Matthias Lehner represents the sad remains of Arthas' humanity, a personification of what he threw away (as the Frozen Heart).

He's a young, innocent but hopeless spirit. Arthas' humanity has given up the fight, and seems to essentially serve as a warning to others: it is a hopeless situation, and inevitably the Lich King will prevail.

I wonder if Tirion really did hurt the Lich King when he destroyed the Frozen Heart, and if maybe that will be the state in which we find him in the Citadel: unexpectedly weakened by the loss of his humanity. Equally likely, the loss of that humanity may drive him to even more extreme acts, essentially driving him 'mad'. Although we've already seen more than enough endbosses that are either 'weakened' or 'insane', so I hope they have other, unique plans for this particular boss.

Couldn't Matthias Lehner's act of hiding you from the Faceless Ones be because even Arthas has an enemy in anything related to "The forgotten one" beneath azjolnerub (Ygg-Saron?). If the player is in a position of power to be able to bring harm to the Lich King (but yet positively corruptable), Arthas wouldn't want us influenced by another great (but rival) power. He wants to corrupt us himself, or kill us if it fails, not see us fall into the hands of his enemy. Thus, he hides us.

I don't see a problem with him being "insane" if it's not used as justification for why we're capable of killing him nor the motivation for killing him. The "weakened" card is definitely well beyond played-out at this point, though.

Given the nature of an MMO it really can't be any way else. Personally, I don't mind it; great battles will always be a mixture of great heroes and the forces that support them. We're just those supporting forces.

Although it will be ironic to read about how Maiev and Akama killed Illidan when Akama ran off halfway through the fight and Maiev couldn't drop a trap within 100 yards of his ass to help us if she tried.

The hiding is in response to the player accidentally touching Arthas' heart. The "him" is pretty clearly the Lich King. Other interpretations just don't make any sense. The Faceless Ones are Old God support scum themselves; the ones that are killed for the blood actually invoke Yogg-Saron.

Arthas isn't the only power in Northrend. Yogg-Saron and all the other icky, insane stuff associated with him was there first.

Well, Arthas has the 'advantage' of having so many enemies. Illidan only had Akama and Maiev as real enemies, the rest of Outland seemed to consider him more as an annoyance than a serious threat.

But Arthas has tons of people who'd want nothing more than to kill him themselves. Sylvanas, Darion Mograine, and Tirion Fordring are the primary players, though I can see Jaina playing a part too, and Muradin Bronzebeard said he was going after Arthas last time I saw him as well. And that's just named characters. Entire kingdoms want to see Arthas dead.


I'm guessing Arthas will be a fight with a lot of NPC's helping us.

The idea of a 'weakened' Arthas is sort of moot. Illidan rebuffed him, Forsaken tore free, so he's already 'weakened' compared to the Lich King technically responsible for the first invasion of Scourge...when Arthas first united with him. Additionally, I would point out that while Arthas is clearly individually powerful and has magical might, it's been shown that while he can effectively kill minor but powerful characters with one mighty blow, such characters are enough of a threat to him that he takes the time to do so.

Think about how Arthas behaves throughout Northrend, and even from a story stance before. When does he expose himself? When victory is assured, or he percieves it as such. When he is supported with the complete mass of his followers. Additionally, it's clear that when he grants power to an underling, that's a direct portion of his own [when underling dies, it's assumed to return]. Does Arthas wipe out the Trolls on his own, even though we assume he damn well could? No, he gets you to do it, then appears and makes you feel small while elevating the mastermind/liar in his employ. You beat up Drakuru, he pops up again, makes you feel small, takes his power back/slays the dude. Why on Azeroth would he let 'us insects' live if we've proven to be a thorn in his foot? He has the power to crush us, yes?

Because he percieves that he can corrupt us and/or get further use out of us fighting his OTHER enemies in a war on attrition. Well, if he can wipe out all his enemies, why doesn't he? Exactly, he can't without over-exposing himself and depleting his resources. So he waits for all his enemies to fight each other, waiting for the right opportunity to sweep in and claim victory.

Further support: the whole Death Knight intro. He sets up a super elaborate trap and only appears when victory is within his grasp. Step in, step on the bug, leave; that is, until the power of Light's Hope [clearly named for a reason!] becomes an 'unforseen obstacle' [plot device] of power and thwarts him. Does he stay and fight? Does he exert his full power to win? No, he retreats because he doesn't want Sylvanas going 'hey, he's spent, time to Shadowstep in and kick his ass!'. Also, that plague gas, from Wrathgate? Arthas is visibly affected and is effectively limping off the field to return to his fortress.

