Concerning Saurfang in Cataclysm: We know he'll be heading for Nagrand to bury his son. Maybe he just stays there, sitting atop some floating plane, resting in grief? He seems pretty broken after all.

Horde should have a quest/event to witness this.

I'm boggled as to why they would remove the lavaman model. I was hoping to check for custom fit animations, maybe that's why it's gone.

With Varian showing a bit of compassion for his enemy in ICC, I don't think it's too absurd to expect Garrosh to have a small redeeming moment soon as well.

Blizzard doesn't want people to hate their faction leaders. They saw that a lot of people really disliked Varian and so they did something about it. It doesn't necessarily mean he hates orcs any less, it just means that even he understands the feelings of a father and what it's like to lose someone important (how could he live with himself if he ordered a grieving father to be cut down in front of his son's body?).

Ideally, it's Garrosh's turn now. He doesn't have to become less reckless or hate the Alliance any less, but I expect some interaction with other major lore characters soon will reveal a little bit of a better orc inside. It's possible that Bolvar's impending sacrifice might make Garrosh think twice about the worth of humans.

I also expect, as I suggested previously, that Varok somehow ends up as a sort of mentor to Garrosh. He already respects him more than he does Thrall, anyway.

Well if they were both utterly reasonable then their would be no grounds for all out war. Someone has to be bullheaded enough to start this.

Definitely. And based on the sound files it will be Garrosh. Maybe Blizz is ok with people hating Garrosh because of the way they intend to play him out in Cat. Until something comes around that proves otherwise, I think it's a safe bet to say Garrosh triggers war.

I never suggested that either characters become reasonable, I suggested they become more likable. Do you think Varian likes orcs now just because he was willing to let Varok recover his son's corpse and said a few words for him?

Faction leaders that no one likes leads to bad game play dynamics. Lack of motivation to defend your faction leader when he's under attack is one example (Staghelm).

I think there is this assumption that right after Arthas dies, the Alliance and the Horde go to war. I am betting that the escalation of war will be something that we see through out the patch cycle of Cataclysm. I even vaguely recall some discussion at Blizzcon to that effect, stating that destruction of natural resources will push both factions closer to conflict. The war will be a war of necessity and survival, and that sort of motivation doesn't require either Varian or Garrosh to be 'more of a dick'and start the war. The needs of each population will simply demand military intervention, and no amount of diplomacy is going to convince either side to let thier people starve.

True, but it's also telling when somebody spams in trade channel that Staghelm is under attack and some people respond and ask if they can help the Horde instead. Blizzard needs to humanize some of the new faction leaders somewhat, and Varian is a good place to start.

War also doesn't have to be engaged for aggressive reasons. Here's a for instance based vaguely around what we think we know of Cataclysm:
Varian's known to have issues with Orcs. Some Defias dressed like SI:7 (sowing strife under the orders of the new Lich King, VanCleef) see an opportunity to kidnap Thrall and do so. They sail him off, leaving some evidence or being flat out seen but not stopped. Maybe go stab Cairne twenty-three times.
Garrosh declares war for legitimate reason - Thrall abducted by Alliance, direct provocation. Alliance "attacked first."
Varian goes "WTF, we didn't order it, it's a mistake," hiding his next dose of steroids behind his back.
Garrosh goes "Like I'd trust a human." Burn some Alliance strongpoint, like Astranaar.
Varian goes "Whatever" (in a Valley Girl voice and makes the silly hand gesture) and is somewhat forced to declare war on the Horde as they "attacked first."
Jaina teleports to Orgrimaar and tries to convince Garrosh. Yeah, that works. She leaves, broken-hearted and sobs into her "I <3 Arthas" pillow, hand curled protectively over her bare midriff, thinking of Thrall's lovechild growing.

Both sides feel the other side started it. Both sides are not easily reconciled. Neither side's leader is a direct asshat. Thrall showing up later would be unlikely to be able to bring a ceasefire, especially if both sides had gained/lost ground. Neither side would want to give up what they gained, but both would demand back what was lost.

Blizzard seems to be getting better with our roid-rage asshat leaders. I think we'll get a war that's not just Garrosh going postal.

That seems like the most reasonable explanation for the war.

Yeah there's basically no evidence for this whole theory that a full-fledged war somehow erupts during the sequence of events in Icecrown Citadel. Seriously people.

I love the direction Blizzard is moving in terms of portraying ICC as a vital, active zone of conflict rather than a static gallery of loot targets. The addition of the bands led by NPCs we've met before - the Captains from Zul'Drak or Crok Scourgebane (this would incidentally be a perfect way to incorporate Trag Highmountain, too) - really makes the zone feel (appropriately) as the culmination of an entire expansion's worth of effort, as you take your stand next to other heroes you rescued or worked with. From a gameplay standpoint, it's a win also - you get dynamic, fun trash, minibosses like Sister Svalna, and I think it is not so farfetched to have fun achievements associated with saving/defeating your brothers in arms.

