Kirion

One of the most interesting things to me is how they changes zones that listed as unknown. What's up with dark horde, dark irons and Blackrock spire. I also wonder what's the current lore on the Rend Blackhand, is he dead?

I'm wondering mostly because there is a striking resemblance in development of Garrosh's character and the first warchief of the Horde, Blackhand. Just look up for wowwiki entry. And Blackhand was manipulated by Gul'dan and the shadow council...

42.

 

Ptoleman

Like I said, there's nothing illegitimate with those kind of theories in the WoW Universe. They can and do happen. However, they do require us to assume something unnecessary in the face of all evidence, and they can't be verified until after it's happened. That's not the same as speculating, say, how Garrosh will become leader of the Horde. We know he will, and we know its possible in the crazy world of politics, and it doesn't require us to believe that his current man is possessed. Even inside the imagination theories are subject to the scrutiny of simplicity.

---

Varian's actions in the Undercity were myopic, not stupid. It's rather hard for outsiders in the Alliance to distinguish between Putress/Varimathras' Forsaken and Sylvanas' Forsaken. Not even Sylvanas' knew of the plots against her, and the issue becomes worse when you consider that Varimathras' and Sylvanas' long-term agendas only differed in loyalty and execution. The Forsaken as a whole still want to wipe everyone out--or at least eliminate anyone who is a serious threat to them--and that qualifies pretty much the entire Alliance, given them every reason to be suspicious and fearful.

Yes, Varian should have been more thoughtful about it and chose a more pragmatic route--fighting Thrall and Sylvanas in those sewers would have caused great harm to both factions regardless of the outcome--but both his and Thrall's actions in the Undercity are totally understandable given what they've been through as individuals and what political/social/cultural contexts they exist in. The factions in the Horde have a bad history of rampaging over planets and killing people. Varian myopically sees what's happened in the Undercity as one in a long, simplistic line of atrocities on the part of the Horde. He's emotionally simplifying a complex issue. Myopic and foolish, but not stupid.

Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.

Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.

 

• Spleen

TLDR version: Garrosh went from emo whiner to ubermansch patriot in a short space of time, without significant development. That's why we hate him and rightfully so.

There is little foundation for attentive horde players to really like Garrosh, especially compared to Thrall. Our direct introduction to Garrosh is through The Impotent Leader, where he's described as sitting on his hands and "weeping into the fire."

He basically shat on our efforts at the end of every single quest we turned in to him:

"What does it matter? The Greatmother is dying. Life is not worth living..."

<Garrosh crumples up the map and throws it into the fire.> "What's the use? They've been attacking us for weeks. This is nothing new. Don't you understand? We're done for... Greatmother Geyah is dying."

"Everyone is proud. Proud that our people will live to see another winter. But beyond that? What is there? Maybe you should lead this clan, <name>. Maybe then I will be allowed to die when the Greatmother passes. Allowed to finally erase the shame of my family name. I long for such peace." (The follow-up is equally depressing.)

After brokering peace between Garadar and the Burning Blade, Garrosh has more words of encouragement.

...

Fast-forward to the end of TBC, with the second Scourge Invasion events at the Orgrimmar Arena, where "meathead Garrosh" makes his debut. The belief in orc supremacy and hatred for humans comes out of nowhere, unless it's inferred by the conflicts with the Alliance Expedition. Is the inference blizzard wants us to draw "Garrosh is Grom-lite"?

The familial connection seemed to come with a sense of entitlement, as the challenge to Thrall seemed to be motivated by the reasoning that "my aggressive father was great and did great things for our people, since I am his son I will follow in his footsteps, Thrall is passive and is running the Horde into the ground, therefore I should be leader."

As a quest-giver at Borean Tundra, he chafed under Saurfang and thus continued the trend of being impudent towards characters better liked by the fans. After the near-suicide mission at the Warsong farms, from which Saurfang bails you out unknown to Garrosh, the player is treated to more lip from a character who doesn't appear to actually solve any problems or demonstrate leadership:

"And you returned victorious, just as I thought! I told Saurfang you'd be fine. <Hellscream grunts knowingly.> Perhaps this will show that old dog that he doesn't have all the answers, eh?"

A shining example of nepotism. Maybe blizzard actually wants us to hate the character. By comparison, Thrall had the events of Lord of the Clans, WC3/TFT, and WoW/TBC to bolster his fanbase/vitae. Compared to Garrosh, Varian's a Dostoevsky protagonist- I'm having trouble seeing why people would make the mistake of equivocating the two. Varian's had a lot of development through comics and he was prominent in the Battle for the Undercity event. Regarding his prejudices/politics, I don't see why people have such a problem with grasping the idea that orcs killing his father, razing his kingdom, enslaving him, and making him fight for his life would affect the character's outlook.

