1. It probably only applies to NPCs, unless, as someone said above, it does affect to players in a "first stage" and then we have to retake the city, as Garrosh's ascension to Warchief may have been somewhat of a coup d'etat, capitalizing on Thrall's supposed disappearance. First answer would really be "NPC's only", but I wouldn't be admired (and it would seem more coherent) if Garrosh's throne room was closed to said "weak" races. Or even to anyone out of his inner circle.

2. Goblins first: the ones that helped build Orgrimmar (which, per se, isn't exactly a show of strengh, rather ingenuity, aside from coming at a hefty cost) probably aren't those we'll be playing with, as far as we know. My guess is they were of another cartel.
Trolls being out of Garrosh's equation is probably the hardest part to understand in this matter. Jungle trolls are not exactly weak. I'll risk saying they'd win a strength contest against any other race but Tauren, Draenei, Orcs and Dwarves. They're highly cunning, athletic, have their very own magic and are, together with blood elves, probably the best hunters and scouts of the Horde. Plus, ruthlessness-wise, they may even surpass orcs, as their lust for violence is more "rational". In a word, vicious. And this is just the "formal" part of it. There's the social cost of shunning what is perhaps the most horde-devoted race, aside from orcs. For the most part, they'd have the least second thoughts to joining Garrosh's brutal way of doing things, and I'm counting orcs here. Unleashed, trolls are just about the most savage thing you'll see on a battlefield.
Another show of utter dumbness by Garrosh. I like to analyse his actions in depth, but this one - there are others - is just borderline imbecile.

Kaijin: I accept there are some objects, groups or individuals who may be perceived as dangerous for their potential to cause unwanted consequences, in certain contexts. But still think it's a very raw way to look at things, if it gets us to the point of seeing Jaina or Thrall as dangerous. Garrosh and Varian do see them that way, though, so you do have a point. I suppose my argument on gnome technology actually makes you right. Their "ahead of its time" inventions aren't exactly dangerous per se, but their use is devastating, at times. It's that potential to invent some doomsday device that makes gnomes (and goblins dangerous). Touché there.

On Saurfang teaching Garrosh: it's not like Hellscream is all alone but for Saur. He has numerous overlords, captains and lieutenants. Aggmar, the airship douche, etc. Plus, for all his "ME KILL" philosophy, like any rational being (no jokes here), he'll learn with time. So, what's so unbelievable or story-shattering about Garrosh being left with his inner circle of narrow-minded extremists? He'll still learn and develop as a character from there. Of course, he'll become more and more certain of the rightousness of his view. So what? Doesn't mean he can't play a good part on a good story. As the eviction of races from Orgrimmar shows, Garrosh can always rise to new heights in his racism and iron grasp on the Horde aside from the "HACK THEIR LIMBS" everyone expects at every time. He'll grow more refined and, eventually, he'll become complex enough in his single-mindedness that we may be able to see what's going on inside his head.

People (and non-godly /elemental and characters) are never 100% single-minded. There are doubts or shadows of it, fears, insecurities, needs, etc. But people (and non godlyougethepoint characters) may appear to be uni-dimensional in certain contexts. Right now, Garrosh does. Because he's leading a war and we see him only at certain occasions. Once he's in control, which is the best spot to truly see one's personality and nature, we'll see how Blizzard opens the big guy to us.

Oh, and:

Perhaps it is best to wait a bit and see what truly happens. Speculation and intriguing discussion on the possibilities that are yet to come are always interesting, but the deeper or bigger meanings will be brought to light when the timing is just right. We still have a bit to go on what is brewing in Icecrown Citadel and Arthas before we get more into what will be happening next with Cataclysm.

Why does Bliz WANT us to hate Garrosh!? | General | WoW Blue Tracker | World of Raids

I don't want to extrapolate too much. Is this a simple "First things first, Icecrown has priority", or rather a "For Garrosh's actions on Cataclysm to be understood, we must first go through Icecrown"? We know he won't probably be in Icecrown, could something happen there that changes him?

When did I say he would? I suggested that if Saurfang survives IC Garrosh can just station him somewhere away from the action. Leave your military commander to hold the front in Eastern Kingdoms while you go into full rage mode in Kalimdor.
I expect Garrosh to be largely indifferent to the plight of Horde members(won't intervene if Magatha stages a coup, isn't going to protect the trolls anymore, doesn't really care at all what the forsaken and blood elves do or feel) but not to actively work against them. At least until his bloodthirst and stupidity causes an Azerothian Bay of Pigs and they decide a Basic Campfire really would be a better leader.

And the Alliance doesn't necessarily have to be in position to crush the Horde should they civil war. Maybe Garrosh's mistake is to use that new superweapon before it's properly calibrated. He smashes the Alliance good but also vaporizes some Forsaken holdings. Or unleashes some uber-evil or something. The point is, there's a lot of story still to go, the Alliance could be on the retreat when things go bad in the Horde.

Something tells me that it is very possible that events in Icecrown Citadel will make Thrall question his ability to continue leading his people. For example if he loses both Jaina and Saurfang in the Citadel then he may feel that he is just not capable of leading his people and at the same time changing Garrosh.

It also seems a lot of the sites forgot to mention that Gnomeregan is now confirmed to be re-taken which makes it even more likely that the trolls have re-taken their island.

It also seems like Tol Barad will be instanced since they feel that was a mistake they made with Wintergrasp.

