I would also argue that Thrall was distracted; his connection to the elements might have been screaming "SCOURGE!" while he was trying to focus on the fight with Garrosh. The Scourge are an affront to the Elements, after all. Note that Thrall looked at his weakest just when the Scourge attack was announced.
I think that Garrosh is getting played up here simply so he can play a greater role later: his gossip text shows that he's falling for Arthas' trap, moreso than any of the other NPCs we can interact with during this Capital Attack event. His death at the Wrath Gate also does something important: note that special attention is paid to Frostmourne sucking the essence out of Garrosh after killing him. If Garrosh doesn't come back as a boss in Icecrown, I'll bet he plays a role in the perpetuation of the Lich King after Arthas himself is killed.
I would also argue that Thrall was distracted; his connection to the elements might have been screaming "SCOURGE!" while he was trying to focus on the fight with Garrosh. The Scourge are an affront to the Elements, after all. Note that Thrall looked at his weakest just when the Scourge attack was announced.
It doesn't seem to be particularly in character to have a mighty hero whose vulnerability is the presence of his enemy.
His death at the Wrath Gate also does something important: note that special attention is paid to Frostmourne sucking the essence out of Garrosh after killing him. If Garrosh doesn't come back as a boss in Icecrown, I'll bet he plays a role in the perpetuation of the Lich King after Arthas himself is killed.
I think you've mistaken Garrosh for Saurfang the Younger. (EDIT: Looks like three people beat me to it!)
I think some of you guys are reading a bit too hard between the lines here. There's no need to manufacture some special reason for why Garrosh might do well against Thrall; Grom Hellscream was well-established in the lore as a formidable warrior (he killed a demi-god named Cenarius in WCIII, among other things) and there's no particular reason to expect his son to be anything less.
Indeed, if the foreshadowing we see here holds true, then Garrosh might be more like his father than even he knows. It will be interesting to see whether or not he falls, and whether or not he will be able to find his own redemption as his father did.
I think some of you guys are reading a bit too hard between the lines here. There's no need to manufacture some special reason for why Garrosh might do well against Thrall; Grom Hellscream was well-established in the lore as a formidable warrior (he killed a demi-god named Cenarius in WCIII, among other things) and there's no particular reason to expect his son to be anything less.
Indeed, if the foreshadowing we see here holds true, then Garrosh might be more like his father than even he knows. It will be interesting to see whether or not he falls, and whether or not he will be able to find his own redemption as his father did.
I think the reason we're looking for justification is because this would be the first real physical test of Thrall's authority as the Warchief. Given the way the title of Warchief tends to get passed down (the newcomer brutally kills the incumbent or is otherwise present at his death) we have to justify Thrall's potential defeat or else it's hard to justify why someone doesn't just claim Rite of Strength, kill Thrall, and take the Horde in a new direction.
If Garrosh doesn't come back as a boss in Icecrown, I'll bet he plays a role in the perpetuation of the Lich King after Arthas himself is killed.
IIRC from reading many sources, when Arthas dawned the armor of the LK, he became the LK. His entity fused with that of the LK. They are one being now. Why do people continue to think that they are two diffrent entities? If Arthas' is killed. The LK is killed. Though he can probably be resurrected somehow. Arthas is dead. The Arthas of Lore died when he dawned the LK's armor.
Did Blizzard clarify it or are people going of what they hope/believe?
Kuthumii that is correct, however I wouldn't put it past Blizzard for a hero of the Horde or Alliance to don the armor of the Lich King after his defeat and go AWOL. There is a precedent in weapons and armor corrupting (eg. Lord of the Rings).
IIRC from reading many sources, when Arthas dawned the armor of the LK, he became the LK. His entity fused with that of the LK. They are one being now. Why do people continue to think that they are two diffrent entities? If Arthas' is killed. The LK is killed. Though he can probably be resurrected somehow. Arthas is dead. The Arthas of Lore died when he dawned the LK's armor.
Did Blizzard clarify it or are people going of what they hope/believe?
The Community Managers have been talking about it for a while now, especially Neth, asking if killing Arthas would necessarily result in the Lich King's death or just a severance between the Human Arthas and the spirit of the Orc Shaman Ner'zhul.
