You need to chill out again. The reasons for the transformation in Garrosh's personality are 100% obvious -- he was ALWAYS like he is now but he deliberately restrained himself out of fear of turning into his father. It's very clear from the Nagrand questline which you apparently have never done.
There is literally nothing in any of the story that hints at Garrosh being impersonated by a dragon. At all. Zilch. It's pure wild speculation born almost solely in this thread. It's nonsense. Garrosh's personality is entirely consistent with his heritage, his Nagrand character, his relationship with Thrall, and his experiences with humans.
If your major interaction with human leadership had been with Varian Wrynn, would you like them much? Thrall has a wider perspective -- that doesn't mean that Garrosh is a dragon-puppet or a phony.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Something that I think people might be forgetting is that Garrosh would not be the one starting the war between the Horde and the Alliance, because it's essentially already begun. Varian already declared war on the Horde during the Battle for Undercity, the only thing that's left is for the Horde to do likewise to make it completely official. However, we all know and can see that it's pretty much the case anyway.
Thrall likely hasn't declared war yet because of a combination of the threat of Arthas, and the fact that he personally wishes that it weren't so. He would likely continue to avoid it until it was absolutely necessary for the good of the Horde to do so. Garrosh obviously would have no qualms with acknowledging that the Alliance and Horde are already at war.
I don't take Garrosh's attitude that hard to take. Actually I think it naive that the orcs would stay peaceful forever under Thrall. It took some pretty dire circumstances to get them to that point (near annihilation after the second war and imprisonment, then the threat of their entire new world destroyed by the legion after losing their first to the very same). The orcs were chosen by the legion in the first place because they were strong, aggressive and susceptible to the bloodlust and it was the withdrawl from felblood and their defeat that led to their lethargy post 2nd war. I think all of this led to the horde accepting a peacful solution and fresh start away from old enemies. Things have changed though, the Alliance and Horde weren't given a chance to stay away from eachother and cool off and were constantly forced into conflict (forsaken joining the horde giving rise to conflict in the eastern kingdoms, the sentinel joining the alliance providing tension on Kalimdor) and despite some detente in Silithus, Northrend put both factions in close competition with the Wrathgate exploding all pent up feelings.
I'm sort of digressing here but I think my point is the Horde is starting to get their pride and aggression back with victories in outland and northrend so all memory of the post 2nd war lethargy is going away. All this is happening just as the world is about to get a whole lot smaller in terms of resources and living room post cataclysm. There doesn't need to be mindless leaders starting the war, the war will start itself due to the shrinking world and the "arms race" happening because both factions are arguably becoming much more powerful as we defeat the baddies of the universe and steal their artifacts and secrets.
There's also the minor detail that the overwhelming majority of the orcs in the Horde weren't actually involved in the first or second wars, so their opinion of the Alliance isn't guilt about demon-blood and destroying kingdoms, but "Those people who locked us up in camps then followed us to our new homes in some badlands and attacked us" (and that's ignoring that 2/5th of the Horde were Alliance in the second war, and another 2/5th were not involved at all).
It's hardly surprising that when Wrynn stomps around and threatens genocide, it's only the older orcs (+ Thrall) who still try to make peace. All of the rest are probably going "Well, if you really want a war...come get some"
You need to chill out again. The reasons for the transformation in Garrosh's personality are 100% obvious -- he was ALWAYS like he is now but he deliberately restrained himself out of fear of turning into his father. It's very clear from the Nagrand questline which you apparently have never done.
There is literally nothing in any of the story that hints at Garrosh being impersonated by a dragon. At all. Zilch. It's pure wild speculation born almost solely in this thread. It's nonsense. Garrosh's personality is entirely consistent with his heritage, his Nagrand character, his relationship with Thrall, and his experiences with humans.
If your major interaction with human leadership had been with Varian Wrynn, would you like them much? Thrall has a wider perspective -- that doesn't mean that Garrosh is a dragon-puppet or a phony.
I've been stating opinions and theories civilly. You've been an antagonistic know-it-all in every post. Perhaps you should take your own advice.
There is nothing explicitly in game that states Garrosh is controlled in a dragon. This is new information about as much "water is wet". You are stating the obvious and coming in here trying to quash a speculative discussion in the thread specifically meant for it.
