Kirion

One of the most interesting things to me is how they changes zones that listed as unknown. What's up with dark horde, dark irons and Blackrock spire. I also wonder what's the current lore on the Rend Blackhand, is he dead?

I'm wondering mostly because there is a striking resemblance in development of Garrosh's character and the first warchief of the Horde, Blackhand. Just look up for wowwiki entry. And Blackhand was manipulated by Gul'dan and the shadow council...

42.

 

Ptoleman

Like I said, there's nothing illegitimate with those kind of theories in the WoW Universe. They can and do happen. However, they do require us to assume something unnecessary in the face of all evidence, and they can't be verified until after it's happened. That's not the same as speculating, say, how Garrosh will become leader of the Horde. We know he will, and we know its possible in the crazy world of politics, and it doesn't require us to believe that his current man is possessed. Even inside the imagination theories are subject to the scrutiny of simplicity.

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Varian's actions in the Undercity were myopic, not stupid. It's rather hard for outsiders in the Alliance to distinguish between Putress/Varimathras' Forsaken and Sylvanas' Forsaken. Not even Sylvanas' knew of the plots against her, and the issue becomes worse when you consider that Varimathras' and Sylvanas' long-term agendas only differed in loyalty and execution. The Forsaken as a whole still want to wipe everyone out--or at least eliminate anyone who is a serious threat to them--and that qualifies pretty much the entire Alliance, given them every reason to be suspicious and fearful.

Yes, Varian should have been more thoughtful about it and chose a more pragmatic route--fighting Thrall and Sylvanas in those sewers would have caused great harm to both factions regardless of the outcome--but both his and Thrall's actions in the Undercity are totally understandable given what they've been through as individuals and what political/social/cultural contexts they exist in. The factions in the Horde have a bad history of rampaging over planets and killing people. Varian myopically sees what's happened in the Undercity as one in a long, simplistic line of atrocities on the part of the Horde. He's emotionally simplifying a complex issue. Myopic and foolish, but not stupid.

Jeff Goldblum is one of the most powerful units in all of Warcraft.

Stealing Children for the Walrus Men since November 2008.

 

• Spleen

TLDR version: Garrosh went from emo whiner to ubermansch patriot in a short space of time, without significant development. That's why we hate him and rightfully so.

There is little foundation for attentive horde players to really like Garrosh, especially compared to Thrall. Our direct introduction to Garrosh is through The Impotent Leader, where he's described as sitting on his hands and "weeping into the fire."

He basically shat on our efforts at the end of every single quest we turned in to him:

"What does it matter? The Greatmother is dying. Life is not worth living..."

<Garrosh crumples up the map and throws it into the fire.> "What's the use? They've been attacking us for weeks. This is nothing new. Don't you understand? We're done for... Greatmother Geyah is dying."

"Everyone is proud. Proud that our people will live to see another winter. But beyond that? What is there? Maybe you should lead this clan, <name>. Maybe then I will be allowed to die when the Greatmother passes. Allowed to finally erase the shame of my family name. I long for such peace." (The follow-up is equally depressing.)

After brokering peace between Garadar and the Burning Blade, Garrosh has more words of encouragement.

...

Fast-forward to the end of TBC, with the second Scourge Invasion events at the Orgrimmar Arena, where "meathead Garrosh" makes his debut. The belief in orc supremacy and hatred for humans comes out of nowhere, unless it's inferred by the conflicts with the Alliance Expedition. Is the inference blizzard wants us to draw "Garrosh is Grom-lite"?

The familial connection seemed to come with a sense of entitlement, as the challenge to Thrall seemed to be motivated by the reasoning that "my aggressive father was great and did great things for our people, since I am his son I will follow in his footsteps, Thrall is passive and is running the Horde into the ground, therefore I should be leader."

As a quest-giver at Borean Tundra, he chafed under Saurfang and thus continued the trend of being impudent towards characters better liked by the fans. After the near-suicide mission at the Warsong farms, from which Saurfang bails you out unknown to Garrosh, the player is treated to more lip from a character who doesn't appear to actually solve any problems or demonstrate leadership:

"And you returned victorious, just as I thought! I told Saurfang you'd be fine. <Hellscream grunts knowingly.> Perhaps this will show that old dog that he doesn't have all the answers, eh?"

A shining example of nepotism. Maybe blizzard actually wants us to hate the character. By comparison, Thrall had the events of Lord of the Clans, WC3/TFT, and WoW/TBC to bolster his fanbase/vitae. Compared to Garrosh, Varian's a Dostoevsky protagonist- I'm having trouble seeing why people would make the mistake of equivocating the two. Varian's had a lot of development through comics and he was prominent in the Battle for the Undercity event. Regarding his prejudices/politics, I don't see why people have such a problem with grasping the idea that orcs killing his father, razing his kingdom, enslaving him, and making him fight for his life would affect the character's outlook.