The original lore stated that Ner'zhul's intention was always to find himself a body, what happens to his spirit after his new vessel is destroyed is anybody's guess.
Then again it might just be Illidan all over again, we kill him, collect loots, and move on.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
I think the reason we're looking for justification is because this would be the first real physical test of Thrall's authority as the Warchief. Given the way the title of Warchief tends to get passed down (the newcomer brutally kills the incumbent or is otherwise present at his death) we have to justify Thrall's potential defeat or else it's hard to justify why someone doesn't just claim Rite of Strength, kill Thrall, and take the Horde in a new direction.
Right, and do not forget that Thrall did beat Orgrim Doomhammer in hand-to-hand combat, although he didn't know that he was fighting Doomhammer.
Kuthumii that is correct, however I wouldn't put it past Blizzard for a hero of the Horde or Alliance to do the armor of the Lich King after his defeat and go AWOL. There is a precedent in weapons and armor corrupting (eg. Lord of the Rings).
Tirion Fordring, the new Lich King. That would be deliciously dramatic.
I think the reason we're looking for justification is because this would be the first real physical test of Thrall's authority as the Warchief. Given the way the title of Warchief tends to get passed down (the newcomer brutally kills the incumbent or is otherwise present at his death) we have to justify Thrall's potential defeat or else it's hard to justify why someone doesn't just claim Rite of Strength, kill Thrall, and take the Horde in a new direction.
Yes, but note that Garrosh still addresses Thrall as "Warchief" in the last little bit of dialog. I think that tells us all we need to know about whether or not he is still willing to submit to Thrall's authority.
Yes, but note that Garrosh still addresses Thrall as "Warchief" in the last little bit of dialog. I think that tells us all we need to know about whether or not he is still willing to submit to Thrall's authority.
Two possibilities: one, Garrosh still feels he owes a debt to Thrall for showing him his father's sacrifice, and two, he knows that he's more of a general than a king.
Two possibilities: one, Garrosh still feels he owes a debt to Thrall for showing him his father's sacrifice, and two, he knows that he's more of a general than a king.
Another possibility is that he know that Thrall didn't fight to his fullest and let him take the upper hand. Thrall didn't use most of his abilities as a shaman in the scripted encounter.
There is also the other matter that Garrosh might not even want to be a warchief himself and just want to go to the front lines and fight or he knows that senior orcs and horde will not obey him if he does lead.
Garrosh is still pretty annoying if you sit and listen to his scripted text he says in the Borean Tundra. He is stood next to Saurfang and they have a bit of verbal fencing every few minutes, as well as some scripted evenets after certian quest turn ins.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Kuthumii that is correct, however I wouldn't put it past Blizzard for a hero of the Horde or Alliance to do the armor of the Lich King after his defeat and go AWOL. There is a precedent in weapons and armor corrupting (eg. Lord of the Rings).
True, I admit I find it unlikely the Lich King will stay dead. I just don't understand why people think Arthas is still alive or see him as a seperate person from the Lich King. The only shred of Arthas as of right now is his body. His spirit as we know it is dead. He may pull a Mediv though.
Well, when the Lich King spoke in the original Naxxramas, it was Arthas and Ner'zhul's voices, both at once.
The Matthias Lehnier quest chain also points to Arthas having at least some influence over the "Lich King"'s actions. Why should Ner'zhul care about Arthas' heart being destroyed?
Arthas and Ner'zhul are no longer separate entities, but neither seems to have been destroyed in the merger.
Well, when the Lich King spoke in the original Naxxramas, it was Arthas and Ner'zhul's voices, both at once.
The Matthias Lehnier quest chain also points to Arthas having at least some influence over the "Lich King"'s actions. Why should Ner'zhul care about Arthas' heart being destroyed?
Arthas and Ner'zhul are no longer separate entities, but neither seems to have been destroyed in the merger.
The quest line was discussed earlier in the thread. The answer to why the questline ever existed was that perhaps the Ner'zhul entity of LK, if it even existed, wanted to wipe out every remaining trace of Arthas' physical self. During the questline the player is 'corrupted' into destroying the heart of Arthas, as if there was a 'link' to his past and that the heart could be used for his redemption. At least, that was Tirion's assumption. Finally, the quest line revealed that no such 'link' existed, that is, there is no 'Arthas' left, only the Lich King -- but that again is just Tirion's assumption. The destruction showed that there probably was a link (or something like it), as the destruction brought the Lich King literally to his knees.
