It seems pretty likely Ulduar will be the only T8 instance with a 'secret raid' coming out sometime after that which probably would be a non tier instance followed by T9 in Icecrown Citadel. Blizzard said they wanted to go back to the large raid instances rather than having everything spread out and the only reason we have 3 raids for T7 is probably since Blizzard knew the beginner raids would get defeated so quick.

Talking about future instances, there is at least one place where there is an obvious chance to expand: the dragonflight Sancta underneath the Wyrmrest Temple. Now, it seems quite clear that the Red Sanctum is not something we have to fight. That leaves Bronze, Green and Blue.

Bronze could be tied into the mysterious Nozdormu appearance in Mystery of the Infinite and the possible involvement of the Bronze Aspect in the Infinite Dragonflight.

Blue could be easily tied into the whole Nexus War story, although it's unclear why you'd need another blue dragon single encounter instance. It could also be the place for Kalecgos and the 'good blues' to make a re-appearance.

Green is the least likely of all. The only thing I can think of are the corrupted Nightmare-inflicted dragons from the old world Great Tree portals. There's a new Great Tree in Crystalsong, although strangely its portal seems to be missing.

Anyone else get the feeling that maybe the LK is grooming the PC (Player's character) to serve him? As a commander of types or possibly a new host body?

It does seem to be going in that direction... and has been heavily hinted at by blizz employees. The LK is just too confident. If he truly was afraid of us he has had way too many occasions that he could have easily disposed of us...

The whole reason that we are invading Northrend and assualting Icecrown is because the LK attacked us, but it was a rather pitiful attack of a few frostworms and a handful of abominations. I do not think he forsaw the nights of the eblon blade defecting but he admitted that his attack on Lights Hope was just a ploy to draw Fordring out and he expected that his force of deathknights would be killed in the assault.

It just seems like that was his gambit to get everyone to do what he wanted... and the other shoe will drop...

I am very curious to see how his story arc plays out, so far it has been incredibly epic.

"Only then will you understand you've following in my footsteps all the way."
"Come then you heroes, come in all your power and glory, for in the final hour all must serve the one true king."

Now that wasn't too hard to figure out YouTube - WOTLK Trailer
Several quests also indicate that intention to let you do your thing and learn to be taken care of later.

Something like that is clearly "the plan", to invoke the Joker. That said, some of the events that have transpired so far have not gone according to plan for the Lich King.

-- A lot went wrong at Light's Hope - Tirion lives, Ashbringer redeemed, the Ebon Blade (a) live and (b) revolt.
-- He's clearly surprised that the Forsaken showed up like that at the Wrathgate.
-- Whatever Mattias Lehner was seemed to not be playing on the same team as the Lich King proper.
-- Tirion lives again by running Arthas' heart through.

So I don't think the Lich King is really trying to job it as much as it appears solely for the sake of baiting the PC on. He's just had a lot of things go wrong. He also got an unexpected bonus where the Forsaken managed to make the Horde and Alliance go at each other again.

I never got the impression that Arthas actually wanted us to do everything we were doing, including killing all of his minions. It seems more like a gauntlet, if we survive until the end, he knows we have great potential. If we don't, well then the next guy will come along. He's not setting us up to do these things, he's just watching us do them and knowing what it means. One of the great things in general about the lore of LK is we are finally getting acknowledged as being above the average peon.

I don't think there's any doubt that we've cause trouble for him, and that by the time we get to face him in Icecrown it will be "turn or die." My hope for the Icecrown raid experience is that he is involved throughout, perhaps even with multiple fights against him, rather than just trudging through a bunch of his minions in order to reach the throne he is sitting on. To me, that's always been the greatest flaw of all WoW raids, the "king of the castle" never seems to notice at all the fact you are slaughtering your way through his domain.

Well, id not put too much emphasis on that, as for as that goes. For raid zones, as well as cities and towns, you have to understand the size and immensity of them are really oversimplified due to game mechanics, coupled with the fact that if you were really bringing a small elite force, which is what our raids are, youd storm these raid zones quickly, cutting off groups that could call for reinforcements.

Black Temple really felt right, as youre leading a small force through the sewer grates and sneaking up through the underpopulated regions of the citadel, not even reaching the upper levels until mother/council.

I think a big part of Arthas' motivation for letting you struggle against him is that he's already done the exact same thing. Just a few years ago Arthas himself was right were the PCs are now, struggling to overcome the dangers of Northrend and reach the ultimate goal: Icecrown Citadel. His response to the players is colored by his own experiences, and it's inconceivable to someone as arrogant as Arthas (who was a real git even as a human prince) that the PCs could succeed against an evil he himself succumbs to.

