Given Tauren in the Argent Dawn/Crusade, it is likely that a handful of Tauren are trying out e.g. holy magic, but those few wouldn't be enough to justify playable Tauren light wielders. Creating a new class inside is a good way to have a new aspect, without spreading the classes too wide gameplay-wise. A thought that crossed my mind half an hour ago: what about "monk", e.g. for Humans or, if only in your fantasy slash private server, Pandaren? The monk as a "melee with healing capabilities" is very similar to the shaman or paladin, sans elemental and prot, and the armor classes don't fit.

As I've said before, WoW religion is merely philosophy. They're all tapping the same "Light" and all have explanations where it comes from.

Night Elves gain Holy magic for their priests from Elune. Whether Elune created the "Light" which they tap into, or is merely another name for it is moot. They worship Elune directly and it doesn't hamper the "Light".

Paladins gain Holy magic directly from "The Light." Whether it's an independent source of power, the byproduct/creation of a God/Titan/Naaru/whatever is moot. They worship it directly. Even Blood Elves do so, now. During BC they "commanded" the "Light" by draining it directly from a Naaru. Again, whether the Naaru created "Light" energy directly, was a conduit for it, or a sentient representation of it is moot.

Other Priests appear to believe in the same "Light" as Paladins.

So, if the Taurens decide they believe in the light-giving sun as a God who can grant power, same difference. They can receive the "Light of the Sun" directly from their God.

A 21st Century citizen can use electricity and call it that.
A 17th Century citizen could use electricity and likely would call it "harnessed lightning" or some such.
A 3rd Century citizen could use electricity and would call it magic.

What you believe and what you call it don't necessarily have a bearing on what it is.

Tauren Priests and Paladins using Holy spells don't have to be a "gameplay overriding lore" situation. Shadow Priests no more so - you cannot have a shadow without light. The Sun happens to be a very obvious source of "Light" to the world.

For all we know, Bob the God of Gumbo, Orangutans, Shyness, and Healing energy is really annoyed that everyone on Azeroth calls his gifts Holy or Light. He'd do something about it, but he's too shy.

I think you're right...only the other way around. Meaning they use different kinds of light-energy, but it's the game that gives them the same name and looks.

We know the Naaru exist and are the source of the Holy Light, we know Elune exists - unless it was a Naaru that had a son with Malorne. I don't think you can use the real life logic of "All the gods, Buddha, God, Allah, etc are interpretations of one and the same deity" because, really, in Warcraft, Word of God (no pun intended) states there are indeed different gods. They have been seen by mortals (Naaru), stood beside them, died, etc. So, for example, while Tauren call Elune something different than what the Night Elves do, I think we can assume Elune's light is not the same energy the Naaru employ, hence she is a different entity. Tauren themselves don't really dispute the fact that they and the night elves worship the same thing - the moon - for all we know.

PS: Calling a Naaru "god" may be exaggerated, but they are, after all, the source of a type of energy that is given to worshipers. So...

Also, to add to the poster above me, that logic doesn't work with all classes - Blood Elf paladins originally stole their energy from a Naaru directly. Human and Dwarf Paladins drew their energy from an unknown source merely by faith. They had never even heard of a Naaru. You can't really say those were the same thing.

Also take priests. Almost each one is entirely seperate. Human and Dwarf priests worship along the same lines as Human/Dwarf paladins. But Night elf priests worship the Moon Goddess, Elune, which is almost certainly very different from the light. Undead priests worship the forgotten shadow, which can be seen as the polar opposite of the holy light. Troll priests are also on an entirely seperate field, practicing voodooism and the like.

When discussing the lore of a video game, the in-game lore must trump all other sources. No matter how much you prefer some fan or author-written alternative, if something contradicts the game, it's the game that's canon and not the other source. This is the same concept as Star Trek or Star Wars novels... if a novel contradicts the show or movies, it's the novel that's wrong no matter how much you may like it.

