I'm guessing those speeches from Uther, Muradin and Jaina may be the end of a quest that starts with some "soul shard" of sorts - dropped by Arthas, of course. Jaina says - while crying the inevitable river - Arthas kept something. Maybe she's referring to some memento, but it might as well be a part of himself he kept "pure".

Nathanyel has raised a very valid point regarding Sylvannas. Her reunion with her sister is overdue, really, and, seeing as they likely know of each other's current status, it's getting awkward.

Edit: [It's getting awkward] when I think about it, I won't pretend to have thought of this before. Not to my memory at least, so I'm not criticizing Blizzard. What I mean is that there's not only a great opportunity for a small piece of lore in the Windrunners family dinner, it also seems logical to make that happen.

I'm hoping we don't see any of them in Cataclysm. I've had all I can stomach of Human Male Paladins being about 50% of the important characters in WotLK, and am still disappointed that the new LK is someone as minor and unheard of as Bolvar, not to mention his Horde interaction is what, a few yells at the start of the instance and then him hanging above the throne like a rag doll doing nothing. He jumps down after and it's all "Hi guys, I'm the Lich King". Who are you again?

Not to say I dislike Tirion, the In Dreams... chain is one of my favourite's in WoW. Just bored of all the Paladins and ex-Paladins running the show. Lets get the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring involved, and maybe see some characters other than humans take the spotlight. There are 9 other races that could have some showing but if you're not Humans or too a lesser extent Orcs it seems you don't get a look in in WotLK. Bring some Tauren, Trolls, Blood and Night Elves back in. You can keep the Gnomes out though. For factions composed of soon to be 6 races each they're very skewed towards 1 race each.

I can't see much Legion presence in Cataclysm really, They don't want to over use the same enemies and we have to inevitably go to the Legion worlds I think, so they'll probably hold off on them till they get another demon-centric expansion.

I haven't had a chance to see the Lich King encounter (our 10man was cut short both times this week, meaning we barely got to Sindragosa), so I had a lore question:
Sindragosa death through Arthas death - do Garrosh or Varian show up, or are they involved in any fashion?

Recall Blizzard's vaguely worded comment that we would gain more appreciation of our faction leaders and that they would drive directly into the beginnings of War during ICC. So far Varian granting Saurfang Sr. access to his son's body, post (militarily-)stupid Gunship battle doesn't seem to finally break Alliance/Horde relations.

Am I mis-remembering? Were we not supposed to see Alliance/Horde War as a natural state of affairs once Arthas drops? Based specifically on things that happen in ICC?

Any last minute "Oh, snap" dialogue/interaction that would set the factions at each other's throats?

Good point there, Vaccine, on the repetition of classes and races. For Cataclysm, that we know, here are the major players' classes:

- Sylvannas: Ranger (Dark)
- Greymane: Warrior, most likely
- Hellscream: Warrior (perma Recklessness-specced)
- Thrall: Shaman
- Varian: Warrior
- Furion Stormrage: Druid (Arch, not really much of a difference)
- Jaina (?): Mage
- Cairne (?): Warrior/2h enhancement shaman/1st Tauren Paladin

A rather diverse roster, with warriors taking the lead and a refreshing absence of paladins. Then again, "Warrior" seems to be the non-defining class. Whereas a druid/mage/warlock will be treated as such by half the characters they meet, warriors have the "honor" of being called by their name/rank. Which is understandable, since the drunk hobo at the back of the tavern can pick up a broken bottle and state he's going to fight demons, thus becoming as much a warrior as the arcanite-encased behemoth who's telling about the time he broke a dragon's neck by accident, while flinging a golem.

I have a feeling Cataclysm will be shaman/druid centered, as far as the main storyline (Deathwing and his bosses) is concerned. Which, while diverting from the "been there done that" paladin-goes-bad/paladin-stays-good tale, isn't something unheard of. Both Thrall and Malfurion have starred in their share of storylines and been show to wipe the floor with most foes. So, while Malfurion needs to do a major comeback and Thrall owes us proof of his so-called badassery, these two classes (along with paladins) are perhaps the biggest bruisers of the Warcraft universe, which means further Mary-Suisms should be avoided at all costs.

@Exemplar: It's a hunch, but the "last minute oops" you mention would be what takes Garrosh to the leadership of the Horde, I'd say. Should Saurfang become an ambassador to humans, peace might have a chance, but then that doesn't seem likely and Garrosh isn't interested in said peace the slightest bit. Not that Varian finds the idea of putting up with orcs a thrilling one. Varian acted towards Saurfang as a father who acknowledges another's pain. Not as a king.

