World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 43

SpaceDrake · 09/26/08, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Falk

Not 100% sure about this, so don't quote me on it - it could also be the location the Alliance-side players turn in the quest that sparks the event. Bolvar's last thoughts are for the 'heroes' to shoulder his remaining responsibilities.

Damn, beaten. Yes, that's precisely it - if you look closely he's looking right up at the place where he was standing as a questgiver and where the players are presumably chilling while this goes down. He's looking right at the Alliance players as he's saying this. Granted it won't have as much impact for Horde players, but still.

Also concerning the NElf/Draenei and EK armies - there actually are a pretty hefty number of NElfs with the 7th Legion at Wintergarde, but there's a questline in Borean that deals with the Draenei. One of the Darkfallen was working covertly to keep the Draenei leashed in and not helping the armies on the ground, so that's why they aren't out in force too much.

Blayze · 09/26/08, 8:45 AM

Ummm, so am I the only one who thinks that maybe, just maybe the Lich King goated Tirion into doing this?

Agreed. The Lich King is two people, after all. He can't risk Arthas trying to break free at all (Even if it isn't possible, it might prove an unwanted distraction during a dangerous time). Surely anything that weakens Arthas empowers Ner'zhul. On a personal note, I'd love to see him using totems and other obvious Shaman abilities during the fight against him.

Rannasha · 09/26/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Blayze

On a personal note, I'd love to see him using totems and other obvious Shaman abilities during the fight against him.

Shaman abilities and spells are not drawn from a "magical background" like arcane magic is, they are requests to the elemental spirits that have to be actively granted by the spirits. Requests made with ill intent will not be easily granted. This is why in the "Rise of the Horde" novel, the Shamans that adopted the Warlock-magic saw their shamanistic abilities weaken and disappear.

Now, there are various places where enemy NPCs use totems or Shaman abilities anyway, think Mennu the Betrayer in SP or Fathom Lord Tidalvess in SSC. These NPCs might not have the best intentions, but they're not directly involved in extremely malevolent affairs and they call upon the spirits for defense against the aggressors, us.

I don't see how the Ner'Zuhl as the Lich King has any chance to see his requests granted by the spirits.

Starfire · 09/26/08, 10:06 AM

Or you know, there are malevolent elementals, like Ragnaros.

Myko · 09/26/08, 10:12 AM

That's why most mob totems are prefixed with "Corrupted" I would think.

Douglas · 09/26/08, 10:51 AM

(Delete, redundant.)

Emeraude · 09/26/08, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Rannasha

Shaman abilities and spells are not drawn from a "magical background" like arcane magic is, they are requests to the elemental spirits that have to be actively granted by the spirits. Requests made with ill intent will not be easily granted. This is why in the "Rise of the Horde" novel, the Shamans that adopted the Warlock-magic saw their shamanistic abilities weaken and disappear.

Now, there are various places where enemy NPCs use totems or Shaman abilities anyway, think Mennu the Betrayer in SP or Fathom Lord Tidalvess in SSC. These NPCs might not have the best intentions, but they're not directly involved in extremely malevolent affairs and they call upon the spirits for defense against the aggressors, us.

I don't see how the Ner'Zuhl as the Lich King has any chance to see his requests granted by the spirits.

Yes, but in Beyond the Dark Portal Ner'zhul forcefully made the elements obey his commands against the Alliance forces. Apparently he learned a new trick or two.

Zedd · 09/26/08, 2:14 PM

Elemental spirits themselves might not be influenced by the motives of their wielder, but only if the wielder respects the element he is calling upon.

Thats how I see shaman vs shaman (npc's or players) lorewise.

LucidityAxel · 09/26/08, 8:05 PM

The Elemental Spirits are a bit capricious and in human terms their motives usually portrayed as the desire to maintain "balance", not in terms of good or evil. These spirits can have no presence on worlds consumed by the Burning Legion, which is one reason why Shamanism died out amongst the Orcs once they fell under the Legion's influence.

Ragnaros and his ilk are elemental Eternals who were servants of the Old Gods on Azeroth before the Titans came. Lore-wise, I've never seen anything that suggests a connection between them and the Elemental Spirits.

Enova · 09/27/08, 8:48 PM

Well, this has certainly been a lot to read through in one night... (yeah, blame social life for not being around the forums in ages...) But I've seen some ineresting points being made here, so I'll toss in my few cents...

Originally Posted by shed

So Bolvar and Saurfang dead, who wants to bet they'll show up in Icecrown as bosses or something? Also about Varimathras/Malganis... My bet is Malganis will be the new 'leader' of the legion or whatever and will come back with Varimathras down the road in some instance/quest line.

