World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 307

Enova · 08/15/09, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

Granted, we've been speculating for awhile, so a lot of elements that are just popular speculation can come to feel like facts... but those elements have long been just at the edge of our perception in the game, much as Outland and Northrend were before their expansions. A revamp of Azeroth is great and all, but that's good for seeing old content in a new light. That's not the same as new content.

Somehow, IF this leak turns out to actually be the real thing, I still doubt we're getting the full picture here. Leaks don't just 'happen' when it comes to Blizzard. So, either it's a hoax, or it's the few tidbits that Blizzard wants us to gnaw on. If it's the latter, that doesn't mean there can't be more they're not telling us.

I'll pick on the 'Cataclysm will be the first expansion not to introduce a new continent, instead making use of previously unreleased zones and revamping existing ones' line from MMO. Aside from the fact that the Maelstrom is obviously not a continent, and there are still a lot of previously unreleased zones with ties to the Great Sea, this would actually sound like bad news. Howver, MMO continues to state:
'It is unclear if the old Goblin locations such as Kezan and Undermine will be included in Cataclyms with the revelation of the goblins' plight, but several new islands have also been risen from the seas by the events of Cataclysm, some on the backs of giant sea turtles and whales, with the addition of several underwater zones'
It doesn't really look like we'll just be revisiting some old, recolored low level areas that we've already know like the back of our hands, does it?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is... it all looks fine and dandy, but I'd rather see what Blizzcon brings us before jumping to any conclusions. And while I have no doubt that MMO probably has some credible sources for this material, an official response is always the safe (and interesting) answer.

Kaejin · 08/15/09, 11:10 AM

The whole post on MMO champ is full of things that don't make sense in one way or another. It's extremely difficult to get behind any of this when the only things we know about this information is that it's from "reliable sources" and that assumedly one of those is a poster on SA who also had his post removed. It's something that needs to be taken with a grain of salt (perhaps the entire salt shaker).

Either a vast majority of that information is bunk and this is simply yellow journalism, or this expansion is going to be the biggest lore disaster since... ever.

Meano · 08/15/09, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

The whole post on MMO champ is full of things that don't make sense in one way or another. It's extremely difficult to get behind any of this when the only things we know about this information is that it's from "reliable sources" and that assumedly one of those is a poster on SA who also had his post removed. It's something that needs to be taken with a grain of salt (perhaps the entire salt shaker).

Either a vast majority of that information is bunk and this is simply yellow journalism, or this expansion is going to be the biggest lore disaster since... ever.

Could you elaborate on why you think this would be a lore disaster? From what I have read, most lore events in this "leak" seem perfectly reasonable and grounded in existing content (with the exception of the Malfurion-Thrall-Guardian thing, which is iffy. However, I am sure there is a believable explanation if it turns out to be true). At least there's no dimension-traveling spaceships this time, which to me seems far more outrageous.

Mr. Crow · 08/15/09, 11:48 AM

The racial comparison and speculation table I discussed can now be found at:Races (Cataclysm Speculation) Sorry for the external link, but I couldn't figure out how to get the table loaded inline.

Enova · 08/15/09, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Meano

Could you elaborate on why you think this would be a lore disaster? From what I have read, most lore events in this "leak" seem perfectly reasonable and grounded in existing content (with the exception of the Malfurion-Thrall-Guardian thing, which is iffy. However, I am sure there is a believable explanation if it turns out to be true). At least there's no dimension-traveling spaceships this time, which to me seems far more outrageous.

How about Bloodhoof getting killed off and Garrosh being the leader of the Horde, then?

It's not that we're opposed to the lore evolving... far from it, actually. But unless we get to see some extensive development of the political situation before Cataclysm is released, then all the changes to the Horde - Alliance status quo could possibly turn into a disaster for the lore fans. And by the way Garrosh has been taking stabs at Thrall so far, I can think of nothing whatsoever that could posses Thrall in order to willingly make Garrosh his successor, of all the candidates out there. Even if Saurfang were to be killed, Naz'grel, Vol'jin and Bloodhoof would all stand a better chance to taking over leadership of Orgrimmar. So, I'm waiting for a pretty damn good reason why things turn up this way. And they really have to make it convincing this time...

Kaejin · 08/15/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Meano

Could you elaborate on why you think this would be a lore disaster? From what I have read, most lore events in this "leak" seem perfectly reasonable and grounded in existing content (with the exception of the Malfurion-Thrall-Guardian thing, which is iffy. However, I am sure there is a believable explanation if it turns out to be true). At least there's no dimension-traveling spaceships this time, which to me seems far more outrageous.