All we have about Garrosh are assumptions and party-line positions. No soul, no heart, no development.

Isms and ologies. Give me facts.

 

Leviathon

We discussed that quite a bit when Cataclysm was announced. Made a mockup back then also what I think the new leveling progression path would be based on the other 2 images we had: http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...ysmAzeroth.jpg .

I think it's pretty safe to say that the Badlands will get changed from Deathwings path to Grim Batol along with the Searing Gorge and maybe the Steppes to a lesser degree. All 3 zones though are pretty underused right now and I'd imagine we will see quite a bit changed questing and mob-wise there. With Nefarian back I can see him maybe leading some Dark Horde that are left or just relying on his father for Twilight Dragons and Twilight Cultists. Redridge Mountains is green on that map so it's status isn't unknown (you can see a small sliver of green under his arm). Deadwind isn't really unknown and I think Blizzard just has no intentions of trying to do something to the zone.

 

Kaejin

Quest:The Battle For The Undercity (Horde) - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
It couldn't really be any clearer unless he outright said "I declare war on the Horde."

After Dragonblight, you have Grizzly Hills where both factions are outright fighting against each other at various locations, and then every other zone has it's own story and somewhat minimal Horde/Alliance presence until Icecrown, where both Gunships are circling the zone and firing on each other, and there are several quests to undermine efforts of the opposing faction for both factions.

The dying Horde and Alliance soldiers at the first gate (where the Horde have assaulted the Alliance) is just another example to show the methods of Garrosh and his supporters. The war itself exists as soon as you leave Dragonblight. Zuldrak, Storm Peaks, and Sholazar are all zones with a very small and secluded presence of the main body of both factions and so the war takes a backseat in those places.

Lets not forget things like Wintergrasp, Strand of the Ancients, and Isle of Conquest. All of these battlegrounds were created with an emphasis on war between the factions.

The meetings between Thrall & Garrosh and Varian & Jaina in Dalaran for Ulduar and ToC for the tourney are both on neutral ground where they were invited by a neutral party. Garrosh is pretty much the only one who doesn't understand that attacking the other side at one of the places is a bad idea.

 

Cobs

Also despite the common enemy and neutral ground mentioned above at the tourney you still have the faction champs fight where both Varian (and I think Garrosh for the alliance equivalent) send in their own troops to fight to the death. Not exactly breaking the armistice but certainly trying to go around it.

 

Itzena

In-game, the second war was two decades ago and the opening of the Dark Portal closer to three, which is essentially a generation ago for the orcs. Tie in the fact that quite a lot of orcs would have died in the wars, plus even more in the aftermath and the receding of the bloodlust (c.f. that conversation Saurfang has with Garrosh in BT)...and then there was another war after that.

Basically, there's not going to be many old orcs left (and the ones still alive are going to mostly be badasses by dint of the fact that they are still alive ).

 

SubtleAmbition

The orcs suffered from hereditary demonic corruption that included everyone in the camps up until Thrall freed them in WC3, the only orcs that would not know of the blood curse and the crimes the orcish race committed while under it's effects would be the children born after the founding of Durotar and the forging of the New Horde. And those who lived in Garadar (who still saw the demonic corruption for themselves, including the fresh demonic corruption of the orcs that fell under Illidan's control.

There is no orcish soldier at this moment (that isn't a brown orc, and even then they should know better) that doesn't have memories of the blood curse. The horde was demonic up through the second war, it's stint in the internment camps, and the Warsong Clan in particular turned uberdemonic in one of the orcs' first engagements in Kalimdor. Orcs don't need to be "old" to have been part of the demonic horde at all.

 

Beefbitesbak

As the above poster says, the brown orcs of Draenor would be all to familliar with the demonicly enhanced fel orcs, their base in HFP is all too close to Magtheridons prison. And hellfire citadel and whatnot.

 

Itzena

I'm not saying that they don't know about it, I'm saying that the majority of the orc race that's alive and active now did not drink demon blood themselves (aside from a few Warsong idiots) and neither were they part of the old Horde that fought the first and second wars.

And, as such, they're liable to be a lot less sympathetic towards the Alliance - less "Well, we did raze their kingdom while tripping on demon blood" and more "I grew up in a prison camp thanks to these guys who then chased us across the ocean when all we wanted to do was leave, and now they're picking a fight?"