World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 417

ZachPruckowski · 10/25/09, 4:01 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

I don't get why Blizzard chose half the questions they did since about half of them were asking things that were said at Blizzcon.

Honestly why they would take questions like this is beyond me.

They chose those questions precisely because they were dumb. They chose exactly the questions they wanted to answer. If there was a question whose answer revealed something they didn't want out, they wouldn't choose it.

Leviathon · 10/25/09, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

They chose those questions precisely because they were dumb. They chose exactly the questions they wanted to answer. If there was a question whose answer revealed something they didn't want out, they wouldn't choose it.

They could of easily chose questions that wouldn't give out big storyline spoilers similar to the ones about the Icecrown token system. I'd imagine there were plenty of questions about Cataclysm other than story ones and if all they wanted to do. If all they wanted to do was regurgitate old info they should of just re-posted the Cataclysm site on the front page (although it is quite typical for game companies to do Q&A's like this).

Originally Posted by Gort

Edit: I would suspect that the Horde engagement dialog is basically the mirror of the Alliance; We see Alliance airship coming in hot, Muradin says "back off or else!" and Saurfang sends back two middle fingers and a load of hot cannonballs, with some rude noises to boot.

Yea the Horde equivalent has Muradin come up towards the Horde telling them that it isn't the Hordes battle and to back off or else.

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/09, 6:19 AM

Even if Arthas messes up the Horde/Alliance cooperation, and knowing full well characters might not go fully lore-faithful - we have to get them to fight, after all - does this dialogue still make sense?

I'm assuming the Lich King's interference, should it happen, is related to the revelation of Saurfang Jr's new occupation as Deathbringer. But, in that case, wouldn't Muradin understand and allow Saurfang Sr. to go face his son? Especially while he could go for Bolvar in the meantime.

If there's no interference by the Big Bad, then I can't really figure out what would trigger this fight, but "forced FVF (Faction vs Faction" is something I really have a hard time coping with. Are we supposed to kill the opposite leader, to top it all?

Vaccine · 10/26/09, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Guess Jaina would be who stops it then (since Saurfang himself is the only other orc/Horde member there who seemed against war) since otherwise both Muradin and Saurfang die on the Airships themselves (or whichever one is chosen as canon) since the end of the Airship fight involves you fighting them. I guess something else can happen to stop the fighting though such as getting to the landing point and seeing Arthas with Bolvar and Saurfang Jr.

The deathbringer was meant to be part of the encounter I believe so perhaps at a low % he boards your ship (on the flying horse model we saw?) and that allows the enemy ship to disengage.

As for the Lich King, the Ashen Verdict will likely get the killing blow lore wise with a small horde and alliance presence.

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/09, 8:31 AM

The expression they used was the "Lich King's most powerful deathknight awaits". At the landing balcony, I suppose. Whether he does wait for you or outright jumps in your ship remains to be seen. Although it wouldn't be exactly shocking, it might stall the action a little if, upon boarding, Saurfang Jr still gives us time to regain health and mana.

Perhaps that's when - on Horde side - he battles and kills his father - who may still be weakened from the battle.

On the possbility of either Muradin or Saurfang dying on the airship battle - it's the last thing Blizzard should do. Unless they mean to stress the tremendous costs this frivolous rivalry brings.

Riptor · 10/26/09, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

On the possbility of either Muradin or Saurfang dying on the airship battle - it's the last thing Blizzard should do. Unless they mean to stress the tremendous costs this frivolous rivalry brings.

The death of Saurfang aboard the Airship would really fuel the hatered within the Horde. Also, with Saurfang dead, there would be no reasonable Voice left amongst the Hordes leaders, supporting Thralls path of peace. Garrosh would love that, wouldn't he.

Also, as far as Story development goes, the death of two great Leaders during the Chaos of the Icecrown attack gives almost countless possibilities of how the surviving leaders interact with eachother. For example: While it would be in Thralls interest to blame Saufangs death on his corrupted son, or even better, Arthas himself (with Arthas defeated who will tell), Garrosh could use the death of a Champion to further rally Horde Fighters behind him, supporting him in his quest to finally go to war with the Alliance.

During the first Q&As Blizz announced that prior to Cataclysm, the Horde would go through a significant Change and Perils. What better then the Death of one of the Hordes great Leaders, which finally gives the more aggresive Patrs of the Horde the upper Hand.

Lies, betrayal, deceit. Maybe some have already figured it, but I would really love it, if Deathwing already had a Hand in this.

Kazanir · 10/26/09, 9:34 AM

You can't kill off a major faction character as part of an instanced, faction-dependent encounter. Otherwise you run into the "what is canonical" problem in an even more major way. If Blizzard somehow does end up doing that then whoever is writing the storyline is more retarded than I thought possible.

Riptor · 10/26/09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

You can't kill off a major faction character as part of an instanced, faction-dependent encounter. Otherwise you run into the "what is canonical" problem in an even more major way. If Blizzard somehow does end up doing that then whoever is writing the storyline is more retarded than I thought possible.

Why not? Icecrown will, weather instanced or not, be the Clymax of the WoW Story so far and I don't think, just because it's an instance, the events in it should be kept neuteral. Furthermore the same story can be viewed from two differnt Viewpoints, changing the preception but not the actual Event. As it is with most wars, usually both sides think their cause is just. so seeing two leaders die and makeing each side think, their champion was killed by the opposing Fraction would imho be a very intersting touch to the game.

