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Old 11/23/09, 3:01 PM   #6826
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
Moreover, it would most definitely feel like a cop out. Good storytellers don't have to completely reset their world/universe/story in order to continue forward. It's the fallback of the irresponsible or the lazy, and while sometimes necessary it always stands as a black mark against those who used the plot device.
Unfortunately, of late WoW has been succumbing to what hit Star Wars almost as soon as they gave writers reign (early-mid 90s). Star Wars had the Death Star... so writers of course had to top this with a yet more devastating weapon - destroy entire star systems at a go, or more!

WoW is escalating power similarly. Algalon was potentially world destroying if he'd sent Omega. Arthas in full command of his powers and minions could scour all life on the planet. Cataclysm's going to have Deathwing out to do... something. I'm not sure what the heck Deathwing actually wants to do. Barring that, there's some Titan Superweapon. Blizzard's own term: Superweapon.

It's getting to the disconnect level: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Less statistics, more tragedies, please.

I'd love to see something crafted on a more personal scale. Someone/something that wants to destroy a specific town/religion/whatever. A small scale of personal revenge or spite. Defending named people we actually care about. Rather than Saving The World(TM). Again.

If they have to use Re-origination at some point, I'd prefer the move the plot along with it, not use it as a giant reset button. However that is simply personal preference (and hoping they avoid copping out).

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/23/09, 6:37 PM   #6827
Ukerric
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Dalaran (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
... they're running out of bad guys pretty swiftly so having a backup is always a bonus, and I like WoW made bad guys better than previous lore ones.
They still have a good stock of Bad Guys®. We get Deathwing this expansion. We still have at least:
- Azshara (who is not heavily featured in this expansion)
- An Old God involved in the Nightmare (which can be a secondary plot to Azshara, or a full-fledged expansion)
- Ner'zhul (who, I'll remind you, escapes, leaving Arthas to die, according to the hints we got)
- The End of the Dragon Age (blues - over, Aspect of Magic replaced... black over, see Cataclysm... green, over, see Nightmare... you have Bronze and Red still remaining, which makes for a good expansion overall theme. You already have the Infinite Dragonflight as the established bad guys, and, despite their benevolence, the red's fall isn't going to be nice and smooth either)
- The Legion at home / Sargeras himself.

So, that's at least 5 expansions including Cataclysm, potentially six. With just existing obvious targets. At 18 months per expansion.

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Old 11/23/09, 8:01 PM   #6828
Enova
Great Tiger
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
WoW is escalating power similarly. Algalon was potentially world destroying if he'd sent Omega. Arthas in full command of his powers and minions could scour all life on the planet. Cataclysm's going to have Deathwing out to do... something. I'm not sure what the heck Deathwing actually wants to do. Barring that, there's some Titan Superweapon. Blizzard's own term: Superweapon.
Since we don't exactly know what his end game is, it would be nice if we were to find out that Deathwing actually wanted to get to the Titan superweapon only destroy the said superweapon to prevent it getting into the hands of the likes of our resident berzerkers, Vrynn and Garrosh. It might make a nice twist to storm Deathwing's citadel, secure it halfway, only for Deathwing to activate the self destruct sequence when he's close to defeat, and kick the bucket with a content grin on his face, and maybe with a 'I'm impressed, I didn't think you insects could handle a fair fight' line.

Originally Posted by XI- View Post
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
You people are idiots
Guilty as charged ^

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Old 11/23/09, 9:12 PM   #6829
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
Deathwing seeking to prevent the discovery of a weapon potentially capable of ruining either his shit or his plans, I could easily see. If he wanted to keep it out of the hands of Varian or Garrosh -- which I doubt, since he doesn't give a shit about individuals if they don't factor into his plans -- he could just bury and/or torch everything.

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Old 11/23/09, 10:15 PM   #6830
Enova
Great Tiger
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Well, yeah, if it's all that powerful, it's going to ruin Daethwing's day regardless of who it's aimed at. And right now, I'm sure even he's aware who are the only two numbskulls on Azeroth who would be tingling in their plates at the thought of 'the biggest weapon ever'

Originally Posted by XI- View Post
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
You people are idiots
Guilty as charged ^

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Old 11/24/09, 1:08 AM   #6831
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
I'm still waiting on the "Big Bad" that recognizes that the heroes of Azeroth are basically immortal gods that can beat Dragon Aspects, Powerful Demons, Undead Gods, Old Gods, Titans, etc and approach an invasion/attack knowing as such, something along the lines of:

"I already know I can't beat you, and through some cosmic joke(METZEN!!!!) fighting you directly would result in my own demise, so as such I'll go this route." And said route ruins our day/world.

