's been pseudo-leading Stowmwind for many years. When she sees him afflicted by Putraces plague at the Wrathgate she most certainly could have formulated a plan wherein she:
She removes and possibly immunizes him from the most damaging affects of the Lich King and the plague through the "fires of life" which now eternally flow through him and consume corruption. While it isn't in her nature to do this to anyone, Bolvar's dire situation presents the best opportunity to create such a person. In the case of the other Paladin, his situation was not nearly as immediate as Bolvar's and the Na'ru had time to intervene.
She allows Arthas to capture and hold Bolvar in his new state. Arthas thinking that this new Bolvar could be a great new champion if turned and Alextraza hoping to put Bolvar right next to Arthas. She knows that through both his will and his new form, Bolvar is incorruptible by the scourge and Arthas cannot succeed in turning him.
She then sends us/players back to our faction leaders in the hopes of gathering forces to attack the Lich King and aid Bolvar in his journey to topple Arthas and subdue the scourge. And who's to say that Bolvar doesn't already know what he needs to do? It's not inconceivable to think that Alexstraza was able to convey to him the way in which he could defeat the Lich King and then subdue all the scourge.
Arthas wants the same thing the Lich King has traditionally always wanted - kill everything and turn it undead (and thereby control it).
There are two states:
1) He has enough undead to destroy the world, or get a large enough foothold/beachhead to make it inevitable. If this is true, he should already have done so.
2) He does not have enough undead.
Uther says #1 exists. So why isn't Arthas currently killing entire civilizations?
Arthas's actions, not to mention the actions of every other NPC interaction in the game, says #2 exists.
In fact, Uther is explicitly saying: If the Lich King dies, the undead become a worse menace.
If Undead are worse without a Lich King, why are we fighting him? Shouldn't we instead be destroying every single undead we can? Perhaps try to pin him in Icecrown Citadel while we purge the rest of Azeroth.
Additionally, you have another binary:
1) The Lich King personally controls every Undead (barring those who have recovered self-will), or CAN personally control every Undead (at whim, perhaps maximum limit at a given time, whatever).
2) The Lich King does not control them - they operate under some basic set of parameters, like programming.
If #1, then a new Lich King would be able to "recall" all Undead, or have them destroy each other/themselves. Once menace completely removed, seppuku. Or no new Lich King and they all sit around "waiting for orders."
If #2, then the loss of the Lich King would cause no impact to the world at large. They're already operating as if he doesn't exist.
The only combination that would make Uther correct would be if Arthas had full control of every Undead and was actively NOT destroying the world with them. In which case, why would we kill Arthas at all? By any other stretch of logic the "you can't kill the Lich King, it's bad" idea is fallacious.
Now here's an idea that is logical - what if the vision of Uther is Legion (Mal'ganis?) created, rather than truly being Uther. The Legion would obviously twist the truth. The plague is a non-issue to them (undead Demons? That's not how they work). Out of their hands it's a distraction to their enemies. In their hands it's a useful tool.
Uther's spirit appears in WPL at his tomb - it's clearly not ensconced in Frostmourne as proven by gameplay. What the heck would his spirit be doing in Icecrown? What would anchor it? Misdirection and lies make more sense than face value. You'd think Sylvanas would know better - we all know Jaina wouldn't.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
That would make some sense, but the problem I have with that (which Esoth pointed out to me in the first place) is that Alexstrasza is not Nozdormu. That is, she supposedly has no business knowing the future and being a prophet. And Nozdormu seems to be mostly unreachable these days, so it's unlikely that he would have told her something about that.
It very well could be also that she is talking about Arthas. I wouldn't be surprised if there would be some bigger revelation about him in Icecrown. It would be pretty funny if he was actually trying to build us to be his replacement on controlling the Scourge all this time. Would explain why he's been only taunting us and not wiping us out when we've become annoying to his minions.