It IS clear that Garrosh, among having other problems (I have done the questline), is trying to avoid becoming his father. But that doesn't give him motivation for his out-of-nowhere alliance hatred, which the Horde was nominally at peace with at the time of his introduction to it, or make his behavior any less stupid. His interactions with Varian were very one-sided asshattery on his part. Have you read the comics? Varian doesn't exactly help the situation, but open hostility for no reason stated anywhere comes all from Garrosh.
Last edited by SubtleAmbition : 11/05/09 at 8:12 PM.
I don't know what you mean by "overwhelming majority" of orcs not being part of the demonic horde. Wasn't the frostwolf clan the only one not to be corrupted?
As to your other point, when cataclysm comes old rivalries and justifications won't be needed for war. The fact will become if they want to survive they will need to expand territory just to be able to feed and shelter their current populations. This is true for all 10 (or soon to be 12) races.
The Frostwolves and those affected by the red fever (I think that's what it's called) were the only ones not to ingest demon blood and become part of the proper Horde.. If somebody has a source for information to the opposite of that effect could they enlighten me?
That's correct, Subtle, with only Doomhammer to add, beside any anonymous orcs we don't know about.
Also, could someone explain to me what Garrosh trying to avoid becoming his father mean? The way I see it, he's surpassed his old man, what with not giving a crap about Thrall and Saurfang's opinions, et all. He certainly doesn't trail behind in aggressiveness. He only restrained from emulating the older Hellscream because he thought he was the son of a villain. Once he found out about his father's heroic feat, Garrosh went straight for papa's approval. To the point that Saurfang has to remind him that Grom dumped his fair share of shitloads in the Horde's dump, with his brutal nature.
There is nothing indicating Garrosh could be a dragon in disguise because Blizzard would never reveal anything on that matter. Was there anything indicating Deathwing would burst up from the ground and cause a disaster? There is, however, something that makes a Dragon-Garrosh plausible. The fact that the black dragonflight has done it before. And it would've worked, were it not for those meddling heroes. So, what would be the natural way to think? "Let's try it with those who've never been subject to this method before - the Horde".
You can't say Garrosh's development as a character is "natural", for christ's sake...He's NEVER been like this "and was restraining himself". More likely, once his angst wore of, he just went ballistic from so many years restraining WHATEVER true nature he held within. He was raised by Grandmother Geya and the Mag'har, so he must've taken something from them. It's not "natural" that Garrosh hates the Alliance so. And if he's being honest in that hate, then - were he a "real person" - anyone would think there was something truly wrong. How can you feel such a hate simply out of emulating your father's? Specially when such father never talked to you about the Alliance?
I'm ready to believe there isn't any black dragon behind Garrosh, be it himself or his advisors, I never thought so to begin with. But then Blizzard needs to look at their character development. It went awful with Hellscream Jr.
Grom was a hot-head and let his battle lust dictate his actions before even ingesting demon blood. He was involved in inter-tribal warfare heavily (as were most orcs, though) before the war on the draenei. Garrosh's last memories and the orcs that were left behinds' tales of Grom most likely painted him as one of the key orchestrators of the Orcs' downfall.
Which he was.
But in avoiding that, he became paralyzed by indecision, fear, and emotion. Until he was shown by Thrall that while Grom had his faults, it was he who ended up saving the Orcs' future by killing Magtheridon.
In my opinion though, that doesn't in any way explain the hatred for the alliance, the sudden extremity of his bloodthirstiness, and his utter disregard for tactics that even his father had a firm grip on. The orc led Garadar and survived Burning Legion, Ogre, and Broken incursions for until the players arrived there to find him in an emo stupor, WHY does he suddenly not know didly shit about running a war and have a hard on for killing humans (which don't even have anything approaching an outpost in Nagrand and are not said anywhere to have had any contact with Garadar, conflict or otherwise).
As I don't see the Garrosh-Dragon thingy happening, it's likely going to take one hell of a stomach-hardening to understand Garrosh's "redemption", with what we have right now. Blizzard really overdid themselves in portraying Hellscream as an extremist.
I don't think the dwindling resources explain the Cataclysm war by themselves. Wouldn't a full-scale war cost more than it'd be worth, what with the life-loss?
