World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 320

Bullshot · 08/19/09, 12:04 PM

Taking the discussion back a little, was any reason given as to why Thrall didn't officially involve the Horde in Ulduar? Varian threw a fit and had himself portalled out while spewing "May this Death God take you" at both Rhonin and the Horde, but why exactly didn't Thrall stay back and listen to Rhonin? Surely he would have recognized the danger posed by an Old God being loose in the world.

Machinator · 08/19/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bullshot

Taking the discussion back a little, was any reason given as to why Thrall didn't officially involve the Horde in Ulduar?

What is officially involve? I don't think either said I'll send up a couple regiments to lay siege. The bulk of friendly NPCs seem to be Kirin Tor or dwarves that I assume are with Brann.
Besides, if the horde isn't involved in Ulduar, why am I going there 3 days a week? :P

VerziehenOne · 08/19/09, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

Besides, if the horde isn't involved in Ulduar, why am I going there 3 days a week? :P

You're not really going there 3 days a week. Don't worry, a story arc in the comics or an in game cutscene will eventually explain to you that what you killed was really killed by [NPC's A, B, C]. And that when you killed them, it was merely a setback.

Cobs · 08/19/09, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by obbity

Saurfang is a questgiver in Borean Tundra and also plays a part in the quest 'Foolish Endeavors', where he disguises himself as a scourge and then pops out to beat down Varidus the Flenser and his army (which apparently is on youtube). Given that you return Saurfang the Younger's battle armor to him after the Wrathgate as well, I'd say he's not as minor as you make him sound.

Perhaps he chooses not to accept the title of warchief as he feels he's a better commander of armies than a leader of the people. I worry that he won't survive past WOTLK based on what he says in Borean Tundra though. I can't see him really letting Garrosh be leader of the Horde and messing things up:
Saurfang to Garrosh: "I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes... "

From the flavour text in BT between Saurfang and Garrosh, I don't see Saurfang ever taking on the mantle of Warchief. He is clearly haunted by the past and the things he and the horde did under the blood curse. He is content to protect and serve until he dies but isn't focused towards the future like Thrall is (and maybe Garrosh will be).

One question I had (originally when Thrall was named the new Guardian then became more aparent with the comic preview) was what role Med'An would play now. If it isn't the Guardian than probably a tool of evil seeing as hes being set up to be epic one way or the other. The obvious thing is Old God influence with the voices in his head and Cho'Gall's spell on his mother etc. but what about Sargeras? From the leaks it seems purposely obscure about the source of power and someone speculated earlier about an avatar of Sargeras popping up but what about Med'An as the vehicle for Sargeras? Maybe something inherited from his dad?

andastra · 08/19/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mman

I think this might be a sort of chicken and egg though. Do people skip the story because they are not interested in lore or because they simply have been conditioned into ignoring it? I would argue there are probably a good amount that fit into the latter. There are simply so many worthless old world quests, with the lore hid away behind long chains, that is has always been easier and more efficient to use QH and get through the content as quick as possible. This only became worse with the changes to XP. Now you can pick and chose the quickest quests and just skip anything longer. Consolidating the old quests would make the leveling process not only smoother, but it would allow the story to come to the forefront of the experience.

Many of the old, long chains in vanilla also spanned both continents and numerous zones. If people did them once on their main character, most wouldn't want to do them again on their alt. If Blizzard only changed one zone out of the multiple ones the quest chain used, they'd have to do some changes to the quest.

If the goblins are either Horde side or servants of Deathwing, I wonder what the Steamwheedle Cartel will be. Are they going to be a third goblin faction or will those zones where they are all be revamped? Considering Uldum will probably be in the expansion, there's a good chance Gadgetzan will be revamped.

Leguaran · 08/19/09, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Robespierre

The Dwarves, if I remember right, swore an oath to the human kingdoms after their lands were liberated in Warcraft I (I think, it's been years since I've played it).

If memory serves me right, when the Alliance splintered at the end of the the second war and most human kingdoms pulled back, Magni swore on behalf of Ironforge that every living dwarf of IF had a lifelong duty to the Alliance, for liberating Khaz'Modan.

Here's something I don't believe has been brought up so far. The leaks being true, and "Dwarf Shaman" being a possible Race/Class combo, this got me thinking. The Wildhammer Dwarves of Aerie Peak have had shamans in their fold for a long time -- and they, also, have stayed officially away from the Alliance out of their own choosing. Perhaps with a world-changing Cataclysm might make them reconsider their position of staying out of Alliance affairs and join?

Moreover, one of the leaks mentions the eruption of Blackrock Mountain -- this would put Dark Iron Dwarves out of their homes in Blackrock Depths. What if Blizzard picked up and continued with the quest that says Princess Moira is pregnant from the Dark Iron Emperor? Dark Irons out on their asses, and the legitimate heir to Ironforge being a Dark Iron, maybe this would be a good opportunity for Magni and them to work out their differences? Dark Iron Dwarves have had spellcasters in them since the beginning of WoW too (which, isn't saying much, considering Dwarf Mages used to be available in Vanilla BETA)

In a whole, I wonder if we could be looking at the three dwarven clans being reunited for the first time since the War of the Three Hammers.