With this simple principle in mind, it's clear that the person you were responding to is correct. All Holy Priests use the power of the Holy Light, even Night Elf ones. NEs may believe said power flows from Elune, but who is to say Elune cannot be a conduit of the Holy Light? Druids of any stripe don't use the Holy Light, they use the power of Nature. NE Druids revere Elune, but they don't think Elune is the source of their power.

Therefore, Tauren Paladins and Priests may well revere or worship the Sun aspect of the Earth Mother, but they will still be using the Holy Light.

The way I see it, neither of them are actually substituting the Light. They're actually three different ways of harnessing the same source of power (the Light). Or kinda like how all the major religions today have quite different customs, traditions and rituals, but their end goal is the same - giving their worshipers a sense of spiritual accomplishment.

If I may make a more technologically inclined analogy, it's like converting water into electricity (since electricity has already been used as an example, but not quite in the way I was thinking), depending on the water sources available to you. You could just store a massive amount of water and let its sheer weight fall onto the generators if you've got a massive river, like, say the Nile, you could use a relatively poor flow of water and let its speed power the generators if all you've got is mountain rapids, or you could just use the low and high tides to power the generator alternatively if you're stuck on the coast.

That actually sounds like a really good arguement, until we take a look at your premise.

That is where you are wrong, 100%. In a MMO, lore is often bent and changed to suit gameplay. If gameplay was balanced around lore, then we probably wouldn't be playing this game as it would be wildly imbalanced. There is no direct storytelling medium in a MMO as there is with a campaign driven game like Warcraft 3. Are you honestly going to tell me that Troll priests that spec holy actually believe or USE the holy light? Do you really think Undead are able to channel the holy light in any way? Blizzard written lore via comics, novels, books, and campaign driven games are much more reliable than ingame WoW lore.

Plus, when Blizzard says things like "We allowed for Goblin and Worgen Death Knights because, honestly, it's fun" (not the exact words, but this is what they meant), you know the game doesn't drive the lore forward. Things like the Wrathgate are an exception.

PS: No sarcasm intended on the Goblin and Worgen Death Knights thingy.

No "Blizzard written" lore contradicts anything I've said. The entire idea that Forsaken can't access the Light comes from WoWWiki (perhaps originally from the decidedly non-canon RPG books), not from any Blizzard source. In-game, there are many Forsaken who work with the Holy Light, including NPCs. The Forsaken contingent of the Argent Crusade is not limited to the one guy in LHC anymore, they're all over Northrend. There is no in-game source whatsoever to suggest that Forsaken cannot access the Light, and several direct contradictions of that idea. It's absurd to hold on to a concept from WoWWiki or outdated-and-never-canon-to-start-with RPG books when in-game lore directly contradicts it. Similarly, yes, Troll Holy Priests do access and venerate the Light. Why shouldn't they? Although in this case, the majority of in-game lore seems to suggest 99% of Troll Priests are Shadow Priests, as pointed out by someone else the existence of Shadow implies the existence of Light.

When you're talking about the lore of a video game, to claim that the in-game lore is secondary to other sources strikes me as patently absurd. Obviously WarCraft III, being a video game predecessor to WoW, counts as "in-game lore," but other than that? Any time the game contradicts Knaak, it's Knaak that's in the wrong.

EDIT at above: Blizzard also said in-game lore allows for Goblin and Worgen DKs, but people weren't happy with that explanation so they said "shut up it's fun." The in-game explanation (which I am perfectly satisfied with) is that there were plenty of Goblins killed by the Scourge and raised as DKs, and the Worgen DKs come from Grizzly Hills. The Grizzly Hills Worgen are clearly the same kind as player Worgen will be: they retain their humanity and only transform when injured in combat or when they desire. This is all based on in-game sources. The "it's fun" line came as a way of saying "look, we don't care if you don't like the explanation, we're not arguing with you about it."