It's very likely that a being as powerful as Alexstrasza (why doesn't she help at Icecrown...?) was at least aware of Bolvar being destined to play a vital role in the coming times, that she did it on purpose is probably better left undiscovered, I wouldn't think humans would be too happy to have had one of their greatest heroes' fate "aided" by higher powers. Though, judging by Krasus's history, some dragons might have a tendency to do this.
This. She wouldn't need to have any real ability to see the future in order to purposefully mold a hero into someone capable of bearing the task that she knew someone would have to take on. She could have just been purposefully giving Bolvar the tools he'd need to carry out the task, knowing that he already had the strength of will to resist any torture he'd receive at the hands of the Scourge. No matter what, Bolvar was going to be in Icecrown Citadel when we got around to storming the place. So long as she can count on him not turning, then are basically two options: If he's still alive, we could free him and carry him along to take on his final task; if he died to the torture, oh well, her plan failed, on to Plan B.
I don't understand why people think the 'new' Lich King wouldn't just become corrupt and try to extinguish all life like his predecessor. People are talking about Bolvar holding the Scourge at bay, but wouldn't he just take the place of Arthas as another bad guy?
Every bit of lore in existence indicates that the Lich King controls the undead, which is what confuses me about them being more of a menace if left uncontrolled. Without someone to co-ordinate their attacks, they would hardly be a menace; certainly no more than any menace we've already faced.
I understand Blizzard is looking for an ending to WoTLK that is a little more "deep" than storming the castle, killing the boss and passing out loot but I am holding out hope that there is more to it than this, or for me it will amount to a very disappointing cop-out to leave the bad guy hanging around in some capacity.
Something doesn't seem right for Alliance players. Let's see, we have the Airship battle against Saurfang and his troops, then we kill Babyfang...
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll01 - For every Horde soldier that you killed, for every Alliance dog that fell, the Lich King's armies grew. Even now the Val'kyr work to raise your fallen... As scourge.
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll02 - Things are about to get much worse. Come, taste the power that the Lich King has bestowed upon me!
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll03 - Hahahaha! Dwarves.
IC_Dsaurfang_Aggro01 - By the might of the Lich King!
IC_Dsaurfang_Death01 - I... Am... Released.
Then it gets confusing. Muradin's files are titled Muradin_Saurfang, instead of Muradin_Dsaurfang like Babyfang's are. Herein lies the confusion.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang01 - A lone orc? Against the might of the alliance?
IC_Muradin_Saurfang02 - Chaaaaaarge!
IC_Muradin_Saurfang03 - Don't force me hand, orc. We can't let you pass.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang04 - I can't do it ... Get back on your ship and we'll spare your life.
If he's talking to Babyfang, then why's he telling him to get back on the ship? It hasn't even docked yet, apparently. If he's talking to Daddyfang, then why are the following lines numbered after?
IC_Muradin_Saurfang05 - Let's get a move on then! Move out!
IC_Muradin_Saurfang06 - (Long inhale)
IC_Muradin_Saurfang07 - That was Saurfang's boy. The horde commander at the Wrathgate. Such a tragic end.
Also, if it's Daddyfang, then who the hell is this in the following lines?
IC_Muradin_Saurfang08 - What in the... There, in the distance!
IC_Muradin_Saurfang09 - Soldiers fall in! Looks like the Horde are coming to take another shot!
IC_Saurfang_EndAll01 - Behind you lies the body of my only son. Nothing will keep me from him.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA01 - Stand down, Muradin. Let a grieving father pass.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA02 - I... I was not at the wrath gate. But the soldiers who survived told me much of what happened. Your son fought with honor. He died a heroes death, he deserves a heroes burial.
IC_Jaina_Event01 - *crying*
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA03 - Jaina... Why are you crying?
IC_Jaina_Event02 - *crying* It was nothing your majesty ... just ... I'm proud of my king.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA04 - Muradin, secure the deck, and prepare our soldiers for an assault on the upper citadel. I'll send out another regiment from Stormwind.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang10 - Right away, your majesty!
Of course, Saurfang's final two lines can go pretty much anywhere after Varian's DBA02 one.