Many of the new class/race combos, for one. They either go back on many things Blizzard has affirmed their stance on in the past (gnomes priests, human hunters) or just outright don't make sense. Tauren paladins? Honestly?

Both new races. Goblins are neutral merchants and mercenaries. They lose business opportunities by siding with the Horde. What about the Steamweedle Cartel? Worgen don't make any more sense. It's already been brought up that Varian accepting the Worgen is very unlikely, as xenophobic as he is, not to mention the Alliance didn't accept the undead either. The last few pages have discussed this enough, though.

It seems to be implied that Deathwing and Azshara are working together. Neither character is much of a team player. Both are domineering power-mongers. Both are extremely xenophobic. Both are extremely powerful. Both have goals that would involve the extermination of the other.

I don't need to go into the Guardian of Tirisfal business.

"The New (New) Horde." This is probably the easiest to pick apart aside from the Guardian. If we assume there's any shred of truth in this one, it's likely that whoever wrote this bit just found the end result (Cairne dead, Garrosh in charge) and tried to (poorly) fill in the gaps. I'm going to quote an earlier post.

Originally Posted by Mynea

I'm kind of expecting Saurfang to bite it in Icecrown.

Thinking about it a bit more, the basic events make a lot more sense if they're taken in a different order. Thrall leaves Cairne in charge, Cairne gets assassinated, Garrosh blames the Alliance, takes over as Warchief, and starts his war. Same net effect without having Thrall look like he's gone senile or needing to implicate the Warchief (instead of, say, the Grimtotem) in killing off a faction leader.

The only reason I would even consider this part having any shred of truth is because of how far the whole Garrosh bit has gone in WotLK. It's already a mini lore disaster itself, and seeing it grow like a cancer wouldn't surprise me that much. However, let's be honest. Blizzard has to know how much we (the Horde in particular) hate Garrosh. Putting him in charge and taking away two of the faction leaders that people like the most is a great way to cause a faction that already has a small population on most realms even smaller.

Giulls · 08/15/09, 12:17 PM

I think you're being overly lenient on your use of "xenophobia." Garithos was a good example of xenophobic - he hated his naga and undead enemies, he also hated his elf allies - if you weren't human you were useless.

Varian, rather than xenophobic, is anti-orc, or anti-anything that attacks the alliance (with little thought to other ways of dealing with these other than killing them). Yes, him letting worgen join the alliance sounds pretty unlikely at this point however, since they fit in well with the "anything that attacks the alliance must be hated" mentality.
Azhara was not xenophobic when it suited her needs, she did consider most other races / lower night elf castes as lesser, but she was also working with the Burning Legion's demons for more power. Working with Deathwing might also fall along those lines.
Deathwing makes much less sense as he truly is xenophobic and untrusting of anything that is not Black Dragonflight. However, an alliance doesn't always end happily or last forever, and both of them are very likely considering each others' swift deaths once a purpose is accomplished. Deathwing could also be expecting her to somehow help the empowering of his flight, and stick with her only until that happens.

Talgog · 08/15/09, 12:25 PM

Azshara isn't xenophobic. She wants to kill everyone equally.

Kaejin · 08/15/09, 12:37 PM

Perhaps racist would have been a better choice, then?

Regardless, I find it hard to believe they would work together. Both have big egos, and I'm relatively sure at least Deathwing wouldn't settle for anything other than servitude from anyone he "cooperates" with. I just don't see them getting along long enough to chant a spell or whatever.

Montegomery · 08/15/09, 12:40 PM

Remember that we're looking at what is effectively the Cliff's Cliff's Notes for lore in the next expansion. This is akin to summarizing Hamlet as "Danish prince dies", not that WoW lore is all that comparable to Shakespeare.

We'll likely still find issue with much of this when and if it turns out to be true and Blizzard gives their full explanation. But consider how much we speculated on the purpose of the Argent Tournament when we were collectively oblivious to Tirion's speech on the grounds. While it would help if Blizzard had made a lead in quest to such things, the point being that often we assume Blizzard as being rather loopy when our information is simply incomplete.

Starfire · 08/15/09, 1:16 PM

To me right now the biggest issue is the 10 character limit.

Also, I wouldn't say the Dark Iron have lost all of their leaders. Ragnaros is apparently still around. And I believe the spirit of their Queen still haunts Grim Batol, no? But more interestingly... It's about damn time Moira has that baby.