Another subject: Cairne Bloodhoof's absence takes place in 3.3, right? Any suggestions for what happens to one of the most underused characters in World of Warcraft?
@Subtle Ambition: I'm sorry if it seemed as if I thought you defended the Dragon theory, it wasn't my intention.
I don't think I said I was convinced that would happen, just that it was an idea. Just trying to come up with ways they can have their character not be hated by half of his own faction is all.
I just hope Cairne goes out both nobly and with a heaping helping of badass, as befits his character. Saving injured children in the Cataclysm and then ambushed by the (rogue?) SI:7 agents that kidnap Thrall.
I can't see them justifying Garrosh, the new kid on the block upstart, killing Cairne, one of the more liked Horde Leaders and a veteran from the founding of the new horde. If not SI:7 I'm sure Magatha will have a hand in it, but even then. Unless they are setting up Garrosh to be taken down later on, they are just going to have so much of the Horde HATING their leader. Moreso than Varian and his alliance detractors that just think he's a douche, or Fandral Staghelm, even (despite the fact he becomes more sympathetic as you look deeper into his story and explained political views).
At risk of sounding like a jackass and scoring myself an infraction, can we please try to keep the absurd "speculation" to a minimum? When there's founding evidence or text available to support a theory, this thread serves some great needs. But when people just pull unsubstantiated ideas out of thin air and recycle the same discussions every 5th page, it gets a little dreary. (This is at least the 3rd time the "Maybe Garrosh is <manipulated by> a Black Dragon, that would explain his crazy attitude!!!11!" discussion has popped up.)
Please don't get me wrong - I appreciate alot of the theories and premonitions that have been born as a result of this thread. I just think the value of the thread has diminished a bit lately with some of the downright silly ideas that have surfaced without credible evidence.
Having said all that, from an Alliance perspective, I really don't see Garrosh as the giant warmongering meathead he's made out to be in this thread. I don't even know why Horde players hate him. Varian declared war during the Battle of the Undercity - and Thrall didn't exactly turn the diplomatic tail and run - he fought back. So Garrosh hears about Varian's attack on Thrall & the declaration of War, and he does what any good soldier would do - he defends his Warchief with honor. His words are brash, but from what I can see, he's nothing but a loyal and noble Warrior. Signs of Black Dragonflight influence aren't apparent from where I'm standing - he's certainly not driving the Horde anywhere negative and he's not betraying anyone. I see his (defensive) re-inforcement of Orgrimmar and military expansion as a tactically intelligent step forward for the Horde.
Make no mistake - the 4th War began nearly a year ago. Stop looking for a catalyst in Icecrown - it's been there since 3.0.
Having said all that, from an Alliance perspective, I really don't see Garrosh as the giant warmongering meathead he's made out to be in this thread. I don't even know why Horde players hate him. Varian declared war during the Battle of the Undercity - and Thrall didn't exactly turn the diplomatic tail and run - he fought back. So Garrosh hears about Varian's attack on Thrall & the declaration of War, and he does what any good soldier would do - he defends his Warchief with honor. His words are brash, but from what I can see, he's nothing but a loyal and noble Warrior. Signs of Black Dragonflight influence aren't apparent from where I'm standing - he's certainly not driving the Horde anywhere negative and he's not betraying anyone. I see his (defensive) re-inforcement of Orgrimmar and military expansion as a tactically intelligent step forward for the Horde.
I don't see Garrosh as "evil" either, he's just not likeable. On any level. A character can be evil and likable at the same time. Take Sylvanas for example. She's hardly a Thrall/Cairne character, but most Horde I know like her anyway, as she has some reason for her attitude and she will defend the Forsaken's right to exist onto death. She's multilayered. Has both evil and good in her. And she's ruthless. The reason so many Horde dislike Garrosh is that he's just not showing any sort of redeeming traits. His chief personality trait seems to be hubris. Hubris is one of the most unattractive qualities ever seen in a leader. He also shows little to no respect for the Horde heroes we grown to like so far, heroes which embody the views of the new Horde. Those same views which attracted a lot of players (me included) to the Horde in the first place. If he's gonna piss all over what you (or rather your character) stand for, you're not going to like him.