IC_Saurfang_EndAll02 - I will not forget this kindness. I thank you, highness.
IC_Saurfang_EndAll03 - (Orcish)
---
Therefore, it looks as if the lines aren't necessarily in number order, resulting in something like this:
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll01 - For every Horde soldier that you killed, for every Alliance dog that fell, the Lich King's armies grew. Even now the Val'kyr work to raise your fallen... As scourge.
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll02 - Things are about to get much worse. Come, taste the power that the Lich King has bestowed upon me!
IC_Muradin_Saurfang01 - A lone orc? Against the might of the alliance?
IC_Muradin_Saurfang02 - Chaaaaaarge!
IC_Dsaurfang_IntroAll03 - Hahahaha! Dwarves.
IC_Dsaurfang_Aggro01 - By the might of the Lich King!
IC_Dsaurfang_Death01 - I... Am... Released.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang06 - (Long inhale)
IC_Muradin_Saurfang07 - That was Saurfang's boy. The horde commander at the Wrathgate. Such a tragic end.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang08 - What in the... There, in the distance!
IC_Muradin_Saurfang09 - Soldiers fall in! Looks like the Horde are coming to take another shot!
IC_Saurfang_EndAll01 - Behind you lies the body of my only son. Nothing will keep me from him.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang03 - Don't force me hand, orc. We can't let you pass.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA01 - Stand down, Muradin. Let a grieving father pass.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA02 - I... I was not at the wrath gate. But the soldiers who survived told me much of what happened. Your son fought with honor. He died a heroes death, he deserves a heroes burial.
IC_Jaina_Event01 - *crying*
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA03 - Jaina... Why are you crying?
IC_Jaina_Event02 - *crying* It was nothing your majesty ... just ... I'm proud of my king.
IC_Varian Wrynn_DBA04 - Muradin, secure the deck, and prepare our soldiers for an assault on the upper citadel. I'll send out another regiment from Stormwind.
IC_Muradin_Saurfang10 - Right away, your majesty!
IC_Saurfang_EndAll02 - I will not forget this kindness. I thank you, highness.
IC_Saurfang_EndAll03 - (Orcish)
IC_Muradin_Saurfang05 - Let's get a move on then! Move out!
---
IC_Muradin_Saurfang04 - I can't do it ... Get back on your ship and we'll spare your life.
^ I can't quite find a place to put this line, though. It doesn't seem to fit anywhere, or at least where it might it just seems unnecessary.
-----
Uther says #1 exists. So why isn't Arthas currently killing entire civilizations?
Arthas's actions, not to mention the actions of every other NPC interaction in the game, says #2 exists.
Certain quotes from the Citadel raid point toward a rather more widespread knowledge of the Curse of Flesh than I had previously anticipated. Perhaps there's some Titan/Old God-related reason (Other than the obvious gameplay ones) why Arthas isn't currently decimating everything.
In fact, Uther is explicitly saying: If the Lich King dies, the undead become a worse menace.
Perhaps without *any* force other than instinct guiding them, they'll be more dangerous -- not more dangerous than with the current Lich King guiding them, but certainly more dangerous than if there was *a* Lich King helping to keep them contained somewhat.
Alliance lands.
Deathbringer Saurfang is there as a corpse.
Overlord Saurfang lands alone.
Varian lets Overlord proceed.
Deathbringer wakes up.
Deathbringer kills his father. "Pathetic Old Orc."
Arthas wants the same thing the Lich King has traditionally always wanted - kill everything and turn it undead (and thereby control it).
There are two states:
1) He has enough undead to destroy the world, or get a large enough foothold/beachhead to make it inevitable. If this is true, he should already have done so.
2) He does not have enough undead.
We also know something else, which could give us either 3), or 1) with qualifications. Arthas is a greedy person, as well as someone who believes he is a god. He has a lot of power, and likes to toy with those most powerfully against him. He clearly wants us personally as his minions. Maybe he does have enough to destroy the world, but wants us personally with his forces, or is too greedy to care about destroying the world, if he doesn't first wipe out [current shiny object]. This would make sense, both as a Lore/Plot device, and based on what we know about Arthas.