If we're to believe the Horde loses two leaders, I am sure the Alliance are going to lose at least one leader... And if Thrall --the most beloved Horde leader-- goes, then there are no holds on which Alliance leader can go. (Personally, I am hoping Velen gets picked off... I never liked that guy... just don't touch my Tyrande, k?).

Mr. Crow · 08/15/09, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Remember that we're looking at what is effectively the Cliff's Cliff's Notes for lore in the next expansion. This is akin to summarizing Hamlet as "Danish prince dies", not that WoW lore is all that comparable to Shakespeare.

We'll likely still find issue with much of this when and if it turns out to be true and Blizzard gives their full explanation. But consider how much we speculated on the purpose of the Argent Tournament when we were collectively oblivious to Tirion's speech on the grounds. While it would help if Blizzard had made a lead in quest to such things, the point being that often we assume Blizzard as being rather loopy when our information is simply incomplete.

Even keeping that in mind, there's a lot of information that completely ignores resources that we know are going to come into play. I have a lot of trouble believing that the introduction of Med'an and all the business going on in the comics is going to result in Thrall becoming the Guardian. If that was the case, why introduce Med'an at all? Others have mentioned the absence of Varian Wrynn to the whole affair. Hell, aside from the Worgen joining the Alliance, there's hardly any mention made about what the Alliance is doing in this expansion and why.

You are right that people are going to find a lot of contention with this: only five more levels will likely mean only five more talent points, which makes things easier from a design perspective and a "lengthening the life of the platform" sense but angers the people who want more buttons to push. The argument of "but look at all the other classes you can roll now" doesn't work when class-changing is the only feature that will likely never get implemented.

Initially this information excited me, but the more I analyze it along with the community, the more I'm thinking we're getting tricked. The complete complicity of WoW.com and M. Boubouille in vetting this information is a huge sticking point though, unless they're getting lied to as well.

Leviathon · 08/15/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Remember that we're looking at what is effectively the Cliff's Cliff's Notes for lore in the next expansion. This is akin to summarizing Hamlet as "Danish prince dies", not that WoW lore is all that comparable to Shakespeare.

We'll likely still find issue with much of this when and if it turns out to be true and Blizzard gives their full explanation. But consider how much we speculated on the purpose of the Argent Tournament when we were collectively oblivious to Tirion's speech on the grounds. While it would help if Blizzard had made a lead in quest to such things, the point being that often we assume Blizzard as being rather loopy when our information is simply incomplete.

My main issue is how this basically ignores anything new and possibly makes it so we never see areas like Kul Tiras, Undermine etc. Re doing zones would be neat but is not comparable at all to going to the Maelstrom itself and the islands of Azeroth. I really am hoping that MMO Champ is just believing the wrong source since this leak is making the next expansion look like a lore disaster regardless of how much information we are getting. Sure we didn't know much about the Coliseum but I always assumed the reasoning was what they had Tirion say and it made perfect sense compared to Garrosh of all people leading the Horde.

Keldin · 08/15/09, 1:40 PM

Only part which could be a lore disaster is Thrall + Malfurion's guardian of tirisfal plot. Everything else fits and has been in the rpg books and has lore that supports it.

Right now we do not have enough information to whine about something that isn't even yet officially confirmed. Not to mention the lack of detailed info about everything in general. Some of you seem to be awfully conservative about the lore and too stuck in some rules that don't exist even.

Ptoleman · 08/15/09, 1:40 PM

I read MMO's Cliff's Cliff's Notes, and I thought, with the exception of the Guardian of Tirisfal stuff, that pretty much all the lore stated there made much sense, logically and politically. We'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.

I would say that Velen is probably one of the most forgiving characters in all of WoW, seeing as he stood by and helped the Blood Elves attain their salvation despite the wholesale slaughter they attempted on his people. I don't see why he wouldn't show the same attitude towards the orcs; their actions, although ultimately their own choice, were still done under the influence of demon masters. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, we just haven't heard much of his opinion on the Orcs. Most of Velen's in-game actions concern the Sin'dorei.

As for "xenophobia" and "racism," I find it contradictory to say that Varian wouldn't accept the Worgen when he accepted the Death Knights into the fold. His mistrust of the Undead and the Orcs are more than mere racism. In the first place, nobody in their right mind should trust the Forsaken; in the second place, the Orcs have a bad history of trying to destroy the Alliance. They've redeemed themselves, to be sure, but they are still a war-like race with idiots like Garrosh in power because Metzen said so. Suspicion in this case is hardly uncalled for.

Azshara and Deathwing, on the other hand, are both just plain mad. I think "xenophobia" is too quaint a word to describe their respective characters.