I have to disagree here. As an alliance player since Classic Bolvar is the most awesome NPC alliance-side and only rivaled in-game by Tirion. Somehow single-handedly beating 8 of Onyxia's cronies each of whom hit as hard as a raid boss does leave a lasting impression.

Until this thread's discussion of Alexstrasza's comments at the Wrath Gate I've always seen him as a warrior, not a paladin too. Probably because of his cleaving in the Onyxia event (even though he also lays hands there), but also because he's not all high and mighty killing demons and undead like paladins seem to do but instead running a kingdom just because someone has to. Same thing in Wrath, he's leaving the lich-kicking to the paladins and instead runs the army. That's a warrior to me, not a paladin. But I guess you can't disagree with official lore.

Bolvar becoming the new Lich King basically follows logically, if cliche, out of his role at the Wrathgate.

On a related note, can someone tell me what is so awesome about Saurfang Sr.? To me he's just an orc standing in front of the AH whom horde players seem to consider equal to Chuck Norris. Which doesn't help him at all of course.

Old Saurfang was awesome because of the cleave he had and (correct me if I'm wrong), an ability called Rage which pretty much auto killed anyone that crit him.

Out of game lore wise, he's the brother of Broxigar.

In game lore wise, in classic he lead the Might of Kalimdor in Silithus and I have fond memories of him charging at the elites during the gate opening event and beating them down (I don't know if he self healed, was invincible, or just had a lot of health but he was unstoppable). In TBC we meet his son and do some quests that send Dranosh on the same path as his father. In WOTLK, Saurfang tempers Garrosh's bloodlust as a voice of reason and also appears several times in quests (assisting the player and sending letters to the player) not to mention interaction during the wrathgate questline and trying to motivate Thrall to keep going after the Varian / Thrall fight.

In short, Chuck Norris references aside, he's unstoppable and overpowered whenever we see him in combat yet is wise / cautious not to let the Horde fall into its old habits. I would go as far to say he is the Horde's equivalent of Bolvar.

I played WoW long before I played WC3. And it had been many years prior that I'd played WC and WC2, so my lore knowledge was basically the booklet that came with WoW.

Saurfang and Bolvar both grew within WoW itself. They were solid, dependable types just doing their jobs. Both able to kick ass if required, but they didn't go out of their way to do so. Neither was easily fooled or power hungry - they were doing thankless jobs and doing them well.

Neither were lazy "Walk across the room and fetch me X" questgivers, nor "I'm the best badass on Azeroth and I can prove it with these 10 <low drop rate quest item) you collec... er, I mean I gathered myself." Most NPCs with which we interact are lazy or obnoxious. These guys were silent and competent.

No wonder each faction began to pump up the importance of theirs: Saurfang or Bolvar. My highest point in Wrath leveling was actually An End And A Beginning - which is just before the Wrathgate. Seeing Bolvar show up (especially greet me, since I'd done the old Ony chain) was, frankly, badass. My understanding is Saurfang is similarly badass over in Borean Tundra for the Horde leveling experience.

Until Wrath I'd wager Saurfang was unknown to Alliance (I didn't recognize the name) as much as Bolvar was unknown to Horde. But within your faction, you probably knew who they are. They definitely could have done more in-game explanation to the other faction to build up ICC a bit.

iirc this was it.

Saurfang just developed a rep as being basically impossible to kill in PvP Orgrimmar raids, much more of a hassle than Thrall/Vol'jin. Eventually some group managed it by graveyard zerging him.

Bolvar became pretty much the same way when he was buffed for the Onyxia quest chain.

We actually killed him with about 10 people by using a Naxx geared tank and a bunch of dot classes in classic, I was fairly sure at that point nobody else in the world had ever killed him by conventional means. It was rather downplayed and even erased from WoWwiki though, darn grumpy Hordlings.

Talk:Varok Saurfang - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

You get the lore at 10% which climaxes when Tirion shatters Frostmourne, then he's killed, then the cinematic launches about 10 seconds after he hits the floor. After that the room changes, with Bolvar encased in ice on the throne and that’s pretty much it. Unless there's more with a hard mode kill (all Ulduar hard modes had more lore than the normal modes) my best guess is a quest item from hard mode.