I also though, like the idea that Uther is a Legion-created thing, it would add an interesting element to the equation. The only problem is, when do they come out and twirl their mustaches and say 'Ha HA!'? Beyond that, do they just sort of hang out on the sidelines for awhile and watch while Deathwing pwns everything? That's the problem with that idea, albeit a very interesting one. (At least I see it as a problem.)
The impression I get is that what's left of Arthas is holding the undead at bay for now, but only temporarily.
Holding at bay from what? Himself? Arthas has a lot of problems - indecision has never been one of them. Reference Strat.
Fighting with Ner'zul and Matthias went on in his head per the book - but he won. It's over. Some one entity is calling the shots. Destroy us or not. He's not an angsty teenager who just wants attention. He's not Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde working at cross-purposes to himself.
If he's "holding the undead at bay", why did he corrupt Drakuru and flood Zul'drak with undead (combated by their god-killers)? Why send the Black Knight (repeatedly) to the Tourney? Why send Anub to the Tourney? Why attack anything? He'd be "holding the undead at bay" so people could walk up and destroy them. You can't even claim self-defense imperatives being stronger than his will - these are offense.
Now that's gotten off his ass after a 3 year "on the 7th day he rested", he's playing a very active role in the corruption and conquest of Azeroth.
Bottom line - why would he WANT to hold the undead at bay? No character trait of Arthas shows he'd have any desire or reason to do so.
@ VerziehenOne - no mustache twirling, please! Just have them open a portal and grab Bolvar once he puts on the crown. "OMG, Bolvar took one for the team. OMG squared, WTF did they just do with Bolvar the Lich King?"
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
That would make some sense, but the problem I have with that (which Esoth pointed out to me in the first place) is that Alexstrasza is not Nozdormu. That is, she supposedly has no business knowing the future and being a prophet. And Nozdormu seems to be mostly unreachable these days, so it's unlikely that he would have told her something about that.
Another thing I'd like to point out after this deluge of sound-file analyzing is that Blizz seems to be unusually careful with big spoilers during this patch (remember Nethaera's warning), so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those files are actually red herrings.
I'm actually thinking it's not so much a prophecy as it is a promise, as she created Bolvar's current state and knew what it was capable of doing.
I think they have to be careful with red herrings because they aren't always seen as such. A red herring in the sound files that does not appear in game on actual release is as likely to be interpreted as Blizz running out of time and feeding us some alternative story line not intended to be canon.
I can definitely see the Legion misdirection angle.
"Awesome, we totally tricked them into giving us back the toy they stole from the kid who stole it from us. Suck on that, Ner'Zhul!"
They don't have to know about what Deathwing's up to, though. It could just be a case of SUDDENLY, WORLD BREAKER.
Edit: Which would put them in a position of working out how best to profit from the chaos and disaster after the fact, rather than planning it in the first place.
It's possible Uther isn't talking about either the Alliance or the Horde, but of the Nerubians, Tuskarr, Vrykhul, Protodragons, Shoveltusk, etc etc. As in, the Lich King keep the Scourge minions at bay from slaughtering what remains of life in Northrend.
Besides, isn't it stated somewhere the Lich King isn't powerful enough to force his will beyond Northrend and the upper reaches of Lordaeron? Which is what allowed Sylvanas to break free in the first place?
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Every bit of lore in existence indicates that the Lich King controls the undead, which is what confuses me about them being more of a menace if left uncontrolled. Without someone to co-ordinate their attacks, they would hardly be a menace; certainly no more than any menace we've already faced.
I understand Blizzard is looking for an ending to WoTLK that is a little more "deep" than storming the castle, killing the boss and passing out loot but I am holding out hope that there is more to it than this, or for me it will amount to a very disappointing cop-out to leave the bad guy hanging around in some capacity.