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/09, 11:03 AM

Blizzard points to a "different" Garrosh from what we're used to. But it could very well be that, like Riptor says, such a different light is attained through propaganda and outright lying.

Indeed, Saurfang dying aboard Orgrim's Hammer opens new possibilities to the Horde's path in the coming months, but the fact remains remains that him being killed by his own son, while more predicatble and "cliché", packs a bigger punch in terms of the Icecrown raid and Saurfang's character. True, though, him dying to the everlasting rivalry between Horde and Alliance would, in bigger scope and the long run, be a more memorable moment.

If I had to choose, though, I'd still have the son kill the father. It's perfectly natural that Icecrown affects the coming storyline of Cataclysm, but thinking too much ahead will be another rusted nail in the Lich King's coffin. Which isn't too bright right now.

zoombini · 10/26/09, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

You can't kill off a major faction character as part of an instanced, faction-dependent encounter. Otherwise you run into the "what is canonical" problem in an even more major way. If Blizzard somehow does end up doing that then whoever is writing the storyline is more retarded than I thought possible.

Not if you kill off Muradin, too.

Actually, that could be sorta fun. If you're Horde, the Alliance kills Saurfang and as revenge you kill Muradin. If you're Alliance, then the Horde kills Muradin and as revenge you kill Saurfang.

End result? Both faction champions dead, and 2 different opinions as to what actually happened. Garosh will accuse the Alliance of striking first, and Varian will do the same in reverse. You don't have to say which one is canonical, since the end result is the same and it heightens the distrust and paranoia if there are two different "official" sets of events.

Aditu · 10/26/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Indeed, Saurfang dying aboard Orgrim's Hammer opens new possibilities to the Horde's path in the coming months, but the fact remains remains that him being killed by his own son, while more predicatble and "cliché", packs a bigger punch in terms of the Icecrown raid and Saurfang's character. True, though, him dying to the everlasting rivalry between Horde and Alliance would, in bigger scope and the long run, be a more memorable moment.

Only if he dies by accident trying to prevent a terrible incident, and in that act becomes a catalyst for war between the alliance and horde. Saurfang just dying because he and Muradin get into a pissing contest would be a terrible plot point.

I also don't think both faction leaders necessarily have to die and the encounter can be done in such a way that only one of them do. That to me presents a more interesting path lore wise. Blizzard still has to sell the darker, more metal horde to horde players as nobody has really bought into it yet, what better way then to have our heroes fall and alliance ones live?

Nothing about the Garrosh ascendancy would be interesting to horde players if, at least at the start, we didn't believe he is justified in becoming Warchief. Given that I doubt Blizzard wants to launch an expac where an entire faction is completely disinterested in its own story, I think that the events in ICC are going to be far more tragic for the horde then Alliance.

Vaccine · 10/26/09, 12:12 PM

I'm still struggling as to why Muradin is anything to the Alliance anymore. Hasn't he thrown his lot in with the Frost Dwarves? Also is there no suspicion of him? Guy last heard of battling Arthas and thought dead makes a 5 year miraculous recovery and is immediately brought into the highest military circles in the Alliance?

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/09, 12:26 PM

Well, in a battle between two elite forces, that both get their job thoroughly done is acceptable...but wouldn't that, erm...trivialize both those leaders' presence at the battle?

Even if it's done right, I can't see the thing straying too far from both factions' ships drifting, half-wrecked and everyone going "Well, that's a wee bit of a bloody mess we've done there, ain't it?".

You have elements in Icecrown that seem utterly designed for each faction. I fail to see what good all these character-related elements will do if Muradin doesn't get to meet Arthas again or Saurfang doesn't get to see what extraordinary job the Lich King has done with his kid.

Again, if this turns out to be a case of "It's relevant to Cataclysm", the Lich King is probably going down as a failure, no matter how difficult his encounter is. Let Arthas have merit in whatever befalls the good guys in Icecrown. As it was once was when he became a Death Knight.

Kaejin · 10/26/09, 12:52 PM

I like the idea of two conflicting stories that we'll never know the real truth behind, but at the same time I have a hard time buying that this could be the ultimate fate of Saurfang and Muradin.

There's more than enough that can happen in ICC without either getting offed that can result in faction relations getting even worse. I'm putting all of my money on the linchpin being the events of the Arthas encounter. Too many people have too much invested in personally seeing to it that Arthas dies, including Saurfang and Muradin.

I also think too many people are under the impression that Saurfang needs to die for Garrosh to become Warchief.

Zerchi · 10/26/09, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

I'm still struggling as to why Muradin is anything to the Alliance anymore. Hasn't he thrown his lot in with the Frost Dwarves? Also is there no suspicion of him? Guy last heard of battling Arthas and thought dead makes a 5 year miraculous recovery and is immediately brought into the highest military circles in the Alliance?

Muradin was only with the Frost Dwarves because he lost his memory and met up with them while wandering around in the wastes. Once he was reunited with his brothers and got his memory back, he set off straight away to hunt Arthas.

I'm guessing that his status as one of the legendary Bronzebeard brothers (brother to the Dwarven King no less) plus his personal vendetta against Arthas, which Varian would certainly understand, would help his case for leading an Alliance expedition into Icecrown.