EDIT: If I may make the comparison, he's like the Horde version of Highlord Garithos.
Having said all that, from an Alliance perspective, I really don't see Garrosh as the giant warmongering meathead he's made out to be in this thread. I don't even know why Horde players hate him. Varian declared war during the Battle of the Undercity - and Thrall didn't exactly turn the diplomatic tail and run - he fought back. So Garrosh hears about Varian's attack on Thrall & the declaration of War, and he does what any good soldier would do - he defends his Warchief with honor. His words are brash, but from what I can see, he's nothing but a loyal and noble Warrior. Signs of Black Dragonflight influence aren't apparent from where I'm standing - he's certainly not driving the Horde anywhere negative and he's not betraying anyone. I see his (defensive) re-inforcement of Orgrimmar and military expansion as a tactically intelligent step forward for the Horde.
Make no mistake - the 4th War began nearly a year ago. Stop looking for a catalyst in Icecrown - it's been there since 3.0.
There is more to it than just what you witness at Battle for Undercity, and that is the focus of the discussion. I suggest you pick up the comics. They are actually a suprisingly good read, and they will give you more of an idea of what so many peoples' problem with Garrosh is. There's also when Garrosh challenged Thrall's leadership in the Ring of Honor.. and his mocking of Saurfang, his disdain of basic tactics and strategy beyond which limb to aim for with his axes demonstrated in Warsong Hold.. There's a lot more than what you've mentioned. Methinks some research is in order.
As for "lessening" the value of the thread, I don't see any seperation between speculating on the fate of Saurfang Sr. in icecrown and beyond or how Thrall was captured by SI:7 as being any different from postulating that Garrosh is actually a black dragon impostor. If you don't like the discussion, perhaps try cherrypicking around it? If it doesn't have any value it'll surely die out on it's own.
Edit: GOOD comparison, Kollar.
Last edited by SubtleAmbition : 11/05/09 at 9:53 PM.
I'm not looking for a catalyst, I'm looking for a spark.
About the dragon thing, it's not that it's never been tried, but I really went at it mostly for the sake of speculating. Still, would someone have antecipated the pretty lady next to Anduin Wrynn becoming the daughter of Deathwing - if not from the incredibly stupid overuse of the "Prestor" surname?
How did Thrall fight back, apart from the Undercity incident? He wasn't the one who ordered his troops to pincer the Alliance army between them and the Scourge. He never said he'd have to answer Varian's declaration of war with his own.
Perhaps you should look a bit more into the changes the Horde has experienced after Thrall, and then confront them with Garrosh's views. He basically wants the Old Horde sans demonic influence back. He wants blood and conquest. And once the conquest is over...The problem with the warring characters is that they know and think of little else besides war itself. Hellscream lives for glorious battles, just like his father. Does that truly make a good leader? Or just for one victorious - for a while - monster?
There is more to it than just what you witness at Battle for Undercity, and that is the focus of the discussion. I suggest you pick up the comics. They are actually a suprisingly good read, and they will give you more of an idea of what so many peoples' problem with Garrosh is. There's also when Garrosh challenged Thrall's leadership in the Ring of Honor.. and his mocking of Saurfang, his disdain of basic tactics and strategy beyond which limb to aim for with his axes demonstrated in Warsong Hold.. There's a lot more than what you've mentioned. Methinks some research is in order.
As for "lessening" the value of the thread, I don't see any seperation between speculating on the fate of Saurfang Sr. in icecrown and beyond or how Thrall was captured by SI:7 as being any different from postulating that Garrosh is actually a black dragon impostor. If you don't like the discussion, perhaps try cherrypicking around it? If it doesn't have any value it'll surely die out on it's own.
I was moreso focusing on the discussion and speculation that Garrosh is expected to to trigger something in Icecrown in order to start the 4th War, when it's already been underway for a long time. It just seems irrational (from a strictly Alliance perspective) that he's labelled as a reckless warmonger when he wasn't the one who even initiated it. I'd dismissed his challenging of Thrall in the 3.0 invasion event as a product of culture. If something like that happened within the Alliance, I'd be more shocked, but it seems to fit well within Orcish "political" boundaries. I'll try to get my hands on the comics - I wasn't aware he was in them.
