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Old 08/22/09, 6:08 PM   #4921
• Chicken
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Originally Posted by Talanik View Post
If thats the case, it could easily be the justification needed for the Horde to declare war on the alliance, and wouldn't make us Horde players feel as bad anymore.

I don't see why though, or how. Jaina would undoubtedly have a major problem, and Varians main problem seems to be with Garrosh. Theres been very little Thrall/Varian interaction.
While there hasn't been much interaction between them, text makes clear that Varian hates Thrall/the Orcs very, very deeply:

Thrall yells [Orcish]: Mog Osh'kazil gul'rok il mog Ro'th zaga maza TOV'OSH (The Undercity belongs to the Horde once more! LOK'TAR!)
King Varian Wrynn says: THRALL! HERE?
King Varian Wrynn says: ONWARD! We end this now!
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Varian, stop! I won't help you do this!
King Varian Wrynn says: The orcs have a battle cry: LOK'TAR OGAR! It means "victory or death." Fitting...
King Varian Wrynn says: To the throne room!
King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
Dialogue taken from the Alliance version of the Battle of the Undercity. Note his reaction upon hearing Thrall.

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Old 08/22/09, 6:34 PM   #4922
Nuke1096
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So yeah, how does this sound for the raiding/storyline structure in Cat?


Launch 4.0

Firelands - Ragnaros
Blackwing Descent - Nefarian
Grim Batol - ???

Skywall - Al’Akir


Patch 4.1

Abyssal Maw - Neptulon


Patch 4.2

Temple of Earth/Deepholm - Deathwing


I'm thinking perhaps with them launching with so much raid content at launch, we might not see 3 major patches this time around like we did with WotLK. Then again, there could be a raidless patch in between there somewhere that just focuses on pvp. Though, it's not like 3.2 was a major patch on the same scale as 3.1 and 3.3 are likely to be either.

But yeah, how does that look for story progression? I can get pretty excited about that. Also, with Grim Batol apparently planned for a starter raid in Cataclysm, that clearly means Deathwing isnt likely to appear there. Who do you think will show up in his place? I'm putting my money on Cho'Gall making an appearance seeing as how he is currently the head of the Twilight Hammer and Grim Batol/Twilight Highlands supposedly being their base of operations in the new xpack.

Last edited by Nuke1096 : 08/22/09 at 6:41 PM.

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Old 08/22/09, 6:43 PM   #4923
Bregonn
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Or an Old God set up the kidnapping and rescueing in order to promote war between the Alliance and the Horde. Seems right the kind of manipulating thing they'd do. It was the first I thought about when reading about the 'Varian pulls a missing diplomat on Thrall' thing.

Not that there won't be war without it though. With the Alliance losing Southshore and Ashenvale it looks like Varian was right. The Horde has been left unchecked for too long.

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Old 08/22/09, 6:56 PM   #4924
Talanik
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Also, we haven't seen much of Eastern Kingdoms and how it was affected by the Cataclysm - most of the screenshots we've seen are from northern Kalimdor: The Barrens, Desolace, Ashenvale, Darkshore, etc. The only thing we've seen in Eastern Kingdoms is the Greymane wall being shattered.

What about the rest of the planet?

South Kalimdor - Feralas, Tanaris, Un'goro, Silithus (Especcially after AQ)
Eastern Kingdoms - Plaguelands (Esp after the Scourge defeat), Quel'thelas area (Esp after Sunwell), Human/Dwarf kingdoms, etc. We know the gnomes will retake Gnomeregan, but how will the continent be affected by the Cataclysm geographically speaking, and by past event? I fully expect the bridge connecting southern and northern Eastern Kingdoms to be shattered.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:00 PM   #4925
Emeraude
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Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
While there hasn't been much interaction between them, text makes clear that Varian hates Thrall/the Orcs very, very deeply:

Dialogue taken from the Alliance version of the Battle of the Undercity. Note his reaction upon hearing Thrall.
The problem is that there's a disconnect between the in-game, and say the comic where Varian & Thrall meet at the summit, and he has his doubts about the Orcs, and then afterwards when both sides think the other attacked each otherhe has a much more...level headed I want to say? Opinion of Thrall, and speaks about Garrosh as the more foul type of Orc.

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:05 PM   #4926
buttah
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An interesting piece with Icecrown that was mentioned on the raid panel is that in the gunship encounter the alliance will be added by King Varian Wrynn while the horde forces will be assisted by Saurfang, not thrall.


Also, in the five man dungeons Jaina would be making an appearance to aid the Alliance and Sylvanas to assist the Horde.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:08 PM   #4927
Liebestod
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Originally Posted by Nuke1096 View Post
So yeah, how does this sound for the raiding/storyline structure in Cat?


Launch 4.0

Firelands - Ragnaros
Blackwing Descent - Nefarian
Grim Batol - ???