@Bierzkrieg: REAL people aren't single minded, yes, you're absolutely right. We are, however, talking about a fictional character, and so far, this particular character has received very little development, effectively making him single-minded. All of the things potentially going on in Garrosh's head mean very little if he neither acts on them, or we never get to find out about them.

Additionally, if he does stay with his own commanders, he has very little room to grow as a literary character. He would simply stagnate as the meat head we know, not growing, simply sitting with the people who obey him because they like the way he does things. Of all the Garrosh supporters in Northrend, I really don't think any qualify as mentors for Garrosh. At most they're facets of his current mind-set. Saurfang is the ONLY person so far who has stood up to Garrosh, and notably Garrosh does not speak back to him or show any resentment.

It's true that Warchief Garrosh could send Saurfang away to some other post if he does not die in Icecrown, and it's entirely likely that a real person with Garrosh's position and disposition might do something like that. However, in addition to taking into account what a person would do in these situations, you also have to take into account what is best for character development and the story.

Saurfang dies in IC or gets sent away:
Garrosh stagnates as a character. He continues to be a brutal meat head and the player-base continues to hate him. Maybe Blizzard creates a new character to try to serve as a mentor and go from there to make things more interesting. If Saurfang is merely sent away, you get a quest hub where he is that still make minimal impact on both characters' development and/or story.


Saurfang does not die, and stays by Garrosh to keep him in line and mentor him:
Garrosh matures as a commander and leader because of Saurfang's experience. he finally becomes a multifaceted character and finally becomes interesting, and hopefully, at the very least, Horde players develop a grudging respect for him. Maybe Saurfang grows to view Garrosh as a second son in all this and ends up sacrificing himself for Garrosh, in turn granting Garrosh some sort of revelation that allows his character to grow even more (ala Doomhammer & Thrall). This is the type of role a mentor character fills.


As far as Nethaera's post goes, I believe she's saying both. Icecrown is a pivotal point in lore. It's the climax and conclusion of WotLK. It will have a profound effect on almost all major lore characters seen in WotLK so far. Garrosh won't be an exception because all of the characters around him will be impacted, and he himself is not exempt from showing up seeing as he's the commander of all Horde forces in Northrend. All we know is that Saurfang is in charge of the air assault. Garrosh can easily show up any time after, during, or before.



PS: It's Kaejin, please. I've had more than enough people try to call me "Kaijin" in the past. =p

GC mentions in the article that they are seriously discussing instancing it right now.

Wild speculation:

Thrall and Jaina, two star-crossed lovers, spy each other over the fury of Icecrown battle and stage a sly retreat for a Booty Bay goblin themed wedding before setting sail for a south seas honeymoon. Arthas is defeated, Garrosh gets pissed with Thrall, takes over Orgrimmar and the goblins running Club Med - South Sea Heaven decide they could make far more from Thrall's ransom than from his bar tab of orc-sized pina coladas.

Climate change induced Cataclysm makes tropical holidays less desirable than they once were and the Club Med gobbos free Thrall in order to set up the Kalimdor branch of Tsunami Tours Incorporated with the big guy as their consultant-in-resident.

Too much?

If they're going to draw every hybrid like they did Med'han, then I'll stick with Garrosh and his racial supremacy theory, thank you very much.

Kid's an aberration. Even draenei are better-looking.

At least Rexxar's good-looking. Just a light-brown orc. Seems fine to me.

I would attribute that mostly to the art style of the comic in addition to their desire to make him look distinct because of his importance.

Garona looked like any other female Orc, for instance. Lantresor of the Blade's appearance is also dominantly Orc (he reveals himself to be half Draenei during the player's "conversation" with him where he is assumed to merely be an Orc). Similarly, Mok'nathal, while distinctly something other than just Orcs (assuming Rexxar is the standard and not the Mag'har model placeholders), still look pretty much just like large orcs with tan-colored skin. Half-elves look like High Elves.

For the most part in Warcraft, half-breeds seem to take after one race with subtle features from the other. Med'an seems to be an exception having a much more balanced mix, though interestingly he still lacks any distinctive human features except that he's kind of scrawny for an Orc.

Lack of their own models means the in-game is not the best place to draw conclusions from the half-breeds' appearance. Not saying that you're wrong, Kaejin, more lamenting that Blizzard didn't implement more models besides Rexxar (not that I don't understand them). Anyway, your 70-30 theory is correct, in my opinion.

Which is why Med'han is a bit of a mistery to me. Sure, he has 3 kinds of blood in him, but that doesn't mean he should have, for example, those draenei protusions (and they went with the strangest-looking, the 3-horned). They really don't seem healthy. The tentacles, in my opinion, would have sufficed, if a distinct look was the goal. A skin more akin to Lantresor's would have made the point, as well. Admittedly, this is a very personal opinion, backed only by my taste in...half-breeds...(hmmmm, half-breads).

Hey, could Lantresor be Garona's older brother?

This Just In-Edit:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ar_outpost.jpg

This can be seen as propaganda on my anti-Garrosh view (although I want him to stay for a long time), but tell me if this scene isn't disturbing.

Last I checked, Orgrimmar and other orcish environments, while spiky, don't look like a merge of Forsaken and Demonic Design. I know, it's nightfall in that picture, but the look of those ships and that dock that looks more like Deathwing's tongue spell nothing good for what the Horde's [re]turning [in]to.

At least don't deny the change.