As for my comments on the value of the thread, I have no problem with cherrypicking. I was just noting that over the last few months, the direction of the thread seems to have often steered from identifying connections and sources for supporting theories to simply coming up with random ideas for the sake of discussion. Here's an example.
"I think it would be really cool (although I don't think it would ever happen) if Khadgar teleported in at 1% and finished off Arthas, murdered Jaina, then took the crown and became the new Lich King because he's being possessed by Kael'Thas' demon-infused spirit."
^ Nonsense.
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
How did Thrall fight back, apart from the Undercity incident?
I was specifically talking about the Undercity event. If Jaina hadn't intervened, it's safe to say that at least one Faction Leader would have died down there. My guess would have been Varian; in which case Thrall would be labelled as a warmongering savage!
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
He never said he'd have to answer Varian's declaration of war with his own.
I don't quite understand this statement... if someone declares war on you, it's a war. It's not a mutual agreement.
He basically wants the Old Horde sans demonic influence back. He wants blood and conquest. And once the conquest is over...The problem with the warring characters is that they know and think of little else besides war itself. Hellscream lives for glorious battles, just like his father. Does that truly make a good leader? Or just for one victorious - for a while - monster?
Is this information delivered in the comics or only via Horde quests or something? From my angle, he comes across as a guy who simply refuses to tolerate threats and deal with petty politics. If someone or something threatens the Horde, his first choice would be to eliminate the threat, rather than talk his way out of it. I don't think that makes him a monster. I've personally only ever seen him threaten/attack a single Human - the very same Human who declared war on his people and attacked his Warchief.
That example is a gross exaggeration of the speculation which has been occuring. You can make your point without acting like a jerk.
Merely mentioning the "what faction leader could kill who" is a powderkeg of inanity that I'm not even gonna touch..
Through Horde quests, horde-only interaction, and the comics, Garrosh has a lot more behavior that has done less than endear him into the players' eyes. Again, I suggest you look further into the character so you can better understand what everyone's problem is with him. You don't seem to be working with the whole picture.
Mal'Garrosh or Garfarian theories are kind of pointless to speculate about since they can only be verified ex post facto. They also violate Occam's Razor, which is why they tend to be used very sparingly in lore. Not to say that such lore is automatically illegitimate: it's certainly possible in the WoW universe. We've got the Cosmic Windchime Gods (TM) floating in Shatt.
But still:
"So instead of this guy actually being a jerk as all signs indicate, he's REALLY a Nathrezim/Dragon/Crazed Gnome impersonating him and the REAL guy is actually very reasonable and tolerable and...."
Garrosh <-> Garithos is a pretty good comparison, but I like to put Garithos on his own pedestal of idiocy, as he was responsible for throwing away one of the best allies the Alliance has ever had. The wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time, no? We shall have to wait and see if Garrosh proves as equally disastrous for the Horde. I doubt it.
--
Anyway, back on the nature of Garrosh. I think it also should be said that it's hard to view the in-game presentation of the Thrall/Garrosh duel as being anything but lame, which might be a minor factor in why Garrosh is disliked. Perhaps the comic had more to say about it due to the flexibility of the medium compared to a small world event, but Thrall's "loss" to Garrosh in game seemed very contrived, given how powerful Thrall has been stated to be. I think some speculated at the time that Thrall intentionally lost to Garrosh so as to prevent more inner conflict, yet the point stands. The duel probably ticked some Horde players off: it was their first impression of Garrosh v. Thrall and subsequent exchanges have failed to paint Garrosh in any better of a light.
[Edited for spelling]
Last edited by Ptoleman : 11/06/09 at 12:19 AM.
Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.
Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.
I think the main reason Horde players dislike Garrosh is not because of Garrosh himself it is because of "Garrosh compared to Thrall".
Horde is the badass looking faction but it's soul is not evil. Most famous and proeminent leaders are not warmongers, they are old veterans who know what war can bring on their people. These leaders are Thrall and Cairne. Other horde leaders are either not fully trustworthy (Sylvanas), totally passive (Vol'jin) or not existing at all (Blood Elf leader ?!).
