Nathanyel

Clearly, they used a Faraday cage.

 

Mr. Crow

I was given the impression at BlizzCon that Deathwing is not as concerned with the mortal races and what they choose to do as one might think. After the close personal relationship we had with Arthas in Wrath, that would certainly change the pace,

However, saying that Maestro Deathwing (or Cho'Gall and the Twilight's Hammer Singers) is behind Thrall's kidnapping and thus the war is a great way to make that combat personal for anyone who's not interested enough in saving the world. And since Blizzard liked the touchy-feely sense we got of Arthas throughout Wrath, and are cutting out other conflicts that would prove to be distractions (Cataclysm IS "The Neltharion Show", not "Arthas 2: Electric Boogaloo featuring Malygos and the Nexus Band") I think this is probably the best explanation to begin that personal relationship for the Horde.

 

Bierzkrieg

The Black Dragonflight infiltration has been brought up a number of times, here. Mostly, though, on Garrosh, as it was before, I think, Blizzard's statement on a "different" (not the exact words) Garrosh taking the Horde's reins. Of course, Blizzard never hinted at dragon interference in Garrosh's supposed change of mind. But lunatics like me, who try to find a reasoning for most theories that pop up for the sake of discussion, thought if said change couldn't mean indeed that a literally different Hellscream would sit at the throne. It's still a bit far fetched, obviously. Not only because this has been tried twice before, with the Prestor family, but also because developing a character (even one that's generally hated, like Garrosh) and then just going "It's not him, it's a dragon" means throwing away a whole storyline of character development for the sake of what seems too easy and all-purpose a solution.

For those who consider this possibility, it's obviously possible that the draconic impersonation could have spread to the SI:7 in order to have both sides trigger a war. And, while indeed a bit on the implausible side, the theory does have its merits. For once, the same thing that puts it down (having been tried before) is also a strength: humans have now thwarted two attempts of dominance from the inside by dragons. Surely now they think Deathwing will never try it again and if he does, they'll find it and end it. They've done it before, so it wouldn't be easy to fool them thrice. Overconfidence...hardly a good character trait, specially when applied to masses (a whole society). And the orcs have never been infiltrated by dragons, so it's a whole new world for them. And Garrosh's behaviour does bear some resemblance to Prestor's in a way:

Prestor had an unnatural care with his appearance and higyene. Garrosh has an unnatural intolerance - no matter what people say, Wrynn at least has reasons to resent the orcs. He's an ass, but with a reason. A very good one. Garrosh never met humans, and his emulation of his father seems, at times, a bit artificial.

Prestor rallied people around him. Not only was he an expert at saying the right things at each occasion, most of the time, he was well-liked by everyone. He praised people, trying to bring their pride up so that it influenced their decisions. Of course, he also used mind control. While only later explicitly, I'm pretty sure he did so from the start, more subtly.

Garrosh's followers - his army - does at times seem fanatical. We know all orcs revel in glory, which Garrosh has brought through military victory. But indeed lines like "His words is life and his word is death" by Overlord Agmar do raise doubts. This referring to an orc who until now had done nothing for the Horde and who went from lethargic to martial-minded in the extreme.

Please, bear in mind I'm deliberately trying to explore a theory I do not think is the most likely to come true. Nor is it the one I'd prefer. But it has been used and it is possible from the dragons' powers and ways point of view. So, while berating me is perfectly fine, I am admitting to be speculating.

PS: If it's of any use, Kollar supports at least part of this theory, and his last one (Bolvar taking the Lich King's helm) seems to be correct. Just kidding, Kollar, I'm not trying to drag you to whatever discussion comes next.

 

Enova

To be honest, Garrosh might not even need to be replaced in order for him to be controlled.