All we have about Garrosh are assumptions and party-line positions. No soul, no heart, no development.

Isms and ologies. Give me facts.

 

Leviathon

We discussed that quite a bit when Cataclysm was announced. Made a mockup back then also what I think the new leveling progression path would be based on the other 2 images we had: http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...ysmAzeroth.jpg .

I think it's pretty safe to say that the Badlands will get changed from Deathwings path to Grim Batol along with the Searing Gorge and maybe the Steppes to a lesser degree. All 3 zones though are pretty underused right now and I'd imagine we will see quite a bit changed questing and mob-wise there. With Nefarian back I can see him maybe leading some Dark Horde that are left or just relying on his father for Twilight Dragons and Twilight Cultists. Redridge Mountains is green on that map so it's status isn't unknown (you can see a small sliver of green under his arm). Deadwind isn't really unknown and I think Blizzard just has no intentions of trying to do something to the zone.

 

Kaejin

Quest:The Battle For The Undercity (Horde) - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
It couldn't really be any clearer unless he outright said "I declare war on the Horde."

After Dragonblight, you have Grizzly Hills where both factions are outright fighting against each other at various locations, and then every other zone has it's own story and somewhat minimal Horde/Alliance presence until Icecrown, where both Gunships are circling the zone and firing on each other, and there are several quests to undermine efforts of the opposing faction for both factions.

The dying Horde and Alliance soldiers at the first gate (where the Horde have assaulted the Alliance) is just another example to show the methods of Garrosh and his supporters. The war itself exists as soon as you leave Dragonblight. Zuldrak, Storm Peaks, and Sholazar are all zones with a very small and secluded presence of the main body of both factions and so the war takes a backseat in those places.

Lets not forget things like Wintergrasp, Strand of the Ancients, and Isle of Conquest. All of these battlegrounds were created with an emphasis on war between the factions.

The meetings between Thrall & Garrosh and Varian & Jaina in Dalaran for Ulduar and ToC for the tourney are both on neutral ground where they were invited by a neutral party. Garrosh is pretty much the only one who doesn't understand that attacking the other side at one of the places is a bad idea.

 

Cobs

Also despite the common enemy and neutral ground mentioned above at the tourney you still have the faction champs fight where both Varian (and I think Garrosh for the alliance equivalent) send in their own troops to fight to the death. Not exactly breaking the armistice but certainly trying to go around it.

 

Itzena

In-game, the second war was two decades ago and the opening of the Dark Portal closer to three, which is essentially a generation ago for the orcs. Tie in the fact that quite a lot of orcs would have died in the wars, plus even more in the aftermath and the receding of the bloodlust (c.f. that conversation Saurfang has with Garrosh in BT)...and then there was another war after that.

Basically, there's not going to be many old orcs left (and the ones still alive are going to mostly be badasses by dint of the fact that they are still alive ).

 

SubtleAmbition

The orcs suffered from hereditary demonic corruption that included everyone in the camps up until Thrall freed them in WC3, the only orcs that would not know of the blood curse and the crimes the orcish race committed while under it's effects would be the children born after the founding of Durotar and the forging of the New Horde. And those who lived in Garadar (who still saw the demonic corruption for themselves, including the fresh demonic corruption of the orcs that fell under Illidan's control.

There is no orcish soldier at this moment (that isn't a brown orc, and even then they should know better) that doesn't have memories of the blood curse. The horde was demonic up through the second war, it's stint in the internment camps, and the Warsong Clan in particular turned uberdemonic in one of the orcs' first engagements in Kalimdor. Orcs don't need to be "old" to have been part of the demonic horde at all.

 

Beefbitesbak

As the above poster says, the brown orcs of Draenor would be all to familliar with the demonicly enhanced fel orcs, their base in HFP is all too close to Magtheridons prison. And hellfire citadel and whatnot.

 

Itzena

I'm not saying that they don't know about it, I'm saying that the majority of the orc race that's alive and active now did not drink demon blood themselves (aside from a few Warsong idiots) and neither were they part of the old Horde that fought the first and second wars.

And, as such, they're liable to be a lot less sympathetic towards the Alliance - less "Well, we did raze their kingdom while tripping on demon blood" and more "I grew up in a prison camp thanks to these guys who then chased us across the ocean when all we wanted to do was leave, and now they're picking a fight?"