Personally, I think that if the plague destroyed the Scourge forces at WG completely, it would probably make raising Bolvar and Saurfang jr impossible as well. However, I have been proven wrong before

As for who leads the Legion? Well, remember demons never truly die; it'd have to be Sargeras and his lieutenants, Archimonde and Kil'Jaden, as usual.

Originally Posted by Starfire

The deliciousness of... Saurfang's soul in Bolvar's body... How's that for a lore throwback?

In case I'm wrong on the above, I'll take it even further... How about both of them in the same body?

Originally Posted by Opioid

With every race getting death knights, I think Blizzard has thrown in another Draenei-level lore fuckup.

I always liked to consider the WoW time line as level based. As such, Exodar would have crashed at the time WoW started. it just makes more sense. That way, by the time you were fighting the Scourge, you'd have already been on Azeroth for quite a while, and you'd be familiar with the factions and conflicts. But yeah, they did fuck up badly for draenei on one account. Hint: Veteran of the third War :P

Originally Posted by Ultramax

It really makes the dreadlords look like complete chumps. Arthas "kills" them and after years of plotting their revenge they've manged to give him a cough.

That certainly made me laugh, but I'd love to see Arthas coughing when we get to fight him, even if it has no other effects.

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Your wild speculation makes sense, though quests to back it up would be helpful.

Sylvanas did know of her Royal A. Society making a plague, not getting around that one.

Harry Truman knew bout the atomic bombs too (well, d'oh), but I doubt he imagined what Hiroshima would look like after the mushroom cloud faded away. What I'm saying is, you can't be sure of the effects of a secret weapon until you actually go and try it out on the battlefield. And who's to say she was given full info? It's not uncommon for people in the high places to be kept out of the loop. Plausible deniability. For all we know, Sylvanas could have sworn it just destroys or frees the Scourge from the Lich King's mind link.

Originally Posted by _Paladino_

Another idea that crossed my mind was an event with Saurfang as a Death Knight and Bolvar as a Undead created by the plague (the new plague could have unknown secondary efects), that could end with Thrall and/or Varian giving the killing blows and then helping the players in Arthas event

Side effects? Aside from turning the Horde - Alliance ceasefire into a smoking crater? But yeah, that shows promise. I'd like to see more on that...

Originally Posted by Kumar

So, Tirion destroys the heart after making sure there is nothing to be redeemed. Makes sense to me. I have always been in favor of no redemption for Arthas. Maybe I am biased, as there was no redemption for Kael either.

Personally, I'd much rather see Ner'zhul redeemed. After all, Arthas just slaughtered some innocents because he was too afraid to actually fight some ghouls, then ran away from home like an emo teenager who thinks the whole world hates him cause he knows better, and then murdered his dad cause they had a disagreement. Ner'zhul tried to save his whole race by getting them out of Draenor, and he's still the one who got his body torn to shreds and had his soul stripped from his corpse only to be encased in a block of ice in the middle of nowhere. Heck, at least I can sympathize with the orc. I'd be feeling genocidal too if that happened to me.

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Yes, but in Beyond the Dark Portal Ner'zhul forcefully made the elements obey his commands against the Alliance forces. Apparently he learned a new trick or two.

Again, goes to prove what I just said above. Elements don't help you unless there's mutual respect. Obviously, the elements decided it was kinda okay for Ner'zhul to try to salvage what was left of his people.

Emeraude · 09/27/08, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Enova

Personally, I'd much rather see Ner'zhul redeemed. After all, Arthas just slaughtered some innocents because he was too afraid to actually fight some ghouls, then ran away from home like an emo teenager who thinks the whole world hates him cause he knows better, and then murdered his dad cause they had a disagreement. Ner'zhul tried to save his whole race by getting them out of Draenor, and he's still the one who got his body torn to shreds and had his soul stripped from his corpse only to be encased in a block of ice in the middle of nowhere. Heck, at least I can sympathize with the orc. I'd be feeling genocidal too if that happened to me.

Again, goes to prove what I just said above. Elements don't help you unless there's mutual respect. Obviously, the elements decided it was kinda okay for Ner'zhul to try to salvage what was left of his people.

Clearly you didn't read Beyond the Dark Portal. Ner'zhul's "Shamanism" wasn't exactly the same as that of the modern Shaman, when he used his powers he forcefully called upon the elements, they screamed out in agony, and the forms of the nature he commanded were deformed.