Blizzard itself doesn't treat the game as the major lore source, why do you? Actually, the wowwiki's source for the Forsaken-Holy Light connection (or rather lack of) are the RPG Books - which are supposedly Blizzard-approved and are meant to let players know these little details on races, classes and other aspects of the Warcraft universe. The books state that, for the most part, Forsaken can't deal with the Light, but that a few exceptional individuals have been able to. I guess you can treat players and forsaken priest-trainers as those individuals, but it still doesn't make the whole race as proficient with the Light as, say, humans, not to mention draenei. I'm not even sure the forsaken champion at LHC is a paladin, he could be a warrior - sorry if this has been clarified before.

So, even though Onyxia has been killed by Varian Wrynn and his party in the comics, you assume she's been downed by 40 heroes, lorewise?

I don't believe that that argument is always valid for games, and especially for MMOs. A ridiculous amount of things in this game don't make sense lore-wise simply because they have to work for game play reasons. You can't take game play elements and call them canon when they pretty obviously are only the way they are because of technical limitations or whatever.

It's pretty clear that WoW's lore as an MMO is only canon until they decide how they actually want things to be. Varian Wrynn killed Onyxia? Darion and some random nobodies stormed level 60 Naxxramus? Yeah. Pretty sure it was actually a raid of 40 random nobodies who did those things first, but then they wrote the WoW comic and adapted the game to follow the real lore a little closer.

Blizzard is pretty big on novels and comics and what have you being official lore for their franchises. Metzen and their lore team are closely involved with most things produced because they almost always have the intention of saying "yes, this is canon."

The only reason those RPG books are no longer canon is because they were made so long ago. Almost everything in them has been retconned. It used to be the word, it's just not anymore.

Even if that were some general rule of thumb, no everyone is going to follow it. It's pretty clear Blizzard doesn't.

Not necessarily.

"The Light" could exist as a discrete power source. Who created it, how, and why - who knows.

Naaru do not generate "The Light." They either feed on it (in a benign fashion, like plants and photosynthesis, not like carnivores or vampires) and store it, or naturally tap its energies. When the Blood Elves dominated "The Light" they drained it directly from a Naaru. This is like drawing electricity from a wall socket - the wall socket doesn't create it, it was merely the end of the conduit that started way back at the power company.

Remember, we don't even know what a God IS in Warcraft, merely that they exist. Elune physically exists somehow/somewhere, as Cenarius was literally her child. And he ran around and was killed by orcs (not assigning any blame to them, simply a fact from WCIII).

Back to Elune - she's the moon Goddess. Or possibly the moon itself. Or both. Gods are like that. What is moonlight? Reflected sunlight. So her being a conduit of "the Light" (wherever the hell it may derive) is reasonable. It's also reasonable that she single-handedly created "the Light", and some other races mistakenly worship it, rather than her (reference Uncle Screwtape and his discussion of getting people to worship the cross or a direction, rather than God directly), or finally that she creates "the Light" as do other Gods (or other beings) and this pool of "Light" is communally tapped by those who Worship Elune, Naaru, those who worship it directly, etc.

If the Forsaken can't handle "the Light" (get out of the kitchen?), then they've found some alternate, yet equivalent source. Or perhaps, going back to the electricity analogy, an AC to DC converter. Something which processes it into a usable format for them.

I can pay you 100 sesterce an hour to do your job.
I can give 300 sesterce an hour to someone else and have them pay you 100/hr to do your job.
I can write a check for 100,000 talents to a company, have them convert 50,000 talents for 10,000 sesterce at the bank, then electronically transfer those 10,000 to a branch office, where they assign a coordinator 500 sesterce, and this coordinator hires an independent contractor (you) for 100 sesterce.
You wind up with the same money and can utilize it in the same fashion. Why should using "the Light" for magical purposes need to be any different?

P.S. I'm specifically avoiding "Holy Light" as a compound phrase, because it's also specifically a Paladin healing spell. "The Light" as a concept is a power source, religious or not. It provides "Holy"-type power.