Deathwing & Kil'Jaeden were my prime candidates for such action, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything but the normal loot pinatas we're used to at this point.

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Old 11/24/09, 1:21 AM   #6832
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Having a villain who's real power only comes from his cunning would be good story-wise, but I'm not sure it would easily fit into an MMO and Blizzard's philosophy on how to run WoW.

I really doubt anything we can't hit with a stick by the end of an expansion is going to work it's way in.

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Old 11/24/09, 1:25 AM   #6833
Starfire
Honorary Toastr
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
Well, Kil'Jaeden is still alive, and after being foiled a few times... I can see another expansion in which Kil'Jaeden lays siege. Perhaps even an expansion in which Outlands/Draenor gets freshened up.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 11/24/09, 5:14 AM   #6834
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
I was shocked Kil'Jaeden stuck his neck out long enough for it to almost be chopped off. Historically this was a villain that knew better then to show himself or play his hand directly. Especially considering what happened to Archimonde, the same thing almost happened to him, and he's much, much smarter then Archimonde was, hence my loot pinata comment.

Side-topic, but a friend of mine claimed that the same voice actor that did Archimonde in WC3 did his voice in WoW for the CoT: Mount Hyjal that can't be true can it? I find this very hard to believe considering Archimonde in Hyjal is the worst voice for any boss or NPC in the game ever, and Archimonde in WC3 sounded wonderfully sex and evil.

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Old 11/24/09, 6:34 AM   #6835
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
Well, people get better at what they do...=p After listening to both's sound files, the voices seem pretty distinct but, then again, that's why they use voice actors. It could just really be a case of "it went wrong this time, period".

Kil'jaeden's appearance is not that far fetched. For once, he'd have to make a move, at some point. So, while Azeroth's heroes were occupied storming the Black Temple, his servant, Kael'thas, started working on a portal - the Sunwell - for his master and other demons to come to this world (although, in retrospective, shouting "Glory to Kil'Jaeden, outright denouncing his affiliation and intentions, might not have been smart...meh, elven grandeur). So he had an army of blood elves and demons halting the Shattered Sun's advance, and had got some of his most important lieutenants out - Brutallus, the Twin Eredars, etc. He'd overpowered the Sunwell's defenders (Kalec) and captured the very essence of the pool.

It's really not a bad time for him (who is a freaking demigod probably capable of going full-on against a dragon aspect) to make an appearance. Give us heroes some credit. We just got there in the nick of time and did everything right.

Plus, he's a demon and an eredar at that. He's half power and half ego. His desire to surpass Sargeras is sure to have influenced his actions a good deal. Which is strange. Should Sargeras regain his form someday, Kil'Jaeden would probably be forced to be his master's Illidan - hiding in a single planet, unable to get out (the dark titan would be hard pressed not to vaporize him on the spot and would certainly subdue him and take what Kil'Jaeden conquered to himself). In that sense, yes, Kil'Jaeden should've been more careful - with what he said.

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Old 11/24/09, 6:50 AM   #6836
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
Interviews

Metzen on the Bridenbrad questline in Northrend, kind of touching. Rob Bridenbecker's take on it is below as well.