And no, Ner'zhul did not try to save his whole race, Ner'zhul tried to save himself, he cared nothing about his people or their troubles, a fact of which Kil'jaeden took great joy in reminding the shaman of....right before he ripped him apart piece by piece. ^_^

Originally Posted by Enova

Harry Truman knew bout the atomic bombs too (well, d'oh), but I doubt he imagined what Hiroshima would look like after the mushroom cloud faded away. What I'm saying is, you can't be sure of the effects of a secret weapon until you actually go and try it out on the battlefield. And who's to say she was given full info? It's not uncommon for people in the high places to be kept out of the loop. Plausible deniability. For all we know, Sylvanas could have sworn it just destroys or frees the Scourge from the Lich King's mind link.

Heh, we're not Warcraft characters who care about what she claims she knew or didn't know, we're players looking from the outside in. :p

Sylvanas knew about the Plague. She formed the Royal Apothecary Society, specifically to make a plague to wipe out the Scourge/Alliance forces that kept bothering them in their lands. The Apothecary Society does all of their dirt in their labs directly near the throne room. Based on the information available Sylvanas planned to strike with this new plague in Northrend at the Scourge. The only question is did she intend to strike at both the Alliance/Horde forces as well. The Alliance forces? I'm sure she intended to use it against them...eventually, not at Wrathgate while the Horde was coorporating with the Alliance though. The Horde, I'm not so sure. The Scourge? Most definitely.

muwatallis · 09/27/08, 11:24 PM

Aside from everything, i was just thinking what this brand new phasing technology can add to the game more than visual quest support. Could you imagine, a battle to take Gnomeregan back and send the gnomes home to let them resettle, having a brand new alliance city? Same going for trolls, a a huge charge back on Echo Isles and BUILD a brand new troll city with troll architecture, which, i've been dreaming for a very very long time. All this looks possible to me now, kinda feeling of eternal choices to improve the story and the game in the same parallel of the lore, towards better.

SpaceDrake · 09/28/08, 1:08 AM

The real problem there becomes raw design resources/time. Even if they're rolling in cash the WoW team can only be so big while remaining effective, and the finite amount of time and energy they possess must be used properly. As much as I'd like to see Gnomer or a troll city, how much return would it be for the effort?

Starfire · 09/28/08, 1:38 AM

It's a waste of resource, now, sure. But in another expansion or so, it could be a good use of resources. Imagine if Gnomeregan and Echo Isles was content for level 90s... or even 88-90 or something. Gnomeregan and Echo Isles, new cities for Maelstrom/South Seas expansion or something! (Think of it given their physical location... Gnomeregan could easily (for lack of a better word, since I don't know the correct word) have an underground port or something with Gnomish turtle-subs.

If we really want to get crazy, Cavern of Times: Gnomeregan, showing the rise of Thermaplugg (and maybe even helping him rise). So then we'd have three Gnomeregans >.>

And this my friends, is why we love WoW.

Ashen · 09/28/08, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by SpaceDrake

The real problem there becomes raw design resources/time. Even if they're rolling in cash the WoW team can only be so big while remaining effective, and the finite amount of time and energy they possess must be used properly. As much as I'd like to see Gnomer or a troll city, how much return would it be for the effort?

Completely going off of my imagination here, but work with me for just a moment.

World of Warcraft: The Tides of Doom

Major Neutral City of Undermine, the Goblin Capital.

New Gnomeregan - With Undermine, home of the Goblins, occupying such a central role in the efforts of the Alliance in the Southern Seas and the Maelstrom, the Gnomes have decided to rebuild their city, right near the Goblins. Being economic and technological rivals, the Gnomes seek to claim a major stake in all advancements made from this point onward. After all, they can't let the goblins have ALL the fun. (Introduce Gnomish and Goblin Submarines too =P)

New Troll Capital - With the Southern Seas, SEVERAL things can be solved for the Trolls. There will be some major Jungle tribes, including the homeland of the Zandalar trolls. Furthermore, the Southern Seas is the last place that might hold some answers to the mysteries that were the old Well of Eternity. Could the Trolls learn more of their ancient ancestry, and how the Night Elves came to be? Maybe there was a transition race, one that existed as a fusion of Troll and Night Elf, before the evolution was completed? These things would surely motivate the Trolls to establish a new capital, close to what could be a new homeland.

Now put in the phasing technology, and help them build it. What starts as settlements at Level 78 - 81, becomes a full fledged city by Level 90.

Edit 1: Undermine is the city, Kezan is the island.