There's been a lot of talk going on who and what the Lich King is, but to my understanding, the quest line is a verification of the fact that the Lich King isn't just the result of an one plus one scenario.
True, I admit I find it unlikely the Lich King will stay dead. I just don't understand why people think Arthas is still alive or see him as a seperate person from the Lich King. The only shred of Arthas as of right now is his body. His spirit as we know it is dead. He may pull a Mediv though.
Probably because of the Heart of Arthas quest line.
I'd like him to die but I fear he is either going to get redeemed and live, or get redeemed by being seperated from Ner'zhul at the end and his body dying whilst his soul gets redeemed.
Can't we just have him die for the evil bastard he is, no one even liked him before he turned.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Probably because of the Heart of Arthas quest line.
I'd like him to die but I fear he is either going to get redeemed and live, or get redeemed by being seperated from Ner'zhul at the end and his body dying whilst his soul gets redeemed.
Can't we just have him die for the evil bastard he is, no one even liked him before he turned.
What I'd like to see, personally, is for the Lich King to be killed, but perhaps take over someone else's body in the future. Perhaps the "head" quest can hint at this, like level 60 Kel'thuzad, but much more subtly. Perhaps, even, if Frostmourne drops, something about it can hint that the player with it has been possessed by the Lich King. Obviously making "the player" an actual figure at some point. Or something along that line.
Or perhaps he can die, but become more powerful than he ever was before. Yet still evil.
Or for a twist that _absolutely_ no one would see coming: A'dal as the new Lich King! Hehe.
"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."
What I'd like to see, personally, is for the Lich King to be killed, but perhaps take over someone else's body in the future. Perhaps the "head" quest can hint at this, like level 60 Kel'thuzad, but much more subtly. Perhaps, even, if Frostmourne drops, something about it can hint that the player with it has been possessed by the Lich King. Obviously making "the player" an actual figure at some point. Or something along that line.
I think the original idea probably was for Sylvanas to go the Kerrigan route, either getting stuck with the mantle, or falling so far that she was functionally the same. Of course, she has now been absolved of most of the Forsaken depravity by the lore blaming Verimathras and Putress for a conspiracy behind her back. This is now looking a lot less likely. They really shifted Sylavanas towards being the sympathetic elf and away from "I'M DEAD, KILL EVERYTHING."
I don't rule out some sort of Arthas redemption scenario. If you have made a Death Knight, you know that that's not really a "oh he made us do it; it's all good" situation. Death Knights have a fair bit of free will and personality, and the Ebon Blade is, in terms of what made it into the game, not another Forsaken. They get betrayed and revolt. The only character that has anything approaching an outside redemption is Darion Morgraine.
Wrynn says we broke free of the Lich King, but Tirion doesn't actually *do* anything to the other Death Knights other than call Morgraine out and reintroduce him to his father.
It's apparently pretty easy to swap sides in Warcraft. Varimathras would be proud.
I think the most empathetic approach would be if Arthas were somehow seperated from Ner'Zhul in the final moments of the Lich King encounter; and with his last dying breaths, he assists the heroes in the destruction of Ner'Zhul. It'd fulfill alot of needs: Arthas would be redeemed by demonstrating that there's still a shred of noble prince in him, Ner'Zhul doesn't find a new host/champion and repeat the entire cycle, and it would be wonderfully fitting if Ner'Zhul could only be truly destroyed by Frostmourne. The players spend the initial phases of the fight battling The Lich King; only to spend the final phases of it helping Arthas complete his final task.
EDIT: It would also add a nice touch to the whole "There will be NO REDEMPTION for Arthas" tune that's been shoved down our throats. They're probably just really intent on delivering a nice surprise.
I don't want to see Arthas redeemed. He was never really that good to start with. I also question how, Jagiya, you think that Arthas turning on the LK would prevent him from finding another host or being raised.
I am not entirely sure how you think he would turn? He retakes his body? Then what would they be fighting? A spirit?
I hope to see both die as they are one being now. Though I don't expect the LK to stay dead and I won't count out Arthas' spirit pulling a Mediv.
11/11/08, 12:39 PM