My favorite personal moment, in terms of just playing the games, has to be a quest line that we constructed in Northrend and unrelated to the main story. It involved an Argent Crusader who had contracted the plague, the scourge, and he was dying and the heroes wanted to see if they could save this man who was so noble and had served with such distinction.The quest line was actually originally based on one of our buddies here Rob Bridenbecker had his brother pass away, his brother Bradley from cancer. And we wanted to do something for Rob and just honor his brother and just rally around the family a little bit. So Alex Afrasiabi and I came up with this story line that would have players go and interact with the great world powers: The Red Dragonflight, the druids, and the angelic Naaru of Outland. And one by one, as the player went to these people and asked for help to save this noble soul it becomes clear that death will be inevitable. But the nobility that “Bridenbrad” exhibited really spoke to us and even in the face of all this darkness and the Scourge within this fiction, the nobility of the human spirit is very, very powerful and I love that the quest line felt so emotional, especially the point where Bridenbrad is going out, there is no saving this man, and the way that Alex handled the end of the sequence where the Naaru come down and, essentially, beam him up and whisk him away to some unseen paradise was very satisfying to me from a story angle and from a personal angle. I talked to Rob Bridenbecker about it after the fact and he was really touched and he even showed his dad, his family and maybe it even helped a little bit in their grief...this goofy, video game thing... It was just such a great moment for me fictionally and, more importantly, personally... that sometimes this clumsy craft of making video games and things can sing beyond the game itself, beyond the gameplay itself and really touch people and I get a huge kick out of that.

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Old 11/24/09, 7:26 AM   #6837
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
This will sound like fanboyism, but, sometimes, I'm thankful for these guys. I know every game developer puts a little of themselves in almost any game they develop, and all of them like their projects. But then Blizzard tops probably everyone else at that by immersing their community not only in the game but in the company as well.

Sure, there's profit, there's the product's continuous growth and there are formal aspects. But like in every other "relationship" or group in life, it's in the resulting compromise between duties and rights between members of said relationship/group that you find out whether there's true care and commitment. Don't let this sound "lovish", it's actually valid for every kind of interaction between individuals.

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Old 11/24/09, 9:22 AM   #6838
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
I'd love to see something crafted on a more personal scale. Someone/something that wants to destroy a specific town/religion/whatever. A small scale of personal revenge or spite. Defending named people we actually care about. Rather than Saving The World(TM). Again.
Well that's where other worlds come into play, taking care of regional conflicts and the occasional demon attack. They just cannot do that on Azeroth, though, at least not in the known zones, which can be considered rather "safe".
Cataclysm by itself is ok, but a repeat of this concept just gets boring.

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Old 11/24/09, 10:14 AM   #6839
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
I'm still waiting on the "Big Bad" that recognizes that the heroes of Azeroth are basically immortal gods that can beat Dragon Aspects, Powerful Demons, Undead Gods, Old Gods, Titans, etc and approach an invasion/attack knowing as such, something along the lines of:

"I already know I can't beat you, and through some cosmic joke(METZEN!!!!) fighting you directly would result in my own demise, so as such I'll go this route." And said route ruins our day/world.

Deathwing & Kil'Jaeden were my prime candidates for such action, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything but the normal loot pinatas we're used to at this point.
Dive back into shades of grey. How much better if we could be built up to fight, but it's all been propaganda. Here are some spins as example. What if the Vrykul (or just some of them) weren't in league with Arthas, but he paraded about and made it look like Ymiron was his henchman. We'd want to take down Ymiron in our ignorance. Or if the Worgen in Grizzly Hills were benevolent, but a few planted spies cause us to get the whole "They bite you, you go cannibalistic evil" impression.

By the time we "see the light" we've antagonized this third party and gone too far. Even if we now want peace, they no longer want it. So we've created our own enemy and are now forced to fight them. Have some leader handwringing and all, but feeling (s)he has to send us in and destroy them where they live before they can attack us.

This would avoid messy "We found out they're really not bad in next content patch, why do we go back and farm them for achievements?" issues.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/24/09, 10:18 AM   #6840
Liebestod
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
I'm still waiting on the "Big Bad" that recognizes that the heroes of Azeroth are basically immortal gods that can beat Dragon Aspects, Powerful Demons, Undead Gods, Old Gods, Titans, etc and approach an invasion/attack knowing as such, something along the lines of:

"I already know I can't beat you, and through some cosmic joke(METZEN!!!!) fighting you directly would result in my own demise, so as such I'll go this route." And said route ruins our day/world.

Deathwing & Kil'Jaeden were my prime candidates for such action, but it doesn't seem like they'll be anything but the normal loot pinatas we're used to at this point.
Heh, I still remember the speculation about Ulduar, that maybe we'd end up working for Yogg-Saron rather than killing him. It would've been pretty awesome. Alas, WoW villains just aren't that genre savvy.

There was that troll that managed to get players to revive Hakkar, however. Wonder if we'll ever see him again.