Skywall - Al’Akir


Patch 4.1

Abyssal Maw - Neptulon


Patch 4.2

Temple of Earth/Deepholm - Deathwing


I'm thinking perhaps with them launching with so much raid content at launch, we might not see 3 major patches this time around like we did with WotLK. Then again, there could be a raidless patch in between there somewhere that just focuses on pvp. Though, it's not like 3.2 was a major patch on the same scale as 3.1 and 3.3 are likely to be either.

But yeah, how does that look for story progression? I can get pretty excited about that. Also, with Grim Batol apparently planned for a starter raid in Cataclysm, that clearly means Deathwing isnt likely to appear there. Who do you think will show up in his place? I'm putting my money on Cho'Gall making an appearance seeing as how he is currently the head of the Twilight Hammer and Grim Batol/Twilight Highlands supposedly being their base of operations in the new xpack.
Cho'gall in Grim Batol would make sense. I'm not sure about a Temple of Earth raid as where Deathwing is confronted, but who knows.

Keep in mind that the 4 announced raids, I guess, only share 14 bosses between them. So it's only about as much content as Naxx, although obviously building things (mostly) from scratch will require more work.

I can easily see there being additional Abyssal Maw / Uldum / Temple of Earth raids in the content cycle, but if that's the case I don't understand why Blizzard wouldn't announce them as being planned already. But yeah, there has to be more than just these four in the works for Cataclysm.

There were also some hints dropped that we might see another CoA raid in Cataclysm. It'd be about time... I'm not sure if I'd put my money on it being blue, green, or bronze however. Probably not red.

An interesting piece with Icecrown that was mentioned on the raid panel is that in the gunship encounter the alliance will be added by King Varian Wrynn while the horde forces will be assisted by Saurfang, not thrall.


Also, in the five man dungeons Jaina would be making an appearance to aid the Alliance and Sylvanas to assist the Horde.
tbh I'm starting to wonder whether the original plot of WotLK was changed so that the war between Alliance and Horde could be continued/expanded in Cataclysm. It seemed like the "three act" structure of WotLK's story isn't going to happen - where's the event ending Act II? My guess is that there was originally going to be a reconciliation between the two factions so that they could fight Arthas together, but... this turned out to be not desirable in the long run. So we're going to be fighting the opposite faction right up to Arthas' doorstop. It's not like this ruins the plot or anything, just undermines all the "you must fight together or die together" stuff that was being foreshadowed.

Last edited by Liebestod : 08/22/09 at 7:13 PM.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:13 PM   #4928
Nuke1096
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Cho'gall in Grim Batol would make sense. I'm not sure about a Temple of Earth raid as where Deathwing is confronted, but who knows.
Yeah, but that does beg the question though. If Grim Batol is slated for somebody else, just where are we going to fight Deathwing?

That's an interesting topic I'm looking forward to discuss over the next few months.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:15 PM   #4929
Kaejin
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I'm kind of interested in what connections Deathwing has made with the Old Gods. Living in Deepholm and receiving aid there, in addition to being allied with the Twilight Hammer, implies that he holds command over what we've always known to be forces loyal to the Old Gods.

Are the elementals and the TH going with Deathwing because he's ultimately a product of Old God meddling? Did he simply dominate and subjugate them? Is Deathwing himself now under more direct control of the Old Gods rather than simply being driven mad by them (this seems like the most likely reason the TH and elementals would work with him, but the least likely fate of someone like Deathwing)?

I can't wait to get into the expansion and start learning the truth behind some of this.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:21 PM   #4930
Liebestod
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I was just going to make a post along these lines. The black dragonflight and fire elementals were clearly antagonistic in vanilla WoW - what's changed? My guess is just that rival groups just don't get along in the absence of direct influence from the Old Gods (the Hydraxian waterlords hated Ragnaros, for example), who have probably orchestrated the entire Cataclysm and are having the elementals go along with Deathwing.

I'd be very surprised is Deathwing managed to get the Elemental Lords in line without invoking the mandate of the Old Gods.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:31 PM   #4931
Kaejin
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It may also be likely that it's just Deathwing and Therazane that get along (for whatever reason), with the other elemental planes only gaining entry due to Deepholm being connected.

All we know is that his base is Deepholm, that doesn't have to mean that the Elemental Lords like him being there.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 08/22/09, 7:57 PM   #4932
Volrath50
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I'm curious as to what the explanation for Nefarian's return will be, assuming it hasn't already been stated (and I missed it). I wonder if he'll get retconned into not being killed, or somehow he'll have grown his head back.

I'm not the type to get worked up over this sort of thing, I just think it will be rather amusing to set out to kill level 85 Nefarian, while level 60 Nefarian's head is on a pike in Orgrimmar.

"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."