I.e. someone close to him is mind controlling him, feeding him false information, or at least giving him really bad advice (whatever - it could be a dragon replacing an old friend, or a Twilight Hammer agent infiltrated for many years, or just someone trustworthy who recently became corrupted)

Guilty as charged ^

 

Bierzkrieg

Though not an enthusiast of the Dragon-impersonation theory, I have to say that, at times, Garrosh's actions and opinions seem really ass-pulled. His father never told him about humans, he'd never seen them until coming into Azeroth. Once there, what he had was peace. Tenuous, but peace nonetheless. He owes Thrall the world for redeeming his father in his own eyes. He has a truly exemplar figure like Saurfang at his side and mentoring him. And, in general, right from the start, he's been in contact with the better side of the Horde, Thrall's. As far as we know, he hasn't really read on his father's history. Or the Horde's.

And still he emulates his father to a stupidly extreme point. He's not even a teenager, he's older than Thrall...maybe Blizzard just deliberately created an extreme character for shock value, but Varian, for example, is a much easier character to understand. He has motives and at times has some reasonable attitudes. Of course, orcs have a much shorter fuse than humans, hence Garrosh being more bloodthirsty. Still...I do wonder how will the young Hellscream change his character without once again looking awkward and abrupt.

Varian's gesture of goodwill, for example, will have little effect on Garrosh, the way I see it. He hasn't been much prone to making an effort to understand situations he's in, how will he be influenced by one in which he wasn't present and towards which he can hardly empathize - meaning he has no kids?

 

Kollar

To be fair, I'm with Enova on this one. If (and that's a big if) Garrosh is being controlled by anyone, I believe it's more realistic that someone is feeding him bad info, or stroking his gigantic ego. Blizzard stated that Garrosh would be more likeable. I don't see how that is possible if he turns out to be a dragon (or someone really close to him). Also, it seems as if the black dragonflight have quite an easy time infiltrating the humans, if you consider the two times they've already semi-succesfully done so.

With them stating they want people to like their faction leaders, it seems unlikely that anyone of the actual leaders turns out to be a dragon. Rather some general, or as I previously posted, the SI:7 leader. Given what we know, with SI:7 operatives being responsible for Thrall's abduction, it seems the most logical choice to me. It's also a very good catalyst for the war.

 

Bierzkrieg

I forgot to say that this theory, at least the way I see it, doesn't mean Garrosh IS a dragon, but that a dragon has taken his place. Thus, Garrosh could be locked somewhere. True, the safest thing would be to kill him...but then it wouldn't be the first time villains choose Road Stupid to follow their plans through.

Also, how are supposed to like Garrosh more if the bastard just closes Orgrimmar's innermost area (or his throne room, or whatever) to 4 of the Horde's 6 races? At times I think Blizzard is just tossing decoys for us to theory-target.

Unless they mean we'll be forced to like Garrosh more because we'll be at war with the Alliance. Everyone knows most leaders get good rep during difficult times. Plus, Garrosh seems to have success in the battlefield. God knows how, with his Sweep tactic.

 

Blacksen

Hmmmm, next Lich King = Lich queen maybe?

Jaina would get "approval" (if it were needed) from both Horde and Alliance combatants. She's very likely to be a part of the Arthas encounter just because of her previous connection to him. She's somewhat regarded as a "pure" person who could probably last a while with the power.

That would be a very interesting outcome. We do have to wonder where Thrall and Jaina are going in Cataclysm. What if Jaina's just staying behind in Icecrown?

 

SubtleAmbition

I agree that the dragon impersonation thing has been a bit overdone, but it's how they work. They're evil, insidious, extremely intelligent and charismatic when they want to be. I think, personally, it would be a master stroke to have the current garrosh truly be an imposter, and have it not be found out until, say, Grim Batol/newblackrockinstance. In which you locate the true Garrosh and free him from his bindings, escort the true son of Grom first to a boss in the instance to exact some well deserved revenge then to Orgrimmar to oust the dragon pretending he is a Hellscream similar to the Marshal Windsor event the alliance had (and cherished) back in the day that endeared Bolvar to so many alliance players.