 

Vaccine

I think the point is that Thrall and Varian have similar stories (minus the silverspoon upbringing) but they both handled it in such different ways, Thrall bearing it stoically and with understanding knowing that people are what they are and not defined by their race, where Varian sees red when he meets an orc and attacks them at Undercity (well until 3.3 stuff where he's gotten a bit of a character change). I believe that is the root for most players dislike of him, as well as his arguments with Hellscream. Hellscream is high up but Varian is the leader, I think he should have acted with more restraint.

I suppose the difference is the lack of a Taretha style character in Varian's past to show through his prejudice. Also writing out the Horde's involvement in slaying Onyxia and giving it to Varian probably didn't help his popularity.

 

Milney

You ignore some major differences which account for thier massively different outlook of the opposing faction.

Whilst Thrall was imprisoned by Humans, he was also set free through the actions (and sacrifice) of another Human - showing him that there is some compassion in thier race. He was also aware of the corruption of his people, and his search for sustenance through Shamanism helped him accept that the Orcish people were partly to blame for the Humans reactions towards them.

Varian on the other hand would have been told of his fathers assassination at the hands of an Orc (half-orc anyway), seen his lands razed *twice* by them. Then not only having endured all that, was taken prisoner and exploited by, yep, Orcs in gladatorial combat. Unlike Thrall, he was not aided in his escape by an Orc but rather battled his way out (though arguably with help). He didn't get an opportunity to see the conversion of the New Horde to Shamanish - all he was exposed to was the underground arenas which must have evoked alot of memories of the "Old Horde". Not to mention that of course, Humans weren't corrupted and fought in defense of thier homelands, so despite the evil they enacted post War he still feels justified by thier actions rather than the self-flaggelation that Thrall must have felt towards the demonic corruption.

 

Bierzkrieg

We can assume, I think, Varian is a deeply traumatized individual, and I don't necessarily mean he's "mentally unstable" or anything. The point is, he's simply gone through his fair share (to put it nicely) of major problems with orcs. If you analyse his behaviour in the comics, he's gone back in force between making an effort to talk and understand the orcs and going "I knew it, you're all traitorous pigs!"

The meeting with Thrall in Theramore, for example, was going nicely until the Twilight's Hammer crashed in. And, despite a number of gnomes, night elves and neutral races among the attacking party, Varian still went straight for Thrall's throat just because Garona was there. Add to that the fact that he never got to know that the half-orc was under mind control at the time she killed Wrynn's father. Even then, though, he'd probably blame it on orcs being prone to delve on black magic. Right now, he blames orcs for being orcs, hence the apparent resemblance with Garrosh.

So there you have it, someone who's simply too scarred (no pun intended) to actually be able to start anew with the orcs. I applaud Wrynn's attitude at Icecrown towards Saurfang, but sadly believe he'll pop enrage at the next disaggreement with the Horde. This Saurfang episode will hardly make a dent in Garrosh's prejudices, and Varian will never back off in the first place out of good will. We're lucky enough he recognizes Saurfang as somewhat different. Sadly, though, he doesn't give the same credit to Thrall. So, while Varian is miles away from Garrosh as a character - his reasons are understandable - the truth is his death or demotion are vital for peace between the Horde and Alliance. Of course, Garrosh's presence and ruling position are even more troubling.

@Milney: You mean Varian's father's - Llane Wrynn - assassination. Not grandfather.

 

Bierzkrieg

Nice article from Blizzplanet

BlizzPlanet.com - Everything Blizzard Entertainment!

Although it remains to be seen how will Cho'gall defeat a Guardian...that is assuming Med'han dies, but right now, we know the end of the prophecy will come to be - Deathwing will resurface. Could this be a way of introducing an significant character in the comics (Med'han) and yet have him killed so that Thrall can later take the role of Guardian?

Also, MMO-Champ has a short video of two Fel-Blood Elves models which have supposedly got "tweaked" for the Lana'thel encounter. Honestly, I see no differences in them from the TBC appearances. And I'd be very surprised if Blizzard just puts red que'dorei that release green energy and have horns, in Icecrown...while calling them San'layn. They usually avoid these situations in raids, let's hope Icecrown doesn't become a bad exception in any aspect.

 

djanna

@Bierzkrieg: the only difference I found in the model is the vampire-like pointy teeth.

From the audio files of Blood Queen Lanathel, we have "Bite" and "Mind Control" perhaps players are temporarily transformed in vampires with this model?

 

SubtleAmbition

Well that's just dissapointing. You'd think that if Blizzard were going to implement more BC models into LK raids, they would at least mod them a bit more. Gray skin, lose the horns. BAM, San'layn.