Thrall (and Cairne) are the heart and soul of the Horde, what makes the horde more human and less feral. So when you explain to Horde players that the characters who embody the valors we used to learn and like will be replaced by some extremely violent and warmongering fool, they get pissed.
Garrosh by himself is an interesting character, struggling to make his name shine once again in the Horde, he embodies the aggressive aspect of the horde and that is totally fine, if you consider that there is a counterpart. Without Thrall, Cairne and Saurfang Sr (who may died in IC) Garrosh will have no true opposition and Horde could easily become a dictatorship ...
I don't quite understand this statement... if someone declares war on you, it's a war. It's not a mutual agreement.
A declaration of war is just that, a declaration. You can have declarations without actual wars and wars without actual declarations.
Since the wrathgate events at level 75 Varrian and Thrall have had face to face meetings in Dalaran and at the Argent Tournament without bloodshed (despite Garrosh's wishes otherwise) Nothing in the post wrathgate questing experience alliance side indicates any more agressive or warlike pose on the part of the alliance towards the horde. In game it's quite the opposite, lorewise alliance heroes travel to warsong gulch to prevent orcs from cutting down trees, but when alliance troops are ambushed and massacred at Arthas' doorstep just shortly after a splinter group from the horde *just did the exact same thing* (which supposedly started a war?) alliance leaders shrug it off and attend a jousting tournament with their enemies.
Basically there's no uptake in war or warlike behavior on the part of anyone excepting Garrosh as a result of this "declaration of war" at all that I can see. Clearly Varrion is hotheaded, but I think it can safely be assumed that Jaina took him aside, talked him down some and that Thrall is wise enough to see the situation for what it is, not war. At least not to any greater extent than already existed previous to the wrathgate questline.
As for the Garrosh/Thrall duel, I remember arguing with people at the time that while when the duel is interrupted in game Thrall has a lower HP percent, he's also healing in the duel and if I remember correctly had been down by greater deficits previous to that point in the duel. I'm not sure if there's any information from the comics, but from the in-game event I don't think it's fair at all to conclude that Garrosh was on his way to winning.
Having said all that, from an Alliance perspective, I really don't see Garrosh as the giant warmongering meathead he's made out to be in this thread. I don't even know why Horde players hate him. Varian declared war during the Battle of the Undercity - and Thrall didn't exactly turn the diplomatic tail and run - he fought back. So Garrosh hears about Varian's attack on Thrall & the declaration of War, and he does what any good soldier would do - he defends his Warchief with honor. His words are brash, but from what I can see, he's nothing but a loyal and noble Warrior. Signs of Black Dragonflight influence aren't apparent from where I'm standing - he's certainly not driving the Horde anywhere negative and he's not betraying anyone. I see his (defensive) re-inforcement of Orgrimmar and military expansion as a tactically intelligent step forward for the Horde.
Really? As an Alliance player I've fostered a grave dislike for him already (and as a Horde player I thought he was a douche aswell).
After getting goosebumps at Wrathgate with Bolver and Saurfang fighting side-by-side as friends (after alot of friction between factions - especially viewing HF through the eys of a "niave" Alliance grunt meeting the Forsaken without any wider knowledge) then suddenly you reach Icecrown and see an Alliance Regiment cut down - from behind - apparently under his orders.
Not to mention ToC with the sound file after Jarraxus (though this is more likely due to not having enough faction specific lines) where he starts BAAAAW'ing about "You dare summon a Demon against warriors of the Horde". As an Alliance Raid, thinking in terms of Lore;
1) It was an Alliance Warlock who *died* (we'll assume that ignoring game mechanics players who 'die' in the fight are merely seriously wounded to be ressucitated later)
2) It was summoned against an *alliance* raid.
3) The Alliance have far more reason to hate the Demons than the horde (assuming peasant/peon level knowledge of events - the Orcs sold thier souls to demons for power and devestated the human lands *twice*). Yes, *we* know that they were tricked, but the average Peon/Peasant on both sides is unlikely to be told as much.
TL;DR? Every time I hear that emote I want to scale the Colliseum and plant an axe between his eyes.
