World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 364

VerziehenOne · 09/23/09, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kirth

I look at it this way, if you accept that the that the naru are the source of "the light" or so in tune with it that they have become physical manifestations of it then shadow priest are the equivalent of naru like m'uru a dark naru. Shadow priests don't get their power from a demonic source like warlocks but rather then the other side of the coin (light/dark).

This may be going too .. religious, (lack of a better word), but if Light and Dark are the opposites, what would the opposite of Demonic be then? Angelic?

If so, maybe the opposite of a Warlock would then be a Priest, and the opposite of a Shadow Priest, a Paladin? I guess I base this on a Priest turning all uber Angel when they die. (The first time.) If not, perhaps an indicator of a new class? Demon Hunter, would kind of be the idea, but with less face stabby, more healing or light pwnage? (Light based Damage class? We do have Holy Resistance, don't we? Or is it called something else?)

Also, I think the feeling I get from the Borean Tundra Kvaldir stuff, is that it is kinda like entering/leaving a time loop. (Hence the Mist or whatever), and that they are forever repeating what they did, and can't really escape it. And not just as a game mechanic either.

Montegomery · 09/23/09, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by VerziehenOne

This may be going too .. religious, (lack of a better word), but if Light and Dark are the opposites, what would the opposite of Demonic be then? Angelic?

Demonic forces are inherently forces of chaos and destruction. Their polar opposites would therefore be forces of order and creation, attributes which clearly describe the Titans. So in this case "Angelic" is inapplicable, because WoW Lore has no angels. Rather, "Titanic" would be the proper term.

Exemplar · 09/23/09, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by VerziehenOne

Also, I think the feeling I get from the Borean Tundra Kvaldir stuff, is that it is kinda like entering/leaving a time loop. (Hence the Mist or whatever), and that they are forever repeating what they did, and can't really escape it. And not just as a game mechanic either.

I take the Mist as an obfuscator and a tool of the Kvaldir's. For example, Hrothgar's Landing has been present as long as Northrend, but we didn't see it until 3.2 because it was too heavily shrouded in Mist.

The Kvaldir could have a huge civilization out in the waves somewhere, you just cannot see it until you're almost atop it (within the Mist itself).

This is why in Borean Tundra you see an empty beach, move a bit forward, enter the Mist, and can see the Kvaldir. They're literally hidden in the Mist. It's something like that Titan cloaking field around the new Uldum zone.

How they're able to move/expand the Mist is an excellent question (they're not using it to assault the Tuskar in Dragonblight) which could lead to neat future plotlines. Or (sadly more likely) they can be entirely abandoned once we leave Northend at the end of Wrath.

Tinwhisker · 09/23/09, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Demonic forces are inherently forces of chaos and destruction. Their polar opposites would therefore be forces of order and creation, attributes which clearly describe the Titans. So in this case "Angelic" is inapplicable, because WoW Lore has no angels. Rather, "Titanic" would be the proper term.

This also plays well with the Titans creating worlds of order for themselves (eg, Azeroth) out of the home of the demons/Buring Legion's world of chaos (Twisting Nether). And of course priests, like the Naaru, having two sides to the same power.

On a side note, comparisons like this can be easily carried too far. This brings up the interesting problem though that those that draw their power directly from demons/chaos should oppose those created directly by the Titans; meaning Gnome Warlocks are a mixed up bunch indeed and should have no place in lore.

Kaejin · 09/23/09, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Well, then, unless Blizzard can really tie them to Neptulon and make the current Kvaldir invaders a simple chip of, say, a large underwater empire (Pirates of the Caribbean much?), I still can't see them posing a threat to anything larger than Ratchet. What, Sen'jin? Saves us the work of tearing it down to give the trolls a proper home. Westfall? Oh...ouch...Perhaps Menethil, but's well defended.

We have no idea how big the Kvaldir forces are. What we do know is that in all cases where they appear, so does The Mist, and that they sack their target, no questions asked. So far there hasn't been a single instance of any settlement under attack by the Kvaldir surviving.

Their awakening was completely unrelated to the Lich King, as well (also, none of them are undead mobs other than the skeletons and ghosts at Shield Hill). Northsea Freebooters looted Kvaldir graves and evoked their curse, setting them loose.

The new quest definitely seems to hint that we'll be dealing with them in Cataclysm, which also lends to them not being affiliated with the Lich King.

Exemplar · 09/23/09, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

What we do know is that in all cases where they appear, so does The Mist, and that they sack their target, no questions asked.

Kaskala in Borean Tundra has no Mist. They're coming out of the Mist to attack the Tuskar. You can see the Kvaldir at any distance. Riplash Strand on the other hand is fully within Mist. You can only see them on the Strand if you have entered the Mist itself.