The problem is Blizzard picks and chooses what counts as canon from the comics, rpg books, the 3 prior games and the MMO. I would argue that the MMO has most of the non-canon, especially in regards to Holy Wielders. As I said earlier, the Tauren "Paladins" are more then likely called Paladins because of the game. It would do blizzard no good to make another plate/holy wielding class named "Sunwalkers" for the Tauren. I'm willing to bet that they will never be referred to as "Paladins" with the sole exception of Quest based <name> <class> sections.

This can be argued by the fact that originally, all priests were given specific racial powers. These gift were given to them by their different gods and beliefs. The Troll priest quest even mentions that though Trolls are part of the horde, their priests still honor the "old ways" which would mean the all priests having the same spells is merely a game mechanic. So far as I can tell, Zabra Hex is the only troll priest who hears the call of "The Light".

Double post due to strange browser errors. I apologize for the clutter.

Don't forget that Thrall's armor and his whole look are essentially placeholders, as each major lore NPC that was in the game at launch has been undergoing extensive makeovers recently...Sylvanas and Jaina for example. I would expect a large graphic makeover of Thrall soon, which may fundamentally alter the armor he's wearing (it can still be Doomhammer's armor, but Blizz probably wouldn't have qualms about re-doing what Doomhammer looked like in the first place).

Doomhammer is actually in the files and looks like how it did in Warcraft 3 during the Mannoroth cinematic but for some reason they never put it in game. I won't be surprised if he gives the armor to Garrosh though in Cataclysm.

PTR was updated today opening Halls of Reflection and adding the Icecrown music. Here is the music for those interested. MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Some Lich King voiceovers added. I have added the main ones other than the voiceovers for skills he does or the voiceovers for the things we already know (such as when you enter Icecrown).

Halls of Reflection

Alliance Aggro: Your allies have arrived Jaina, just as you promised. *laughter* You will all become powerful agents of the Scourge!

Horde Aggro: I will not make the same mistake again Sylvanas, this time there will be no escape. You will all serve me in death!

Dungeon Finale: *Laughter* No where to run, you're mine now!

In response to Jaina wondering if Arthas is still there: Foolish girl you seek that which I killed long ago. He is merely a ghost now, a faint echo in my mind.

Lana'thel and Marrowgars models have received their finishing touches.

I’m not so sure about them changing Doomhammer’s armour. We did clearly see Thrall wearing it in the lore-driven Ulduar cinematic, (in fact I imagine that when they do this model revamp that Thrall, Garrosh and Jaina will have their models updated to look like the cinematic ones). But Garrosh could certainly inherit Doomhammer’s Armour if/when he becomes Warchief, he is wearing that fur-lined Northrend plate gear at the moment that I’m sure will be too hot for Orgrimmar :P

edit for spelling

It's not unreasonable to assume that. It also might infer greater responsibility upon him, even Garrosh must have some respect for the legends that he will have heard about Doomhammer.

I'm going to have to disagree with the other parts about spikes and chains but I seem to be in the minority so I won't argue the point. I'll just say that sometimes a spike is just a spike that the model designer thought looked cool, and not a symbol of deep rooted evil or psychological instability. Especially in the Horde who as we pointed out last time this came up have always had spiked buildings and armour dating back long before the MMO.

The other part I'd disagree with is that plain armour equates to primal aspects/ferocity etc.. which seems made up on the spot. In pretty much every fantasy text I've read, plain armour tended to point to a seasoned veteran that realised drawing attention to himself on the battlefield was not a good idea. Often the point is made by the author that the simple armour is well made and sturdy where as the flash gold gilded stuff is unwieldy or of lesser protection. But that said, Garrosh's armour doesn't even look plain to my eyes, looks like it could be some DK tier set or something.