Emeraude · 08/19/09, 4:06 PM

It was the Elves of Silvermoon that had a debt to the Human kingdoms, or more specifically Lothar and the Arathi bloodline, since they helped them beat back the Trolls during the Troll Wars.

andastra · 08/19/09, 4:09 PM

Ironforge really had a debt to the human kingdoms as well, since the orcs captured Khaz Modan during the second war. They were about to conquer Lordaeron before Gul'dan's betrayal. The human kingdoms helped liberate Khaz Modan thereafter.

Leguaran · 08/19/09, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

It was the Elves of Silvermoon that had a debt to the Human kingdoms, or more specifically Lothar and the Arathi bloodline, since they helped them beat back the Trolls during the Troll Wars.

Both. And it should be added that the Elves were less than enthusiastic about fulfilling their oath to the Arathi line, sending minimal help at first, and not really commiting to the Alliance until all hell broke loose near Silvermoon.

I hate linking WoWwiki, so I went and got the quote on the warcraft site (WoW -> Info -> Story -> Chapter 4)

"[...]Though the Alliance was falling apart, King Terenas still had allies that he could count on. Both Admiral Proudmoore of Kul Tiras and the young king, Varian Wrynn of Azeroth, remained committed to the Alliance. Furthermore, the wizards of the Kirin Tor, led by the Archmage Antonidas, pledged Dalaran's steadfast support to Terenas' rule. Perhaps most reassuring of all was the pledge of the mighty dwarven king, Magni Bronzebeard, who vowed that the dwarves of Ironforge would forever owe a debt of honor to the Alliance for liberating Khaz Modan from the Horde's control. "

Note that they've updated the page by adding Varian's name to it.

Mman · 08/19/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by andastra

If the goblins are either Horde side or servants of Deathwing, I wonder what the Steamwheedle Cartel will be. Are they going to be a third goblin faction or will those zones where they are all be revamped? Considering Uldum will probably be in the expansion, there's a good chance Gadgetzan will be revamped.

I still don't buy that goblins as a race will join the Horde. Just that many will chose to. You will still have lot of independent goblins working for whoever will pay them, Steamwheedle included probably. This won't be much of a stretch. It fits in with goblin's ethos and there are now numerous examples where PCs are tied to either Horde or Alliance, while they still belong to a group that is neutral (Deathknights and Druids).

Robespierre · 08/19/09, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

It was the Elves of Silvermoon that had a debt to the Human kingdoms, or more specifically Lothar and the Arathi bloodline, since they helped them beat back the Trolls during the Troll Wars.

They had one too but the elves declared it done when Lothar died near Blackrock Mountain.

Talgog · 08/19/09, 6:52 PM

It's never been necessary for the entire race to join for a race to be playable under a faction. The trolls and dwarves are explictly clans of the race and the humans and orcs have large numbers of loosely affiliated or outright hostile individuals. At an extreme level, the Alliance got some of the good Eredar.

Emeraude · 08/19/09, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Talgog

It's never been necessary for the entire race to join for a race to be playable under a faction. The trolls and dwarves are explictly clans of the race and the humans and orcs have large numbers of loosely affiliated or outright hostile individuals. At an extreme level, the Alliance got some of the good Eredar.

That's very very true, I think the Trolls obviously are the most extreme case of this. Blood Elves as well, considering we have a pretty strong High Elf presence in Northrend.

Mr. Crow · 08/19/09, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

That's very very true, I think the Trolls obviously are the most extreme case of this. Blood Elves as well, considering we have a pretty strong High Elf presence in Northrend.

It would probably be more appropriate to use the term "nation" instead of "race" when it comes down really being specific. Saying that "orcs are Horde" is inaccurate when you consider all the orcs involved with the Illidari forces, or the Twilight's Hammer, or the Blackrock Clan. The Forsaken are one particular nation of undead that work for the Horde, where all other deadites work for the Scourge.

It's all semantics when it comes down to it.

Enova · 08/19/09, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

That's very very true, I think the Trolls obviously are the most extreme case of this. Blood Elves as well, considering we have a pretty strong High Elf presence in Northrend.

That extends to the Forest Trolls in the Horde, and pretty much the High Elves and Dwarves in the Alliance in Warcraft 1 and 2, yet we didn't question the actual lore back then.

Which is why I really feel the need to commend Blizz for actually creating a convincing allegiance system that can shift from day to day. Earlier today, on my train ride back home I was actually skimming through an ancient history book and I was really surprised of how two larger factions (sometimes under the same leadership, and without either side suffering any crippling defeats) could exchange members twice or more within the space of a few years. If anybody's been studying the political relationships in Asia Minor during the time, you'd be surprised of how many parallels to WoW one could draw. I'm not sure if it's intentional or just pure dumb luck on Blizzard's behalf, but it's really a nice touch of credibility being added to the game.