 

Enova

Is it really a lock down, or is he just replacing the frailer troll guards with orcs and taurens with a suitably low 'brain-cell-to-biceps-volume' ratio? Obviously, just for gameplay reasons, Blizz wouldn't randomly restrict 2/3 of the Horde's players from the core of their capital, so it all points towards the latter, but the flavor texts might claim otherwise.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Bierzkrieg

I believe it's confirmed it doesn't concern the players. But then, in "real Azeroth life", you wouldn't be allowed to enter Garrosh's throne room without a very good reason even if you were an orc.

Giving the Horde an Onyxia-like event would be...interesting. It also would be an incredibly effective way of having an Alliance-uproar. I still find it interesting, though.

 

Kirion

I wonder what will happen in Cataclysm to Dark Horde (aka blackrock and dragonmaw clans). They are working for Deathwing, so could it be that Garrosh is brainwashed/lured into following "the old ways". Also, what will happen with Burning Blade warlocks after Thrall will be gone? Their leader still resides in Orgimar.

in short, even if Garrosh, or some of his advisors, is not a dragon in disguise, there are still plenty of people who can influence him in a bad way.

42.

 

Aditu

Well if its not in ICC then we're either going to get a "While you guys were away..." explanation in Cataclysm or there's going to be another mini content patch.

 

Bisar213

Considering that there will probably be 6-8 months between the launch of ICC and the launch of Cataclysm (assuming it comes out in October ala WOTLK), I would hope there is some kind of content patch to transition everyone back to the Old World.

On a different note: what about the Forsaken? With Arthas dead/defeated, they no longer have a major target for revenge. If the expected attack on Gilneas is Sylvannas and Co. expanding their territory in Lordaraen, surely that could serve as a catalyst for the Alliance declaring full fledged war on the Horde. This would make a lot of sense as well, if the basis of the coming war is resource scarcity.

 

Exemplar

I should hope everyone present would veto this action immediately. Ner'zul was a shaman. When corporeal he had shamanistic powers atop his Lich King powers. Arthas was a paladin - thankfully he lost his Light granted abilities (or so we think?) when he became Lich King.

Just imagine a Lich Queen who not only controls undead, but has the forces of Fire, Ice, and Arcane magic at her fingertips? Someone powerful enough to iceblock a group of combatants and selectively teleport only some of them simultaneously. When, not if, the power overwhelms her, you've got a more dangerous leader of the Scourge than was destroyed.

It's like giving political power to a millionaire who can buy anything he wants. Now he can work the system AND use money. Oh, wait... we do that on a regular basis.

Fine, great, let's have Jaina become Lich Queen. Then make her Guardian of Tirisfal, too! And leader of the Blue Dragonflight! It's exactly the stupid thing that humans would do. For once I'd be actively hoping for Garrosh to start screaming "no humans."

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Xynen

I don't understand why everyone thinkg Garrosh is going to lead the Horde astray. Yes, he's much less peaceful then dear old Thrall, but having an aggressive leader is not the same as having an evil leader.

Regardless of who started the war, he's doing all the proper things. Fortifying previously weak outposts, protecting himself with his strongest warriors in the heart of his own city. Sure the Trolls and Blood Elves won't like it, the Goblins won't care because they're new, and there were no Undead that close to the throne anyway, so he's really not offending many people.

Nothing he has done is evil. It's all just based on Horde before all else, and what world leader has not put his own people and faction before everything else?

 

Bierzkrieg

What about the war itself, during Cataclysm? Or the rise of hostilities due to his troops' actions, mostly (I don't recall Alliance troops ambushing Horde's and trapping them between them and the Scourge, like it happened in Icecrown)?

Fine, he's doing well against the Scourge...mostly. But then, against the Alliance and in Cataclysm, he's doing well in a situation he sparked. It's the least we can expect from anyone so bent on having his way. Is he a good commander? He seems to be, yes. Well, then that should be his place. Politics are stronger than military. Politics are what averts wars - by managing the military as well, among many other things.