So they can survive outside Mist. Their exact relationship to it (and it to them) is unknown. It's still a neat effect and vaguely creepy, in the same way as anything that could be present, yet unseen.

Montegomery · 09/23/09, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

This also plays well with the Titans creating worlds of order for themselves (eg, Azeroth) out of the home of the demons/Buring Legion's world of chaos (Twisting Nether). And of course priests, like the Naaru, having two sides to the same power.

On a side note, comparisons like this can be easily carried too far. This brings up the interesting problem though that those that draw their power directly from demons/chaos should oppose those created directly by the Titans; meaning Gnome Warlocks are a mixed up bunch indeed and should have no place in lore.

The same is true even in describing the initial forces we consider polar opposites. For example, even the Burning Legion is not wholly chaotic and destructive. They have an organizational hierarchy, they build devices and structures to further their goals, and they arguably are at the forefront of demonic magic research and development. Similarly, the Titans aren't purely creative either. Their "re-origination" of planets involves utterly destroying whatever existed before.

It's fun to think about forces so powerful and central to lore as pure, but in the end there are fuzzy edges to everything.

Starfire · 09/23/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Kaskala in Borean Tundra has no Mist. They're coming out of the Mist to attack the Tuskar. You can see the Kvaldir at any distance. Riplash Strand on the other hand is fully within Mist. You can only see them on the Strand if you have entered the Mist itself.

So they can survive outside Mist. Their exact relationship to it (and it to them) is unknown. It's still a neat effect and vaguely creepy, in the same way as anything that could be present, yet unseen.

It almost sounds as if the Mist is some sort of warp-gate/portal for them. Either that or it's done to shroud their movement.

Kaejin · 09/23/09, 6:13 PM

Apparently in 3.3 Varimathras will be getting a replacement in Undercity for anyone who has completed the Battle for Undercity quest chain.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Dear Lady Sylvanas

Originally Posted by Kisirani

A bronze whelp delivers the following note, which certainly doesn't seem to be in Sylvanas' hand:

Deathhorne,

You're right. Someone has to fill the void and take care of business. I'll take that scroll from you when I get to my post.

- B

There's no further signature, but oddly, it seems to be dated "3.3"...

The signature "- B" screams out Balnazzar in my mind, despite the fact that there's absolutely no logical reason he would be accepted in Undercity after what Varimathras did. The only reason I can think of would be because going from one Dreadlord to another makes sense from the perspective of the people who designed the Sylvanas encounter in regards to Alliance vs. Sylvanas raids (which is not very compelling from any other perspective).

So, who is a logical replacement for Varimathras and has a name that starts with "B"?

Bonus points for being connected to the Bronze flight, but not required because that could easily just be a reference that the note comes from the future (3.3).

srgk · 09/23/09, 6:24 PM

Nathanos Blightcaller, Champion of the Banshee Queen. It would be great to see him come out of the wilderness the way Rexxar did in Burning Crusade. If Sylvanas was to relocate to Icecrown for the events in 3.3, he could even serve as the hub for her quests as well.

Faldrath · 09/23/09, 6:28 PM

It can't be Balnazzar, unless Sylvanas can find a way to actually enslave him. And even that wouldn't make much sense, since there's no reason for her to want another dreadlord by her side again.

Blightcaller would make sense, yes.

Emeraude · 09/23/09, 6:58 PM

It would have been a bit more conclusive if that text Kisirani made up said "You're right. Someone has to fill the void and take care of business. I'll take that scroll from you when I get to my post idiot."

Bonestorm · 09/24/09, 1:08 AM

Blightcaller makes a lot of sense when you consider the coming addition of forsaken hunters.

Bierzkrieg · 09/24/09, 5:34 AM

I'm fine with it as long as he gets some better-looking gear. That T8 hunter gear with a green tinge should work wonders on him.

I wonder what Sylvannas' part in Cataclysm will be. We know (I believe it's been dev-confirmed) she's been ordered to attack Gilneas and we can assume Garrosh is the source of such command. But will she end up siding by him if/when the Horde get's all civil-warring?

And this leads us to another subject: how could Thrall not only put an inexperienced folk like Hellscream Jr. in command, how did he not replace him with Saurfang when his actions got all martial-lawy? It's common sense (yes, I may be speaking as if Thrall's a living being) that when you let something wrong sink for a long time, it turns into a normal thing, part of the routine, hence getting harder and harder to change.

Kind of strange seeing as Thrall is, all things considered, still a pragmatic guy.

Cadfael · 09/24/09, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bonestorm

Blightcaller makes a lot of sense when you consider the coming addition of forsaken hunters.

Yes, perhaps. But wouldn't he sign his letter with "N" and not "B"? After all, the Blightcaller is just a nickname or added title. His name is Nathanos.