Indeed, perhaps this is missed upon by horde players but I always found Bolvar to be prominent – especially back in Vanilla. You could not spend more than 15 seconds near Stormwind Bank without having the recruitment guard yelling at someone to report to Bolvar for duty (which was the beginning of the Onyxia attunement quest line). Maybe I’m just sentimental because (as tedious as the escort quest was) I rate the Onyxia attunement as one of the best quest lines the game has ever seen, and Bolvar was a huge part of that quest. That and there were several other quests that referred to him as the de-facto king of Stormwind while Varian was missing - so you always felt his presence as alliance.

Indeed, that’s something we've been talking about on and off from around the time Wrathgate was released. I’m not sure how I feel about it though, allot of it depends on how they play this story out. Will Bolvar be corrupted over time? Most likely, you’d have to suggest. I’m not sure if it will happen in game though. My feelings are that they’ll play this one out in the books while benching him in game, and you’d see him as a major character in something like WC4 as a build up for a new story either at level 100+ or something like WoW 2. Of course this is just wild speculation, but I can’t see them re-hashing a Lich King angle any time soon.

That's the problem with Bolvars character though. Unless you play Alliance he pretty much a nobody and a minor character compared to others and has done very little of anything other than that small bit in Stormwind and the Wrathgate cinematic. When we found out Bolvar was the next Lich King the main response I got from my guild was 'Who?'. I just think they should of did a bit more with his character if they wanted to give him such a fate.

Huge portion of the people who care about Lore - know who Bolvar is, since many people played both Alliance and Horde. If you have WotLK starters who never played Warcraft before, it's really not a big deal if they don't know who Bolvar is.

He was invincible. He could drop to almost 0 health but never die, when we realized that we stopped spamming him and went back to nuking anubisaths.

Although, truth be told, Saurfang Sr. doesn't really have a feat in lore that we can brag about. Yes, we can say he lead the Silithus offensive from the front lines, but nothing like "What about when Saurfang cleaved three Vrykul in once swing?" (his son did this, but in turn lacked the record sheet in the Horde forces). So, all things considered, and this pains me to some extent, even though the Highlord is a pretty nice character, Bolvar is given more reasons to justify the Awesome achievement.

One can only hope Blizzard eventually reveals a Saurfang short story or bio detailing that time when he stepped on an old god. And that the old guy isn't made a retired farmer for Cataclysm.

PS: I have to say, though, when Saurfang says the "You answer to Saurfang, now", I swear the Alliance NPCs get a debuff. It's got to be the most badass speech for a "non-monstruous" boss.

PS2: Actually, there's that quest in Borean Tundra in which he dropkicks the insides of a Necromancer and his whole posse of uber-zombies. But I'd just like to see something in lore.

Saurfang started as an insignificant NPC other than the facts that you handed over Nefarian's head to him and he was ridiculously strong. His ridiculous power is what sparked his popularity and once Blizzard caught on, they started to develop his character.

He was revealed to be the brother of Broxigar and made commander of the Might of Kalimdor for starters, and then after a break in TBC they actually started to have him interact with the player's character.

Nearly all Horde NPCs are dismissive of the PC and only sometimes do you finally earn respect from them. Few Horde commanders have prior knowledge of the PC as opposed to Alliance commanders, or else if they do, they don't give a damn about what you've done before you met them.

Saurfang is the exception. Coming into Northrend, he's the one person who knows or cares about what the PC has done for the Horde and shows the PC the respect that you see so rarely as Horde. Whereas Alliance get accolades from pretty much every NPC in WotLK. He even goes on to save the PC from a suicide mission that Garrosh carelessly pushes on you and later sends the PC a letter in which he confides some personal views on what the Horde is doing in Northrend.

Alliance PCs are treated like the big damn heroes they are all the time. Horde PCs get Saurfang.

Oh great, ruin my day even further.

On a more objective note, there really hasn't been anything to improve (our view of) Garrosh in ICC, is he even present except for that buff?
Just a thought, what if something similar to the Xarantaur quests takes place, an alteration of past events, to stir war between the mortal races, to weaken them? As an elemental, the North Wind probably was as much a minion of the Old Gods as Deathwing is. Though, unless this belongs to the starting event and we are able to undo that, it would be a lame explanation for the renewed H:A hostilities in Cataclysm.

I'm no good with tracking down past Blizzard quotes - anyone who trained this skill in the raid? I'd like to re-read exactly what Blizzard said about factions/faction leaders in ICC. From what I recall they said we'd gain more of an appreciation for Garrosh and Varian in ICC and be willing to follow them in Cataclysm, however there is so much supposition in this thread that it's easy to conflate what people want/think will happen with what is actually stated.

If correct, Blizzard fell down. Varian showing up and saying "Poppa can have his kid's corpse" is nicely sentimental, but those 10 seconds don't make me bond with my faction leader and want to unthinkingly follow all his instructions in the future. I suspect Garrosh is as marginalized in ICC.