As for the Dragon theories? I fail to see the harm in discussing them (assuming moderation) as there is actually very little to support *anything* in this thread, and considering Blizzards penchant for retconning major plot elements to fit the game development (not just between WC1/2/3 and WoW but between Classic and WotLK aswell, re: Old Gods/Elemental Lords and WotLK "Curse of Flesh"). And to be fair, after having Blizz say they want Garrosh to be more "likeable" it would be logical, to some, to follow this path. My first 60 was Alliance and I have to say, I didn't give two s**ts for Bolvar UNTIL the Onyxia chain where you see his anguish between his duty as Lord protector and his loyalty to his friend. The dragon manipulation and the turmoil it entailed really humanised the character - and frankly half the discussions about the ICC "mantle" wouldn't be here if it weren't for that quest line making Bolvar "the people's hero".
I think Occam's razor should be used with care when regarding human-created phenomenons like a storyline's development. Unlike natural events, which obey to "strict" laws, human ones obey to nothing more than it's creator's mind. So, again unlike nature, in this case the source of the event (Blizzard) might go so far as to antecipate the viewer/reader employing Occam's razor to predict the event. Or expect us to expect him to. Human imagination has little limits.
I like this kind of theorycrafting, but if this theory meets with so great opposition - and I'll admit that's justifiable to a point - I'll refrain from deepening it anymore for now, for the sake or avoiding the "That's absurd/No it isn't" discussion and skip to other theories or themes.
Of course that, if someone declares war on you, it's a war. What I meant is that Thrall did not answer the declaration with one of his own. Above all, he hates that things have come to this. The Undercity "incident" is not a duel between the two, Thrall was attacked and was fighting for his life.
Right now, I fail (end of statement :p) to see how Garrosh will change his mindset without something groundbreaking (no Cataclysm pun intended) taking place. Like I said, Blizzard outdid themselves in creating an extremist and as close-minded a character as they come. Usually, such personalities don't change without a shock. To be honest, though, I believe Blizzard will just have Garrosh be affected by Draenosh's deathknightly return, Varian's gesture, an eventual death of Saurfang and change his ways. I'll buy it, even though it's out of character for him. He's not a demon or anything, but his mind is in full war mode. He's a mix of Doomhammer and Blackhand, with the first's concern for the Horde and the later's absolute ruthlessness and love for killing.
As for the Garrosh/Thrall duel, I remember arguing with people at the time that while when the duel is interrupted in game Thrall has a lower HP percent, he's also healing in the duel and if I remember correctly had been down by greater deficits previous to that point in the duel. I'm not sure if there's any information from the comics, but from the in-game event I don't think it's fair at all to conclude that Garrosh was on his way to winning.
In the comics (#19), Thrall doesn't seem to be in any danger at all, and completely in control. The Scourge attacks, he repels Garrosh easily saying only "we'll finish this later". He actually provokes Garrosh into challenging him to try to stop support for Garrosh's ideas from growing. It is very badly written, like all WoW comics, but...
edit: Adding the full dialog for those who don't have access to the comics:
Garrosh: "By your 'statecraft' you turn the orcs to weaklings, Warchief. We should conquer the humans, who are as nothing... then send our forces to Northrend to crush the Lich King and his undead army. The Horde should rule all of Azeroth!"
Rehgar (whispering to Thrall): "Garrosh is close to challenging your leadership, Thrall."
Thrall (whispering back): "I fear you are right, Rehgar. T'would be best to force his hand before support for his ideas grows."
Thrall (outloud): "The humans are no threat to us, while the Lich King is a wily opponent. I will not walk blindly into this trap. Nor will I make the same mistakes as your father!"
Garrosh: "You insult my father thus? After all that Grom Hellscream did for you and our people? Mak'gora!"
Thrall: "A challenge, boy? Inside, then. We finish this quickly... in the Ring of Valor"
Wow I had never seen that convo. For me that means losing Thrall as leader will be that much more devastating (for lack of a better term) because it's obvious he's a very competent leader willing to put his life on the line for the good of his people and Garrosh is a blood thirsty douche (This is all stuff everyone has said but it's never been more clear to me until I read that dialog).
I don't quite understand this statement... if someone declares war on you, it's a war. It's not a mutual agreement.