I have to agree. Though I've been working my head around ways to counter this reasoning, it sems highly unlikely that this won't turn out to be an almost completely unfounded way to have a can of "Possible Future Villain" in the lore shelf. Even the fact that someone new has to take the burden and at the same time Arthas' remnants may be the solution is confusing, to say the least. Especially when Uther says nothing can be done for Arthas but destroy him. So, naturally, what's left of Arthas - the thing that might be key to controlling what remains of the Scourge - is getting torched...
I'm reposting this from the Something Awful forums because I thought it made sense in regards to needing a new Lich King after Arthas
Originally Posted by Grinning Goblin
Well, my take on it is that The whole reason for Arthas holding back the Scourge is that Arthas has a much more sophisticated method of turning the world undead that doesn't result in complete devastation of the world. He is doing this because he knows that the Burning Legion is out to get him. If he just went apeshit all over the world, he would be defending himself in a ruined world, as opposed to acquiring fortifications, weapons, etc. Although, with the Lich King dead, I really doubt that the Northrend Undead would really threaten the other parts of the world. I'd imagine that the several factions of Vrykul, Nerubians, Cult of the Damned, Death Knights, Trolls, and Blood Princes would be locked in a never ending civil war that might slowly expand to determine who will be the new defacto leader of the Scourge. Unlike your generic fantasy undead, there is actually a structure to the scourge that is beyond "One main General and everyone else is a grunt".
In WC3, we learn that Frostmourne steals souls and Uther dies to Arthas. In TBC, we see Uther's spirit at his tomb for the new Draenei/BE WPL quests. Now with the sound files, Uther's spirit is placed in Frostmourne, for the Halls of Reflection instance. Was somebody asleep at the wheel, or do souls stolen by Frostmourne now have the ability to wander beyond the sword itself?
Yeesh.
[19:36:45.096] Spleen gains 15 energy from Spleen's Tricks of the Trade
[19:36:45.408] Osseric gains Tricks of the Trade from Spleen
I don't understand why people think the 'new' Lich King wouldn't just become corrupt and try to extinguish all life like his predecessor. People are talking about Bolvar holding the Scourge at bay, but wouldn't he just take the place of Arthas as another bad guy?
There's no guarantee that he wouldn't, but Bolvar is clearly a much better person than Arthas was. Arthas started walking down the wrong path of his own volition before he picked up Frostmourne. Arthas also didn't know what he was getting himself into before it was too late. Bolvar would be knowingly picking up the mantle, armed with not only a superior will of his own, but also whatever other strengths were imbued in him by his immolation. I don't know that we could expect him to hold back the influences forever, but it does seem safe to say that he'd be better than the status quo, for at least long enough for Blizzard to release 2-3 more expansions--er, at least long enough for us heroes to take on the Legion ourselves.
Simply put, a Scourge without some leadership or logical vision just goes about rampaging across Azeroth without any sort of purpose. It wouldn't just be all the ghouls being unleashed a la Army of the Dead, though. You'd have the Cult of the Damned, the San'layn, the Frostbrood, etc., all bereft of their leader, and they split off and go around trying to further their own myopic agendas without regard to the bigger picture, causing mass devastation.
Devastation with a purpose > devastation without a purpose, all things being equal. Who wouldn't rather the Scourge be easily eliminated when Arthas is killed? After spending a lot of time in the depths of Frostmourne, Uther has probably gained some keen (if horrific) insight into how the Scourge works as an Intellect. He knows what would probably happen if we just cut off Arthas' head and left Frostmourne there to rot, i.e., nothing good in the long-run. His statements to Jaina are rather calculated: better that someone noble and fundamentally uncorrupted to hold and bind the Scourge together so it can disintegrate or be dismantled without causing great harm to all Azeroth.
Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.
Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.
So the field seems to have narrowed some for possible replacements.
Varok Saurfang - Garrosh taking over barring some massive change of heart needs to be done outside of Saurfangs purvey. Saurfang is deeply suspicious of Garrosh. We know that he doesn't die in his fight against Draenosh, so his absense from Cataclysm is yet a mystery.