I realize that ICC is special, not just as the focal point of the entire expansion, but as the closing of a story arc that started in Warcraft III over seven years ago, and is thus worthy of some extra spectacle; but one hopes they'll continue this for future instances. It's a great way to squeeze extra atmosphere and lore-anchoring into an instance without resorting to in-instance quests (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Is there any way that Blizzard can make one of "us" the new Lich King? Future lore could easily be that one of the heroes accompanying the Ashen Verdict sacrificed himself to contain the Lich King ala Diablo 1.

How could it work in game-play? One of the 25 raiders would loot the helm, get a quest/reward just like from any other final boss. There could be a cutscene viewable by the looter or the entire raid showing the player looting the helm/armor, and then one of the lore characters split the player into two copies, one part free to leave and the other forced to stay behind as the Lich King.

It would certainly be a literal interpretation of the "you'll leave a piece of yourself in Northrend" line from Blizzconn.

I don't think anyone thinks that. He most definitely would eventually become corrupt, spawning another story line/raid/expansion. For now though he would have the will power to keep them at bay for say...as long as it takes for people not to be bored of the Scourge/undead mobs again?

I don't see why Varian can't be behind Thrall's kidnapping. Couldn't it just be SI:7 working on his order capturing Thrall? He hates the orcs and Thrall, and if he had intel that Thrall would be out in the open somewhere vulnerable, I'm sure he would act on it. He would realise without Thrall the Horde would become weaker than the alliance and I don't think he would hesitate to act on it given how many human lives it would save.

I'm at work at the moment, so can't check quest text, but isn't there a bit of quest flavour text when you first meet Alexstraza where she says she's "known you" since before you were born - implying that she can "read" the lives and deaths of those who are "alive" (such is her remit). Would this imply that she could tell 'when' he might don the crown - "ending" his life by becoming undead through its corruption?

Well, if so, Blizzard needs to be very careful with these changes in character. Sure, Saurfang retrieving his son's corpse is a different situation from the usual Horde-Alliance bickering but, arguably, one (specially a father like Wrynn) does not go through this without even a minor change of heart. Here's an orc, who Varian thinks are all alike and beastial - Thrall included - who mourns his son just like any (and more than many) human father. His speech leads me to think he sees this, that at that moment, Saurfang is a father instead of a 2mt-tall, muscle-bound, cleave-happy orc. So I don't think it would be natural for Varian to maintain his current absolute distrust of orcs - or the Horde, in general. We don't know if Saurfang is an exception, orcs are a somewhat divided race when it comes to hostility (of the fighting kind) towards the Alliance.

I maintain that something "special" has to happen for the war in Cataclysm to take place. Indeed, it might be Azeroth's diminuishing resources, but that doesn't sporadically trigger a war. I imagine Garrosh might go straight to the military option without trying to negotiate. Thrall's kidnapping, too, makes a good motive, but I'm still trying to figure out why would the SI:7 do such a stupid thing, from a diplomatic point of view. I'd understand an attempt to take out Garrosh, but even though Varian and and the SI:7 might see Thrall as "just another orc" like Doomhammer, I'm sure they know he has significant differences, at least.

@Milney: Like it was referred, such detailed knowledge enters the realm of Nozdormu, the time Aspect. More likely, Alexstrasza has a notion of every being's role to play during their lives, but in terms of it being significant or not (probably if that being's going to be good or evil, as well). Of course, this is speculation, but Alexstrasza isn't so dominant among Aspects as to have her scope of powers overlap those of the other Aspects'.

As I recall, you release Thrall from a cage and he then empowers you with lighting, allowing you to fly while firing lighting bolts at the human ships. So I assume Thrall is somewhat pissed.

True, though, motivations for the SI:7 doing that are unclear. Perhaps they "rescued" Thrall from the water after destroying the Horde ship and thought him too dangerous to keep around unchained. So, they stuck the most powerful shaman in the world inside an oh-so-safe cage. Yes, that ought to do it. Not that they had many options, though, and the truth is goblins have to release the Warchief (or ex-Warchief, not sure at that time).

Actually, the whole behaviour of the SI:7 in the goblin starting zone is somewhat strange. Fighting the goblins, incarcerating Thrall...

All speculation, though...Blizzard has yet to throw more bones on this.