I'm confused, when was war declared? It's not in the Alliance version of the Undercity, is it in the Horde version? I also don't recall Garrosh being present - in either version of the event. So justifying Garrosh's warmongering by saying he's responding to a non-existent declaration of war that occurred during a battle where he wasn't even present... I believe the response is "nonsense."
Yes, Varian tells his folks to attack Thrall. Admitted, this is a pretty stupid reaction when the Horde just defeated Varimathras while you were fighting Putress. It's not like they were defending Varimathras or Putress, quite the opposite. Politically also very stupid.
Both Alliance and Horde leadership have been stupid in stellar proportion since Wrath launched.
Exhibit A:
Thrall's not bothering to do any leading. Unless you call sitting watching Gladiatorial combat in Icecrown leadership. [sarcasm]Obviously he's a big fan of Gladiatorial combat, nothing in his background would dispute this.[/sarcasm]
Exhibit B:
Garrosh is acting like a sociopath. "All I see is an Atreid... er, Alliance I want to kill." Kill, kill, kill, that's all he cares about. Not honorable battle and victory, but killing.
Exhibit C:
Varian's not bothering to do any leading. Who cares about Old Gods, screw them, the Horde stole my lunch money. Unless you call sitting watching Gladiatorial combat in Icecrown leadership. [sarcasm]Obviously he's a big fan of Gladiatorial combat, nothing in his background would dispute this.[/sarcasm]
Exhibit D:
... Oh, wait, the rest of the Alliance leadership isn't even bothering to get involved. Honestly, that's potentially worse than A, B, and C combined.
Exhibit E:
Jaina (not an Alliance faction leader) is apologizing for everyone else's actions, because none of them will "man up" and do so themselves. Obviously no one is listening to her - she's a girl, what to girls know about killing things. Well, other than the fact that she's [sarcasm]a big fan of Gladiatorial combat.[/sarcasm]
Exhibit F:
2 Humans, 2 Orcs. What does the majority of the population (you know, Draenei, Trolls, Dwarves, Tauren, Elves of various backgrounds, Forsaken, and Gnomes) think about the situation? There's no way that the other races combined are outnumbered by Humans and Orcs.
War has NOT been officially declared by either side. I don't think the word has even come up in conversation. Both Garrosh and Varian are too busy playing "he's on my side of the back seat" and "he touched me" to do something as productive as active declarations. Everyone else is busy pretending they don't know these jerks. Thrall should just turn the damn car around and take them back home and send them to bed without dinner. He's the only leader for which I have any respect - when he bothers to lead. Right now he's a parent letting the children run out of control.
As I've said before - both sides are acting assinine. Trying to defend Varian OR Garrosh is just displaying a personal bias and ignoring the numerous flaws of the defendant.
Final thought. Alliance and Horde worked together at the Wrath Gate. Arthas was kicking their combined ass. Obviously it's better for both groups to fight each other and him, simultaneously. Brilliant leadership across the board.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
That's what we're saying when we assume a declaration of war has been made. I can't transcript Varian's lines right now, but look into his final words to Thrall at Undercity or his attitude (and Garrosh's) at the Violet Citadel. Isn't that enough? They don't actually need to call a press conference to announce the oppening of hostilities.
At least Garrosh certainly doesn't. Throwing away all sense of brain-using, he (or one of his "clone officers") orders a huge Alliance operation thwarted (as in massacre every single soldier) at a second Gate. This is the third time I mention this, the reason being it's been given the same importance Blizzard does - none...A good deal of your troops and two siege tanks (of a sort) who are doing the right thing - fighting Scourge - get ambushed by Horde Berserkers (litterally).The results? Materials and plenty of corpses for the Scourge to use, plus the Alliance losing many good men and women.
I know this isn't real life, but try to imagine something like this happening between countries that have ceased all previous cooperation and hate each other - openly. A major military operation against what is still a common enemy and a bunch of the other countries' craziest soldiers screw the whole thing for the sake of fighting.
This could have started war. Instead, curiously, the Skybreaker's route seems to prevent them from flying above that area. Perhaps it's better that way, if they have weak stomachs. In all likelyhood, the Alliance knows what happened. But I'll still take it Blizzard didn't want for faction vs faction full war to start so soon and just made that an obscure zone, for the game's sake.
11/05/09, 3:48 PM