Garrosh loves war. And as the leader of the Horde - the whole Horde - it's clear in many ways, not least of wall his Orc&Tauren private clubhouse, that he does not care for his people. Thrall saw the Horde as a whole and had everyone's interests in mind - just look at how he helped Sylvannas retake her city. Yes, it might have been naivete, but it was also a show of companionship and caring for his, first and foremost.

To say Garrosh's thoughts or actions (not all, of course) aren't evil just because he has the Horde's interests in mind is dangerous talk.

 

SubtleAmbition

I don't think it's that he isn't peaceful, it's that he's stupid. Not only is he pulling the here's the new horde, same as the old horde routine (hating the alliance with zero reason, wanting to fight for the sake of fighting), he's an idiot when it comes to strategy. He mocks saurfang for concerning himself with silly things like supply lines, artillery, etc. and says that all they need is the "warrior spirit of the horde".

Grom was hot headed and bloodthirsty, but at least he had tactical acumen and knew when to take suggestions. Garrosh, as he is represented now, is just a dumbass. In addition to being bloodthirsty without any motivation for it.

 

Ptoleman

Something like that has already been confirmed in Cataclysm. If I recall, Sylvanas invades Gilneas to try to improve her standing with the other Horde leaders and gain new territory, causing the Worgen to join the Alliance. But don't forget that the Forsaken pretty much hate everyone.

Garrosh's actions might be tolerable were the Lich King or other more pressing threats not around. Unfortunately, they are. With Garrosh going around kicking everybody's buttons, he's proving a huge detriment to an effective front against Arthas for no discernible reason. He hasn't had much contact with the Alliance to explain his hatred of it, and he seems to lack even a basic understanding of logistics and tactics. How he got so much power or influence in the Horde is perplexing.

I think most people dislike him because he just comes across as a mindless Horde fanboy who got where he is through blood instead of merit. (And because Metzen said so.) Horde players would rather have a strong-willed, intelligent Thrall or Saurfang Sr. compared to someone so bratty and foolish.

Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.

Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.

 

Enova

Alexander the Great was an aggressive leader.
Attila the Hun was an aggressive leader.

Both were very astute strategists and tacticians, both able to push people to achieve the impossible. At the height of their powers, their empires spanned half the known world. Yet one went so far as to embrace some of the cultures and customs of the people he conquered. The other had the people he conquered maimed, tortured, raped, when the occasion arose, and invariably killed, often in new and ingenious ways, along with their families, pets, livestock and the local wildlife. Guess who's still the one people look up to, even in today's world

Anyway, that was not even on the same continent as the topic, so I should get back on track and explain some of the things that are wrong with Garrosh, and which would make him unpopular:

- he disrespects or at least couldn't care less about everyone; his superiors, his peers, his underlings
- he treats a continental military campaign the same way a drunk guy treats a bar fight - 'Bring it on, biatch!... hic'
- he clearly does not understand the value of backing off and refuses to accept any other opinion but his own

Now, I do have an idea about what might make Garrosh more likable (discounting Dick 'Deathwing' Dastardly and his mind mangling minions, of course). Garrosh and Draenosh (that's Saurfang the Younger) both grew up in Garadar, and , they might have been close friends. Garrosh hears about his friend's death at Wrathgate, but thinks nothing of it - it was death in glorious battle after all. Then, during the storming of the Citadel, Deathbringer Saurfang pops up. Garrosh is shaken, vows to free his spirit, whatever. Deathbringer dies, and we have two options with much the same outcome:

- the Alliance version, where Varian manages to set aside his hatred and allow Varok a small courtesy; Garrosh still hates Varian with every fiber in his body, but he catches a glimpse of a fellow warrior and slowly begins reassesing his priorities
- the Horde version, where we don't exactly know what happens, but we can speculate that something changes inside Garrosh, either after witnessing his friend stripped of all sense, or after watching Varok's grief, or even after the Alliance lend them a hand when the Deathbringer wakes up again

Guilty as charged ^

 

Bisar213

I would not surprised to find out that Blizzard has a Garrosh book or comic being developed. Something to highlight his rise within the Horde, especially considering he doesn't seem to be all that much when you encounter him in Nagrand.