Bolvar Fordragon - Arthas is holding him and trying to turn him. Bolvar is alight with living dragonflame and infused with the holy light so is not easily turned. Could he return to the alliance as the lavaman? seems very unlikely.
Muradin Bronzebeard - Doesn't seem to have a role to return to after getting his revenge on Arthas. Perhaps back to stormhold.
These eem to be the top three candidates to me. Darion is another good one, but to me, is ruled out by his presence in acheron for DKs. Tirion is another nice choice, but would require a lot of world phasing to maintain continuity. Jaina, Sylvanus, and Thrall are all seen in the new expansion plotlines. Varian and Garrosh are the primary antagonists, I don't see them picking up the crown.
It is hard to say however given that we don't know exactly how much Blizzard is willing to change to accommodate their lore decision here. If they're willing to totally redesign and change quest/plotlines and do a lot of phasing... anything is possible really.
These eem to be the top three candidates to me. Darion is another good one, but to me, is ruled out by his presence in acheron for DKs. Tirion is another nice choice, but would require a lot of world phasing to maintain continuity. Jaina, Sylvanus, and Thrall are all seen in the new expansion plotlines.
Jaina isn't mentioned at all in Cataclysm just like Saurfang.
Originally Posted by Exemplar
Bottom line - why would he WANT to hold the undead at bay? No character trait of Arthas shows he'd have any desire or reason to do so.
The trait we have most seen is the corrupt Arthas but I think it's quite clear he wasn't able to destroy his humanity as much as the corruption thought it did after what Uther said. It really helps explain a lot of the strange things of always letting the heroes go after they foiled him. Maybe it wasn't so much him 'testing' us as much as it was the last good part of him trying his best to hold it back so that he can ensure he gets 'redeemed'.
Originally Posted by Leguaran
Anyone else having any issues loading up Lavaman model this last PTR push? it flat out refuses to load up for me. I wanted to check for new animations or anything of the sort, but, the model just doesn't load.
Devastation with a purpose > devastation without a purpose, all things being equal.
Quite the opposite. Defense in sequence against CotD, San'layn, Frostbrood, etc > Defense against simultaneous assault.
Would you rather face waves of a dozen men running down the street at you every few minutes, or 100,000 men lining every street of your city, shoulder to shoulder, all closing in?
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Take late BC - the teaser Scourge offensive against main cities. Lich King gone would be like that. A couple things attacking the docks in waves. With Arthas it would be a mass of things attacking the docks, more at the gates, some from the sewers, some jumping off cliffs to get inside. Oh, and not just Stormwind/Ogrimmar, but all your cities, outposts, tents, etc. Simultaneously.
Another analogy - would you rather fight every boss in an instance sequentially (one by one), as you move to their rooms or simultaneously, as they follow instructions and get together as soon as they hear the first engage? I remember a Heroic Shattered Halls I did in early BC... we skipped the Ogre boss for time. Imagine our reaction when he started running down the hall when we engaged Bladefist. Yeah, it wasn't pretty.
Add in the fact that with no Lich King the factions would expend a good portion of their "manpower" feuding with each other. Every loss they would inflict on each other would be one less threat to civilization.
There's simply no way to believe that loss of the Lich King would be worse than an antagonistic Lich King. Obviously a Lich King pointedly destroying his own armies would be best case scenario - but again that would be removing all the random undead from the classic zones. West/East Plaguelands sort of lose their meaning if the Plague leaves them.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Quite the opposite. Defense in sequence against CotD, San'layn, Frostbrood, etc > Defense against simultaneous assault.
Would you rather face waves of a dozen men running down the street at you every few minutes, or 100,000 men lining every street of your city, shoulder to shoulder, all closing in?