I wasn't trying to imply that she'd be intruding in Nozdormu's realm, was just implying that as per the flavour text she gives us about "knowing" each and every living thing even before its birth it could be reasonable to expect her to be aware of it's alloted "time of death" as it were.

Though it does seem strange that she could have "forseen" or even just made plans for trying to fend off the corruption of the Plague, when later (assuming the linear timeline of HF/BT -> DB -> GH/ZD -> IC) she tries - unsuccesfully - to redeem a fallen Paladin hero in icecrown to no avail. It does beg the question why she'd try, or indeed risk it as a gambit, at the Wrathgate when she'd not previously tried to purge the plague (as the Icecrown quest suggests).

Yeah, it's plausible that Alexstrasza knew that Bolvars ultimate fate was to wear the Lich Kings Crown. Bolvar might have had great strength and iron-will, but he was still mortal and in a mortal's body. We saw the Icecrown Naaru chain demonstrate how said body can succumb to the plague of undeath, even for people of great stature. From Alexstrasza's perspective she had two choices:

- Watch a mortal ultimately be corrupted by his eventual fate (We can liken The Helm of Domination to The One Ring, it will corrupt even the pure in time)
- Cleanse/immunise Bovlar in fire (aka Lavaman). This would leave the only way for The Lich King to corrupt him to be a battle of wills.

You could conclude Alexstrasza chose the lesser of two evils. The risk she took was putting great faith in Bolvar, assuming he is powerful enough to withstand The Lich King mentally.

I know you didn't mean an intrusion of realms, and I used the world "realm" as in scope of powers, not literally being able to travel the time flow like Nozdormu does.

As to her difference of treatments between Bolvar and the other paladin, one has to understand a being who is capable of controlling all life has a different notion of fate. Though Alexstrasza is said to love every living being, etc., she is "forced" to see the bigger picture. If she thought the paladin at Icecrown would play a greater role in the events to come, I'm sure she would have applied the same treatment she did (her dragons did) to Bolvar. That not being the case, she thought better for the dying paladin to die the good death.

There's also another detail: her cure of the plague, Forsaken or Scourge, cannot come without a very high cost to the infected - permanently scarring his flesh. She says so in the dying paladin quest. So it's not a solution red dragons employ without considering the consequences.

Sorry, I was using it in the same vein. What I was trying to do was differentiate what I meant in my original post. That being that whilst Alexstraza seems to be able to see the "timeline" of every beings existence, and feel some of thier pain, she might not be able to see the specifics of the situation.

I was trying to imply that though she might not be able to see exactly what was going on at that point in time, she might have "felt" his extreme pain further down his lifeline and it was a plan to save/aid him in the future.

Good point about the consequences and choosing to let the Paladin "die", I had forgotten about that aspect of the quest text.

Whilst discussing the aspects, has there been anything leaked about Nozdormu in Cataclysm? Apart from the 5man instances they've had not alot has really been shed on the Bronze dragonflight, whilst in the meantime we've *killed* the Blue Aspect, befriended the Red Aspect, will find out more of the Nightmare/Green Aspect in ICC and of course will be under siege from the Black Aspect in Cataclysm. I'm all for some 'hand-wavium' to buy time, but after two expansions of "Oh somethings happened to the master, we just don't know what" it's wearing kind of thin.

I think people are looking at the wrong culprits behind this whole kidnapping business. Let's examine the facts;

1) Thrall is the most powerful Shaman alive (from what we've been told).

2) A Shaman's field of expertise is the earth and the elements.

3) What particular big villain in Warcraft lore has to do with the following things; The Elements, Earth, working behind the scenes to spark war between the Alliance and Horde.

4) Isn't, incidentally, that very same villain the "endboss" of the next expansion?

So, my suggestion (of which I've seen hints of in this thread before, but not outright said): The Black Dragonflight has infiltrated SI:7, and uses it to get Thrall kidnapped. Deathwing wants Thrall out of the way, as he percieves him as a threat, and he wants the Alliance and Horde at war so he can put his plans into motion without interference. The SI:7 operatives think they are working for Varian, when they're in fact being manipulated. Garrosh, being the way he is (even if he's given redeeming qualities, he's still highly honourbound) declares war on the Alliance as he has evidence they are behind the kidnapping of Thrall. Deathwing laughs his evil villain laugh as we play right in his hands. Then along comes the Goblins, a rogue factor in Deathwings plans, a "catalyst" if you will. They free Thrall, perhaps in the middle of the Cataclysm happening, and he sets off investigating what is causing the elements to rebell and rip apart the world, leaving the Horde temporarily in Garrosh's (redeemed?) hands, perhaps taking Cairne with him (se picture of them rescuing children from ruined buildings)?