It's natural for Arthas to assume that the PCs are just as corruptible as he once was, because even before merging with Ner'zul he was supremely overconfident and self-centered.

I think assigning motive to an mmo boss is a bit silly. Arthas will do what makes sense in the context of a video game: die and give us loot. While I would like an epic twist that took full advantage of phasing: as in those that defeat arthas see a different game world, I don't think thats going to happen.

I noticed after doing the questline in Grizzly Hills that involves killing and purifying Ursoc that ... it doesn't seem like you've really succeeded. Notice:

- the questgiver (Hierophant Thayreen or Windseer Grayhorn) is far from confident that the ashes of the Verdant Sprig have actually been completely purified.
- when you apply the ashes to the body, you get - a fierce and somewhat hostile appearing bear spirit. Maybe he's just that way, but normally you'd expect some sort of acknowledgment if you had just freed a tormented spirit.
- when you go to turn in the quest, the questgiver text is not the usual congratulations, rather:
'The druid looks pale and her eyes stare blankly past you. She has left a package in anticipation of your return.'

So, what's going on with Ursoc? Seems like the simplest explanation is that the druid who put you through the quest chain didn't fully appreciate what she was up against, and the spirit is either still corrupted or else even more corrupted as a result of the ashes you applied.

There's some other suspicious stuff in that quest line, too - she doesn't sound very trustworthy to me when she says she'll destroy the seeds of Norddrassil, for example, and the names of the item rewards play that up, at least on the Alliance side - "Hoarder's Necklace," "Drape of the Possessive Soul."

If I had to guess at why she's pale, etc., it is because the "corruptive power" of the Norddrassil seeds has already gotten to her. Who knows if they'll ever do anything with it of course.

I *do* think Ursoc is basically fixed. He thanks you afterwards and tells you to watch out for Yogg-Saron, at least for Alliance folks.

As I understand it, Loken and friends are not Titans per se. They're referred to as Watchers, and the Avatar of Freya refers to the Titans as her "creators" repeatedly. Presumably the avatar and Freya herself behave similarly, and Freya is a Water - ergo, no Titans here. Which makes me wonder - perhaps Loken has a "father" in the Ulduar raid as mentioned in the Fjord quest who IS a titan.

There's already a very long quest chain in WotLK that relies upon this exact plot twist, so it would indeed be cheesy to whip it out a second time.

Blizzard has toyed with the idea of Titan Avatars, Titan Watchers, Titan Guardians since Uldaman. Its time to just give us what everyone wants to see: A Titan - and Ulduar is the perfect opportunity to do just that. Maybe one that stayed behind in Ulduar after the Pantheon left - and has since been driven mad by Yogg-Saron. Make it seem that hes 'weakened in a crazed rage by Yogg-Sargon, but still powerful beyond mortal comprehension' to accomodate for lore regarding players' ability to face a Titan directly. Personally I will be a little dissappointed if Ulduar has something like "Avatar of X" or the like... again.

Not to mention Gorefiend in Shadowmoon Valley.

I'm a little late for the discussion of where the lore goes after Arthas is dead, but I feel it's worth bringing up. Someone mentioned that the Horde and the Alliance are at war again, and this is a major lore point. Major enough, I think, to carry an expansion. How, exactly?

If you look at the locations of the major horde and alliance cities, the most important being Stormwind and Ogrimmar, you'll realize that there's plenty of unused areas directly between each of them. The various islands, Gilneas, Hyjal... The major focus of the next expansion could be completely based on their war. There has been a lot of buildup towards this war for as long as WoW has been in existence, and it's been all drawn to the front due to the Battle for the Undercity. It's enough to keep players excited without necessarily needing some new big villain. At the same time, characters like Azshara could show up and be involved.

That would also set the stage pretty well for a Titan return - not only have we killed Aspects, ripped open their vaults and involved ourselves with demons, we're in a furious war with one another which is ripping Azeroth apart (not to mention messing shit up on other worlds and timelines).

Unfortunately for the Titans (and us) they wade in without checking up the facts (thanks for leaving the 3175 evil entities lying about Azeroth, you bastards) and get their first wave of minions crushed between the iron bootheel of the Alliance and ferocity of the Horde.