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Take late BC - the teaser Scourge offensive against main cities. Lich King gone would be like that. A couple things attacking the docks in waves. With Arthas it would be a mass of things attacking the docks, more at the gates, some from the sewers, some jumping off cliffs to get inside. Oh, and not just Stormwind/Ogrimmar, but all your cities, outposts, tents, etc. Simultaneously.
Another analogy - would you rather fight every boss in an instance sequentially (one by one), as you move to their rooms or simultaneously, as they follow instructions and get together as soon as they hear the first engage? I remember a Heroic Shattered Halls I did in early BC... we skipped the Ogre boss for time. Imagine our reaction when he started running down the hall when we engaged Bladefist. Yeah, it wasn't pretty.
Add in the fact that with no Lich King the factions would expend a good portion of their "manpower" feuding with each other. Every loss they would inflict on each other would be one less threat to civilization.
There's simply no way to believe that loss of the Lich King would be worse than an antagonistic Lich King. Obviously a Lich King pointedly destroying his own armies would be best case scenario - but again that would be removing all the random undead from the classic zones. West/East Plaguelands sort of lose their meaning if the Plague leaves them.
You are confusing lore with gameplay reasons and wanting to make up your own ideas of how the leftover Scourge would attack things. In lore there are MILLIONS of undead left and they will go on mindless rampages controlled by Necromancers and other higher ups and would make dedicated assaults on areas. There will be some in-fighting but there will always be a second or third in command that can help control the forces which will prevent a lot of that. The other big concern is probably someone less than good taking up the power of the Lich King and then unleashing a full assault on everything since I doubt that the armor can be easily destroyed. The West/East plaguelands are zones getting altering in Cataclysm so I think it's pretty safe to say they won't be as plagued any longer.
Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the lich king being removed would result in rampaging undead and not more Foresaken. I just don't see them as any worse threat than past threats (qiraji, etc). As a matter of fact, without any central leadership or cingularity to drive them, how would they even co-ordinate be a threat beyond Northrend? What would they do? Build ships? Form a complex invasion plan for the rest of Azeroth? Even if you factor in scourge that can fly or move around by magical means, I think the lack of cohesion would just mean we have a bunch of pissed off undead milling about up north and in various pockets around Azeroth.
That depends on details, yes, and hopefully some of those details will be provided to us.
An example that would work for me: as long as there's a lich king, he draws some power from all of the undead, and controls how that power is used to create additional undead. But in the absence of a lich king, some of that power that he has drawn is returned to all the undead in the world, and the creation of undead becomes a less controlled and less predictable process. One aspect of this is that each undead can create more undead. Since some undead are mindless, this means more undead are being created without any regard to how suitable/useful the result will be, and we see considerably more undead animals -- who can then themselves create more undead. And we end up with a true global "zombie apocalypse" scenario.
(And then maybe some resource that the undead themselves need in order to continue their existence ends up getting overconsumed, or the resulting swarm of disorganized undeath isn't robust against outside attacks (old gods, burning legion), and as a result even this swarm of disorganized undead is eventually exterminated, and Azeroth becomes a cold, dead rock. Game over.)
Originally Posted by Exemplar
Bottom line - why would he WANT to hold the undead at bay? No character trait of Arthas shows he'd have any desire or reason to do so.
An explanation that I have always found compelling is, most undead are less flexible/changeable in undeath than they were in life. An entity made undead as a toddler is never going to reach the same level of power (and therefore utility to the lich king) as, say, Jaina or Saurfang would if turned. So in terms of maintaining some minimum level of raw power/utility (which he does need to maintain, as there are threats to him that come from outside Azeroth, and Nerzhul's memories make him very aware of that), it is in his best interest to cultivate crops of the living that grow to extremely high power levels before being turned.
Well keep in mind Arthas can't purely attack. He has to keep up some level of defense.
If there was no Lich King, the undead would go berserk and all-out offensive, every single undead in the world would be knocking at stormwind's door.
It's like the old saying "No one is more dangerous than someone who has nothing to lose." That's because all they care about is single mindedly accomplishing one thing. That's what the scourge would be like without a Lich King.
11/04/09, 1:04 PM