 

Bierzkrieg

Perhaps the new Horde comic, a split from the current one - along with one dedicated exclusively to the Alliance - will shed some light on this. Although it's from the point of view of a "minor" character - in the bigger scope of things. But he might experience these changes in leadership.

 

Cobs

I don't take Garrosh's attitude that hard to take. Actually I think it naive that the orcs would stay peaceful forever under Thrall. It took some pretty dire circumstances to get them to that point (near annihilation after the second war and imprisonment, then the threat of their entire new world destroyed by the legion after losing their first to the very same). The orcs were chosen by the legion in the first place because they were strong, aggressive and susceptible to the bloodlust and it was the withdrawl from felblood and their defeat that led to their lethargy post 2nd war. I think all of this led to the horde accepting a peacful solution and fresh start away from old enemies. Things have changed though, the Alliance and Horde weren't given a chance to stay away from eachother and cool off and were constantly forced into conflict (forsaken joining the horde giving rise to conflict in the eastern kingdoms, the sentinel joining the alliance providing tension on Kalimdor) and despite some detente in Silithus, Northrend put both factions in close competition with the Wrathgate exploding all pent up feelings.

I'm sort of digressing here but I think my point is the Horde is starting to get their pride and aggression back with victories in outland and northrend so all memory of the post 2nd war lethargy is going away. All this is happening just as the world is about to get a whole lot smaller in terms of resources and living room post cataclysm. There doesn't need to be mindless leaders starting the war, the war will start itself due to the shrinking world and the "arms race" happening because both factions are arguably becoming much more powerful as we defeat the baddies of the universe and steal their artifacts and secrets.

What I'd like to see is a moment of perceived weakness of the alliance, Garrosh attacks head on and gets his butt handed to him and really puts the horde in danger because of it. Saurfang comes back from Nagrand upbraids the young Hellscream and Garrosh sort of realizes that in order to survive the cataclysm he's going to have to realize the full out direct attack isn't going to work. That doesn't mean peace of course because the only way to survive is expansionism when half your farmland is now lava.

 

Xynen

I know aggressive leaders can go two ways, but that's not really my argument. My argument is that, being a dick does not make you evil. Mostly this is directed towards the "Garrosh is a Dragon" theory. He has done nothing so far that would benefit Deathwing, so how he might be an evil dragon in disguise is a concept that eludes me. Sure he wants to crush the Alliance, but I don't think he would be murdering everyone of them.

I'm sure one could say fighting amongst ourselves benefits him, but Icecrown (and the revealed transcripts) seems to prove that we can accomplish our goals regardless of the bickering.

I'm sincerely hoping his personality improves though, because so far I have not liked Garrosh in either his blood lust days or those when he was melancholy.

 

SubtleAmbition

Making the two most powerful and generally good-aligned factions beat the everloving crap out of each other doesn't benefit Deathwing and his plan to basically screw over everyone but the black dragonflight?

At icecrown it's still tensions and people putting aside the already-present threat, and even then the scourge is strengthened by the conflict. In Cataclysm it's at least purported that the war goes full scale, and the horde and alliance are in an outright slugfest.

The lynchpin of his behavior hinting at him being a dragon impersonator, in my eyes, is that he went from being depressed and ready to let his people die to the Broken raiders to wanting war, nothing but war, and only war, with a side of war, with a faction he had little to no hostile contact with. It's his lack of visible motivations and the etremity of his reactions coupled with the fact that he seems to be interjecting his big stupid ass into any situation that could result in continued peace and single handedly fouling it that leads me to believe he's under foriegn influence (and probably draconic influence).

That, and despite my general pessimism when it comes to the lore, I would think (or rather, hope) that Blizzard hasn't fouled the chance to have a new Horde character that would be a worthy successor to Grom. They've taken the son of hellscream and turned him into something that the vast majority of the horde HATES.