Hmm...Two very suspicious lines. Could Jaina have, through her neverending infatuation and eternal hope in Arthas' redemption, been passing information to the Lich King, even inadvertedly? Or is Arthas just messing with us?

As to the second line, either Ner'zhul's still in command, or the fusion of him and Arthas created an entirely new entity. Slightly confusing, if we take in consideration the scene in Rise of the Lich King where Arthas impales his "kid-self" and Ner'zhul (in his mind).

Vaccine, you're thinking like you were inside the WoW universe and characters could actually make their own decisions and come to their own conclusions. Of course a veteran might prefer plain armour in order to hide his skills. But that's because the author intends it to. I know this is an easy point to bring to the discussion, but in a fictional universe, characters' personalities and actions derive from only a few minds. The developers'. And Warcraft's supposed to be exaggerated, it' about (among all the other things) great artifacts, legendary items and it has symbolism everywhere. Varian's armor changing once he fuses with his other self is symbolic, Thrall donning Doomhammer's armor is symbolic. It's all intended, even if it's intended not to seem...intended. If it's made out to feel "natural" and logical. Please name one character who's good and has a menacing armor. Spikes don't make "evil" by themselves, of course it's all coupled with a character's personality. Saurfang's armor in Warsong Hold has spikes. Wore by him (and assuming one knows something about Saurfang), you know it's meant to look serious and sober. You'll argue it's just an armor Blizzard pulled out to replace the one he gave to his son. Then why didn't they choose Tier 5? Or Dreadnaught armor, widely considered the best-looking for warriors?

Saying a character's looks say nothing about him is, I'm sorry to say, completely disregarding the fact this isn't a realistic game. 90% of the game's armours would never have existed in the real world. Artists ALWAYS draw the armors and outfits according to a character's personality. The exception is when story enforces a certain status quo on the character, such as enlisting an army or being stranded (like Lo'gosh), etc. But you can count on such a character changing "clothes" as soon as he's fully revealed in all it's independence and abilities.

In fantasy, an artist's work is all about conveying an idea, be it personality or situation. But with relevant characters, it's always symbolic. Look at Overlord Agmar and his covered face, something uncommon (not unique) among Horde leaders. Wyrmbane from the 7th Legion also has his face covered, but that's intended to convey not menace and faceless obedience ("His [Garrosh's] word is life and his word is death", by Agmar), but professionalism and Wyrmbane viewing himself as a soldier and not some grand general.

You can't counter my claim on Garrosh's armor being "plain" with it being "a DK starter set recolored". One doesn't exclude the other. What I meant was that it was a crude design, and it goes with his axes (which are anything but elaborate). It's true, it's far less distinct a design (even if it's because it's so widely used) than Doomhammer's. And that lack of uniqueness is meaningful.

I see your point, and I know all this talk on the artists' and developers' intentions may seem like it ignores the characters' personalities. It doesn't, at least that's not my intention. What I mean is that artists and the lore folks do put themselves in the characters' mind...but then have to go back to theirs and the audience's and emphasize (even by simplifying) said characters' mindset through visuals. They're called artists for a reason. Because, in art, everything really tends to mean something.

I understood it that way that Jaina/Sylvanas somehow get captured at the beginning of the dungeon, and we rush to free them - Jaina taunted that we would come to save her

As far as I was spoilered the contents of the book (I have to buy it soon) both Ner'zhul and Arthas don't exist anymore as distinguishable entities, there is only the Lich King.

Ah, right, there was something in the last quest of Halls of Reflections that spoke of finding the missing lady (Sylvannas or Jaina).

Edit: Agree, the "birth" of a new entity seems reasonable. We can assume, then, that Ner'zhul's mind has also been pushed back, or was that "dream" a consequence of Arthas trying to maintain some individuality, whereas Ner'zhul fully embraced the merging?

Edit 2: Pure gold doesn't begin to describe it. Arthas sound files found.

Patch 3.3 PTR: Lich King audio files mined from latest build