ICC wraps up the threads (as much as Blizzard ever does) of Wrath. No problems there.

ICC leading into future content - not seeing it. This makes me a sad panda. At least Samwise would be happy - the artwork is enjoyable and I am a panda, after all.

I recall them saying we'd come to appreciate Garrosh Hellscream as a Warchief. Can't recall if the same was said about Wrynn. Since my Spider-Character-Derailment-Sense immediately went foghorn mode, I'll keep with the most logical explanation: martial minds like Hellscream's and Varian's make the most sense in a completely senseless and apeshit context (waging war while a winged T-Rex is breaking the world). Drawing real world references, it's not unheard of for governments and leaders to create or enter wars for the purpose of cementing their power and acceptance, as well as diverting their people's attention. My dear ol' Portugal, for example, entered World War I out of this. Now, Varian and Garrosh enter war out of sheer hatred for each other['s faction], but once we're at it, players will pretty much be forced to help their faction - and respective leader -, no matter how imbecile the whole thing seems to them. This will be enforced by leveling-required quests, most likely. NPCs are a no-brainer, they'll be poop-socking-cheering for the faction leaders, day and night, bar notable characters.

Agreed on the nice gesture by the human king not really tying with the main Horde-Alliance storyline come Cataclysm. In fact, since it's been confirmed that we'll pretty much be at war, said dissonance is set on stone. Maybe Varian and Saurfang will send each other letters stating how all the war business makes them sad and is bad for their kids (oh...sorry, Saurfang).

On the Aggmar thing...he's proven himself to Garrosh, otherwise he wouldn't be in charge of conquering the Isle of Conquest. He sounds and acts like Garrosh, even though he's older and thus has gone through enough things to know outright bloodlust against everything that moves is what fucked up the orcs back then (his white hair, unless a case of albino, indicates he was around at the time of the first or second Horde). So, what you have is pretty much an experienced bloodletter with a chunk of arcanite where a heart should be (the letter to Deino quest) who's magnificently loyal to his Warchief and doesn't bother him with morals or past traumas (or death threats). Maybe Garrosh will see how keeping Saurfang would be logical from a political stability point of view (going blank slate may show the troops there's too much rupture in the Thrall -> Garrosh transition). But an unquestioning right hand can't be thrown out. Of course, I hope Blizzard isn't thinking of making Aggmar a Saurfang-clone, ponderate and cool-headed.

I'd love to see the Might of Kalimdor return as a neutral faction (Just think! An Argent Dawn-alike where Paladins aren't a dime a dozen!) to take on Deathwing and his cronies, led by a Saurfang who decided to renounce his ties to the 'New New Horde' and follow Thrall's (apparent, from what we know) lead by having no part of the faction rivalry.

If you gave me a choice between that and having Saurfang stay as the disapproving father figure constantly looking stern and shaking his head at Garrosh's antics -- since if Blizzard are trying to give us a new appreciation for Garrosh, he won't end up getting killed or ousted to restore the status quo -- I'd choose the MoK option in a heartbeat.

Seconded! But sadly it's quite possible all the war thing gets everyone in such a state of distrust that cooperation will be very, very limited. Said Might of Kalimdor will be a shadow of its former self.

And I'm not even sure how such an alliance (no pun) would be viewed by the faction leaders.

I'll still second that anytime.

You know, I find that Varian taking an honorable stance re: Deathmuncher Saurfang was really blown out of proportion. What might have really killed it for me is Jaina sobbing up a storm in the background because she's "proud of her king." What for? Because he chooses exactly the right moment to not be a mindless bigoted lunatic? Instead of improving Varian's character in the eyes of Alliance players, I feel like this degraded my appreciation for Jaina instead. After trucking through the ICC 5mans with her, and seeing how she'd let her emotions get the better of her once, you'd think she'd toughen up a bit during the real deal raid.

But noooo... she's weak and mopey and sad because she's a girl. And Sylvanas, as Jaina's opposite number, is no model for strong female characters because she's dead, and is pretty much Maiev Shadowsong with a better tailor and more practical weapons.

I don't think we're going to get a payoff in WotLK that will redeem Garrosh for the Horde and Varian for the Alliance. I think it was promised to us by Kisirani because that was part of the Plan... but Azjol-Nerub was part of the Plan. I want to know who keeps nerfing all the good story opportunities out of the Plan. If the story's getting cheesed because of gameplay concerns, is there any way to illustrate the give and take?