... of course, it's a just a good-guys-go-bonkers scenario, but it would make better sense than the Titans getting out the spanking belt while Horde and Alliance are just smoking the good weed in their peace pipes while doing some PVP in arenas and safely closed off battlegrounds.

Theres a lot of talk over The Lich King 'sparing us' throughout our adventures through Northrend. The answer could be revealed as:

- Ner'zhul's influence wanting to draw us to him: Conquer us when we're at our most powerful and claim our souls. Attempt to corrupt us, etc. (Pretty much what we all assume hes intending to do)
- Arthas' influence: trying to provoke us into coming to face him, so we can help him destroy Ner'thul in the eleventh hour. (A scenario like: THe Lich King is at 10% in Phase 5 and Arthas feels the time is right to make his final move..)

I would be quite happy if 'the Lich King baiting us to him' story is ultimately concluded, in the final phases of the encounter itself in Icecrown, with the revelation it was Arthas's plan to bring us to him to help him destroy Ner'zhul (and maybe himself in the process). A last, selfless act.

Who is to say that Ner'zhul and Arthas are allowing it to happen with the same motivation in mind? We're all assuming it's because the Lich King wants to destroy us. Well, Ner'zhul does. Thats what the Poster-boy Lich King is saying. The WOTLK print material is saying he wants us. But why? Watch the cinematic again, you just get the feeling there is 'something else' going on in The Lich King's mind. Quiet introspection, calm contemplation? It doesn't seem too far fetched to wonder if theres something left in there that's just waiting for the opportune time to do this. (This, of course, is assuming that although Arthas and Ner'zhul 'are one' - there is still remnants of each within the common Lich King persona)

I just find the idea of us getting into Icecrown, confronting and killing Arthas, a little boring. I would say cliched, but a redemption would be equally cliched to many as well. The difference is, in our player arrogance, we're all expecting and assuming we'll kill him.

Isn't Ner'zhul just going to open up a whole bunch of portals and escape... again?

Then the blue dragonflight turn up and try to seal them all while hordes of crazed demons pour through.
With your raid in the middle of it all, and all sides hostile to you.

Such a situation would nicely involve the Warcraft 2 lore, Blue Dragons, Dreadlords and eventually Outland.

If Arthas wants us to help him kill Ner'zhul then why stop the Horde and Alliance forces at Wrathgate?

I am personally for killing the Lich King as one (Arthas and Ner'zhul), I just think the build up to confronting him can be handled with more exciting and lore-rich events/storylines than just lets say opening of gates inside SP.

What would be interesting to me is that in Icecrown the leading event does involve us becoming the servant of the Lich King and an implementation of dailies around that, where we fight back against KEB and Argent Crusade. I think it would be amazing to walk the corridors of Icecrown Citadel as a Scourge character, performing tasks for Arthas around the Citadel area. At the same time, a cure is being worked on to rid us of this "plauge" by the Alliance/Horde/Neutral factions.

The specific reason the Horde and Alliance combined forces was that divided, we could not battle Arthas and his forces. So I don't see how suddenly, last WoTLK patch hits, Alliance and Horde are still at war but are now able to battle Arthas and his forces. I see some sort of a "truce" between the two factions leading upto the Arthas encounter. I would also like to see the Blue Dragonflight rebuilt before this encounter and joining the fight with their new leader (Kalcegos).

Of course, the encounter itself can be used to further the War. At the end, as others have mentioned, Arthas wants redemption (and there is a belief that he can be "saved") and the Alliance forces want to save their "favourite son", but the Horde forces (Sylvannas maybe?) wants revenge and kill Arthas. Arthas does die in the process and ends the truce.

Someone mentioned that we should see a Titan in Ulduar, I just think that would be too soon and a Titan present in Ulduar corrupted by an old god doesn't make sense.

In terms of other raids we could see, considering Blizzard's track record, I think another Troll raid is at hand. There is the leader of the Ice Trolls - Frost King Malakk that could be the setup for another troll raid. WoWWiki lists his location as Gundrak.

Remember, they have the Ulduar patch to add to the Lich King Storyline. Just because the focus of the patch will be Ulduar doesn't mean that they can't add in a few more chains to hint at what's to come. Blizzard has been slowly building up this conclusion, I think it's safe to say that the last time we see Arthas before the Citadel won't be at Wrathgate. The Lich King can't be oblivious to what's going on in Ulduar...he likely has some hand in it as well.

Also, if we do see a Troll raid, I think an original concept would be for them to be doing something fishy with their gods.