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Old 11/24/09, 10:54 AM   #6841
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
There was also Drakuru, as well as the quest where you killed a Blue Flight sargeant that was in fact still in league with your faction and trying to undermine the blues' plans. Both minor examples, perhaps (although Drakuru's quite significant for the drakkari trolls).

In my view, almost all villains take "the other route", to some extent. Onyxia was mind-controlling the whole Stormwind court (she forgot the child-prince, the stupid bitch); Kil'Jaeden didn't have much freedom of choice, as demons require a large source of energy to enter worlds and as such, make too much noise and pyrotechnics to really be discrete - Kael'thas, though, did some pretty good undermining and plotting; Ner'zhul used infiltration tactics extensively, until the point when he pretty much had the upper hand in almost every zone where the Scourge was present; Deathwing, through Cho'gall, is restructuring the Twilight's Hammer, has the Twilight Flight, we'll see what else; Yogg Saron influenced almost a whole continent, to some extent, and turned his prison (built by Titans!) into his stronghold, making the Titan's guardians his lapdogs, in the process.

The problem is, for a main enemy to be able to keep a low profile, he'd have to be rather underpowered. Ner'zhul, as the Lich King, was able to do so because he was unexpected, but only until a certain point. Once his army became big enough, he pretty much went cadaverou-steamroll on every opponent. So, if for example, a "regular army" suddendly showed up on Azeroth, led by someone whose power or ability are no greater than Wrynn's or Jaina's, then what would stop us from simply gathering a strike team and teleporting to his location, like Khadgar did with Medihv?

Some kind of uber strategist, someone who's always ahead of us could be the answer, but I'm guessing it would eventually just become frustrating, being thwarted at every single attempt. True, onslaught opponents like the Legion get boring pretty fast. All in all, I'd say the Scourge did it best.

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Old 11/24/09, 2:43 PM   #6842
Ukerric
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Dalaran (EU)
Originally Posted by Liebestod View Post
There was that troll that managed to get players to revive Hakkar, however. Wonder if we'll ever see him again.
As you confront him, near the end of the Hakkar questline, Yeh'kinya changes into a winged serpent named "Spirit of Jin'do" and flees across the sea (supposedly toward Stranglethorn, I presume), if my memory is right.

And guess who: Jin'do the Hexxer.

So no, we won't see him again.

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Old 11/24/09, 3:52 PM   #6843
Terraburn
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Ukerric View Post
- Ner'zhul (who, I'll remind you, escapes, leaving Arthas to die, according to the hints we got)
Where exactly are the hints for this?

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Old 11/24/09, 4:21 PM   #6844
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
The hint was only that Arthas would die while the Lich King would live on. Ner'zhul living on is the most obvious interpretation and the one that made the most sense at the time, but the current theories involving Bolvar leave a lot of wiggle room for what might actually happen.

If Bolvar has the will to dominate the Helm of Domination, then even though Ner'zhul would still technically exist within the helm, he would effectively be dead (like he currently is).

Here it is, for the third time:

World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS]

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Old 11/24/09, 10:22 PM   #6845
Jagiya
Don Flamenco
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
There was also Drakuru, as well as the quest where you killed a Blue Flight sargeant that was in fact still in league with your faction and trying to undermine the blues' plans.
I'm assuming you're referring to this quest? (Which is an eye opener for me, because I didn't realise the Horde had their own equivalent!)

If so, I must say, the Alliance version was one quest in the game which has had the most significant emotional impact on me throughout the history of the game. After completing the quest and reading the letter, I actually felt really sad and guilty! Since then I've kinda semi-refused to accept the quest on any of my alts.

If there's anything that you can do to fight them, don't worry about me. I have them fooled and I'm sabotaging them from the inside.

I love you, Daddy!

Em
I really appreciate stuff like that (and the Bridenband interview Em posted), because I think it's very difficult and risky to provoke an emotional response from the player.