Edit: Hm. We might be transformed, at that. There's a lot of interesting fight mechanics in ICC as far as I can tell.

But still. Why red/horns/tinydemonwings?

Maybe they aren't done editing yet. It's a possibility.

 

Bierzkrieg

It can still happen. 3.3's still a couple of months away. We just got Marrowgar's model, for example. That kind of changes - recoloring, mostly, and a new armor, perhaps - doesn't seem too hard. But at least the gray skin seems mandatory.

I didn't remember about the teeth, but now that you mention it, I think those were already there in TBC. Not sure, though

 

Xynen

As long as they don't sparkle in the sun I can accept them in any capacity :-p.

I don't know how I'll feel about a transformation, because it would seem to imply either

A: Lose of player control, or
B: A new ability bar

Neither of which really thrill me, however it could certainly make for an interesting boss fight providing as it doesn't turn into another Prophet Tharon'ja.

 

Exemplar

I should have thought it was obvious that people could become vampires, just based on achievements which popped up weeks ago.

Once Bitten, Twice Shy (10 player)
Once Bitten, Twice Shy (25 player)

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Bierzkrieg

I think everyone assumes that we'll be getting Vampirized, but Xynen brought some good issues up. I too hate the idea of Lana'thel becoming a rich man's Tharon'ja. I'm fine if all we get is a temporary Fel Elf look and stats that allow us to withstand some special attack, Gurtogg-style.

But drake, tharon'ja or general vehicle mechanics just feel awkward for me...

I just checked, she says "Yes, feed, my precious one. You are mine now". This leads me to think the vampire transformation is some kind of mind control. Can it be permanent, and act as a "timer" of sorts, us having to dps her fast enough before half the raid wants to "Suck your vlood, vla!"?

 

Vyra

There are surely plenty of "new" mechanics or novel combinations of older mechanics that could be used for the Vampire thing. I'm not sure how productive it is to speculate on what it will actually be (especially if the boss is eventually tested on the PTR), but my own pet theory would be that you become undead and your resource meter gets replaced by a "blood meter" that is filled by draining living raid members.

The San'layn seem fairly undeveloped as characters (outside the DK starting area), even though they're semiautonomous and fairly high up in the Scourge ranks. It'd be nice to see the Blood Queen (who was essentially invented for 3.3) fleshed out more than the previous princes.

 

Bierzkrieg

She does get a bit more lore-love, check out her involvement in the Quel'delar quest chain. But yes, an interesting concept as a cannibal blood elf deserved some more spotlight during leveling.

 

Leviathon

They always had those teeth. I am unsure why he said the models got changed since they actually haven't been edited at all (compared the live version to PTR).

 

Exemplar

I'm leaning furthest towards a Gorefiend style change. You are transformed into a vampire with unique abilities. Perhaps even the above theorized power-up from feeding on your raid and then use abilities. Simply changing your appearance during a temporary mind-control seems unnecessary, however it could be in the spirit of many Achievements - Do The Wrong Thing. I.e. the equivalent of a "Get MCed on Yogg-Saron" achievement.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Bierzkrieg

Another article in WoW.com on zone changes, and there was a tiny detail I hadn't seen: the entry into Mulgore has been reinforced - by the Tauren themselves. Incidentaly, this seems due to Mojache having been razed by the Alliance. Unfortunately, this still doesn't clarify whether Baine Bloodhoof is more martial minded, is acting under orders from Garrosh, or has his own Lady Prestor in Magatha (arguably less pleasant to the eye). It also doesn't shed any light on Cairne's absence, although I don't think he'll die right away in 3.3. Making assumptions based on artwork is risky, but the piece of him and Thrall rescuing children does hint to the old bull being alive when the Cataclysm takes place.

Still, more and more Garrosh's involvement in an eventual Cairne's death seems implausible. The more Hellscream is connected to stupid or downright evil actions, the more ass-pulled his supposed redemption will seem. I'd certainly like the Horde to take a turn for the worse, with the embodiment of such downturn being the new Warchief, but Blizzard just loves redemptions and falls from grace too much.

The Tauren, though, I'm curious about. What if the Sunwalkers are the next Blood Knights? The tauren who was talking about that in the "Shield Delivery" quest seemed good intentioned, but it'd be easy for such a blooming idea to be manipulated and a new line of "morally grey" warriors (paladins, in this case) to emerge. With the Alliance going Bold-mode, I can see Magatha's ideals gaining weight in the taurean society.