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Old 08/22/09, 9:10 PM   #4933
Kumar
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Originally Posted by buttah View Post
An interesting piece with Icecrown that was mentioned on the raid panel is that in the gunship encounter the alliance will be added by King Varian Wrynn while the horde forces will be assisted by Saurfang, not thrall.


Also, in the five man dungeons Jaina would be making an appearance to aid the Alliance and Sylvanas to assist the Horde.
Another interesting part was them saying that they have "Big Plans" for Frostmourne. Also that when Lich King is defeated there would be some sort of an in-game cinematic (I am guessing similar to Wrath Gate) that will tie in the whole Northrend story.

It could mean that someone else gets the Frostmourne and becomes the new Lich King.

Also, an easy way to increase the hostility between Alliance and Horde and maybe give Garrosh's approach more credibility would be is Saurfang ends up dying at the hands of an Alliance attack.

But it will be interesting to see how that whole thing plays out. I will also be very surprised if Jaina, Sylvanas don't show up at the end (during the cinematic) when we are getting done with Arthas.

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Old 08/22/09, 10:25 PM   #4934
Leviathon
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Originally Posted by Talanik View Post
Also, we haven't seen much of Eastern Kingdoms and how it was affected by the Cataclysm - most of the screenshots we've seen are from northern Kalimdor: The Barrens, Desolace, Ashenvale, Darkshore, etc. The only thing we've seen in Eastern Kingdoms is the Greymane wall being shattered.

What about the rest of the planet?

South Kalimdor - Feralas, Tanaris, Un'goro, Silithus (Especcially after AQ)
Eastern Kingdoms - Plaguelands (Esp after the Scourge defeat), Quel'thelas area (Esp after Sunwell), Human/Dwarf kingdoms, etc. We know the gnomes will retake Gnomeregan, but how will the continent be affected by the Cataclysm geographically speaking, and by past event? I fully expect the bridge connecting southern and northern Eastern Kingdoms to be shattered.
They probably just haven't gotten to those zones yet. I doubt Quel'thelas will be changed that much since they said the draenei islands wouldn't be very altered (but the quests would change). I found it interesting that they said Northrend will be slightly altered.

Originally Posted by Liebestod View Post
Cho'gall in Grim Batol would make sense. I'm not sure about a Temple of Earth raid as where Deathwing is confronted, but who knows.

Keep in mind that the 4 announced raids, I guess, only share 14 bosses between them. So it's only about as much content as Naxx, although obviously building things (mostly) from scratch will require more work.

I can easily see there being additional Abyssal Maw / Uldum / Temple of Earth raids in the content cycle, but if that's the case I don't understand why Blizzard wouldn't announce them as being planned already. But yeah, there has to be more than just these four in the works for Cataclysm.

There were also some hints dropped that we might see another CoA raid in Cataclysm. It'd be about time... I'm not sure if I'd put my money on it being blue, green, or bronze however. Probably not red..
I'd imagine Blizzard didn't give the instances that will be patched in since they want to prevent the mistake they did with WotLK when they said things such as a Azjol-Nerub raid would happen. I definitely think we will see the patches go higher than 4.2 with Deathwing being 4.3 similar to how Icecrown is 3.3.

Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
I'm kind of interested in what connections Deathwing has made with the Old Gods. Living in Deepholm and receiving aid there, in addition to being allied with the Twilight Hammer, implies that he holds command over what we've always known to be forces loyal to the Old Gods.

Are the elementals and the TH going with Deathwing because he's ultimately a product of Old God meddling? Did he simply dominate and subjugate them? Is Deathwing himself now under more direct control of the Old Gods rather than simply being driven mad by them (this seems like the most likely reason the TH and elementals would work with him, but the least likely fate of someone like Deathwing)?

I can't wait to get into the expansion and start learning the truth behind some of this.
Metzen mentioned that the whisperings got worse for Deathwing in recent years and he basically has went ultra mad so I'd imagine he is still being manipulated by them for some purpose (which probably was connecting the Elemental planes into Azeroth).

I can definitly see this expansion almost being a 2 part thing. This first part deals with Deathwing and whatever motive he has and then in the second part of the expansion (85-90) we see a lot of the Cataclysm either starting to die down (due to the Elemental Planes being fought back) or get even worse due to something Azshara is doing which causes us to have to actually go to Nazjatar.

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Old 08/22/09, 10:29 PM   #4935
AJAlkaline
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Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
The problem is that there's a disconnect between the in-game, and say the comic where Varian & Thrall meet at the summit, and he has his doubts about the Orcs, and then afterwards when both sides think the other attacked each otherhe has a much more...level headed I want to say? Opinion of Thrall, and speaks about Garrosh as the more foul type of Orc.
Right, but this is before he holds the Horde responsible for killing a legion of his men along with his very best friend. Do we have any idea whether or not the comic is going to end up covering the wrathgate and the battle for the undercity and all that stuff? It has the potential to flesh out Varian's reactions a lot more.

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