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Old 11/25/09, 6:36 AM   #6846
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Jagiya View Post
I'm assuming you're referring to this quest? (Which is an eye opener for me, because I didn't realise the Horde had their own equivalent!)
Where the Alliance version is "sad", the Horde one gives you goosebumps. My personal experience: While venturing into Dragonblight from the Tundra for the first time, I stumbled upon Ta'zinni before reaching Agmar's Hammer, killed him because he was a named, and voila, he started a quest. In Agmar's Hammer, I spoke to Torvus first and did his quest, still not suspecting anything. Then I turned in Ta'zinni's Letter to Agmar, and already the "progress" part of the turn-in send a shiver down my spine, what if I had still held Saurfang's letter? I underestimated Garrosh's conversation with Varok, but these two quests alone already set the overall "dark" tone of the Horde's invasion on Northrend, continued in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown.

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Old 11/25/09, 7:07 AM   #6847
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
I understand killing a good-intentioned member of your own faction, even by accident, is probably something that leaves a mark (on yourself, not a pun about bloodstains on the ground or your weapon). But I didn't really feel guilty about doing it. I was kind of "sad", yes, but how would I know Ta'zinni was on my side? Taking out lieutenants and other commanders is a logical step. Of course, this doesn't mean "I didn't do it". Just that I have a good reason not to have known I was making a mistake.

Agmar's reaction (follow Jagiya's quest link), on the other hand, is much more disturbing, for two reasons:

1. He doesn't see the Ta'zinni as a good-willed fellow who was doing is best, but rather as a traitor. I guess he'd prefer if the poor troll walked around in a Warsong tabard and went axe-crazy at all the Blues surrounding him.

2. The fact that, even in the face of a clearly unintentional mistake, he doesn't even consider telling Deino is what makes me feel guilty. I know trolls are brutal, but wouldn't she have understanded? I mean, it's at least worth a try. One can say this is the Horde, and it's true the Alliance commander takes a much better approach, even though he still lies to Em Malin's father, but I'd like to believe that, even though she might've held a legitimate grudge, Deino wouldn' have tried to outright fry you. And even that might've been better than having Agmar pulling a blackmail on us.

In other news, MMO-Champ has a video of Invincible. Sure enough, it seems to be a new model (or an overhauled human mount), having lost the awkward gryphon-like joints. I don't know the full lore for Invincible, but I'll take a guess and say Arthas replaced lost or irrepairable parts with pure awesome. In fact, the whole horse might be a replica of his old one...but made of awesome. It's the single most imponent mount I've ever seen and probably the only horse on which a male orc fits. It's also the size of a proto drake. While I (dino-fan) personally still prefer the proto model, this one's the Rolls Royce of mounts. You might prefer your own, but you'll twist head and spine when you see this beast.

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Old 11/25/09, 7:54 AM   #6848
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Btw, I don't really think it's lore-related, but still 'mysterious':
It’s Coming - 11/25 on Twitpic
It nears. 11/25 on Twitpic
"Something" is going to be announced today...

To me, it looks like models made from household items, the second one could be bark or undead flesh in the background, and a staff or Tauren horn in the front...

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Old 11/25/09, 8:03 AM   #6849
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
A new piece of the "It nears" puzzle, which still appears to be coming today:

It nears. 11/25 on Twitpic

I'd say diorama...in the first image (World of Warcraft - Wrath of the Lich King - Burning Crusade @ IncGamers World of Warcraftt) we had a rope and what seemed like a pulley. The "flames" seemed to be painted on something stone-like.

Now there's...some weird, wrinkled skin(?), what seems like a staff with wrapping and...not sure that's a monocle, as there isn't any chain holding it and no eye behind the lens. And it's green...This is getting bizarre. I dearly hope it's a diorama right now, these many different elements seem awkawrd for a single character. Well, let's trust Blizzard's artists.

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Old 11/25/09, 12:38 PM   #6850
Douglas
Don Flamenco
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
I'd say diorama...in the first image (World of Warcraft - Wrath of the Lich King - Burning Crusade @ IncGamers World of Warcraftt) we had a rope and what seemed like a pulley. The "flames" seemed to be painted on something stone-like.

Now there's...some weird, wrinkled skin(?), what seems like a staff with wrapping and...not sure that's a monocle, as there isn't any chain holding it and no eye behind the lens. And it's green...This is getting bizarre. I dearly hope it's a diorama right now, these many different elements seem awkawrd for a single character. Well, let's trust Blizzard's artists.
Huh! Based on those photographs, I'm not prepared to rule out still photos from the WoW live-action Sam Raimi movie.

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