Saying Arthas is beyond a group of adventurers with the correct items of power after they've breached his meticulous defenses, assuming they can somehow keep him from recalling all his power at once, is actually kind of silly. A group of 5? sure, toast. But 10 dedicated souls with items of power rivaled only by [supposedly] faction leaders, Maive/Akama, Arthas himself, and a few mighty agents of powers? 25? Why else do you think Arthas throws walls of 'something else', the Scourge, other foes, making us break through walls and fight dragons raised by means otherwise beyond his power? A mastermind need not have absolute power to win, just be powerful and properly get everyone else weakened by whatever means necessary...Arthas shows all the signs of being a strong mastermind, not an Archimode level power. That is, until and unless he recalls all his magic at once through some kind of focus to smite attackers.

I find the trend that Nemantopia brings up, that of The Lich King as a tactician and manipulator, rather interesting: When you follow Arthas through WC3 and TFT, he is anything but subtle or devious. There is an objective, you take Arthas and go smash it. Infected civilians? Kill them. Your old mentor carrying the urn of your father's ashes after you commited patricide, but you need the urn to raise a necromancer you also killed earlier on? Kill him and take it. Elves and Gates in the way of the Sunwell? Smash them. Archmages putting up a shield through Dalaran? Kill them. Dalaran need to be destroyed? Summon Archimonde and his demonic hordes. Arthas, through the RTS storyline, has been nothing but a wrecking ball. Even when he coerces Illidan into consuming the Skull of Gul'Dan, what do they do first? They fight.

It seems as though Ner'Zhul's contribution to The Lich King has tempered Arthas somewhat.

One thing that I don't see people mentioning is the future dungeon(s?) in grizzly hills. In the stump of the fallen world-tree, there's a little room with a summoning stone (inactive) and at least 2 places where instance entrances look like they should go...

I strongly suspect that they'll just be 5-man dungeons, but it's interesting, as I have no idea where they'll go with these instances.

It would seem consistent with Blizzard's new trend to release solo and 5 man content in the same patch as raiding content, even when sometimes it's completely unrelated. Sure, Sunwell Plateau, Magister's Terrace and Isle of Quel Danas were all part of the same even. But they also launched Netherwing Ledge, Skettis and Ogri'la in the BT patch if I remember correctly.

Compared to a single large patch fore Dire Maul back in the days, it does seem like a slightly better option. Also, it seems as a very likely option; they announced what raid content will be released, but just because they cleverly left out any other form of content doesn't stop them from working on it.

The loose ends around the world tree and Ursoc the bear god chain would make it a likely candidate for some sequels. Also, the lack of anything meaningful in Crystalsong Forest puts it up there in the list for things to be added along the way. The question is, is there a connection, or will there be separate patches?

I never knew Vordrassil had a summoning stone.. there were certainly no rumours of instances there, although it's plausible that there would be an entrance to Azjol-Nerub there, if not the fabled Yogg-Saron raid. I was always disappointed that Vordrassil wasn't developed more, would've been a great place to have some Faceless Ones and whatnot.

How does this work, exactly? Considering you find a note about the departure of Naxxramas *before* Darion and the crew are freed from the Lich King.

So, I've just done Obsidian Sanctum for the first time yesterday, and I must admit that lore-wise, it's the odd one out right now. Naxxramas and Malygos have big stories all over the place, but are we really just killing this guy because he's.. black?

From out-of-game source, I've pieced together that those strange blue dragon lieutenants are Twilight Dragons, the result of Lady Sinestra and her Master's deal with the Dragonmaw clan at the Netherwing Ledge. So are we to assume that the Chamber of Aspects waygate takes us to the Obsidian Sanctum as it exists in Outland? Looking at the sky and the style of the mountains, it does look remarkably like Shadowmoon Valley, leading me to believe that Sartharion and the portal he protects are not too far away from Neltharion himself, assuming he is still alive and somewhat sane.

EDIT: If Deathwing is in fact locked up in Grim Batol, then whoever leads the effort in Outland (or wherever they are) may one day try to use the Sanctum portal as a way into Azeroth? This would point to Grim Batol as a possible future raid instance, and if Yogg-Saron really is 'just' a boss in Ulduar, this might be the Mystery Raid... idle speculation is so much fun.

I think Liebestod meant that the Ebon Hand were initially killed fighting off Naxxramas. The Acherus starting quests exist after Naxx was driven off in the timeline. The civilians you slaughter as a death knight outside the town hall say something to the effect of "So what that Naxxramas left, Acherus death knights are here killing everyone!"

I don't believe non-death knights got any timeline on this, though. The death knights themselves are in a weird little lore pocket - from their perspective - once they get out into the world. For obvious reasons all the quests in WoTLK are designed assuming that the player is not a death knight with that lore background. This is unavoidable without massive resources committed to what is basically flavor (have alternate quest text if player=deathknight), but it does exist.

I notice everyone is taking this at face value. What if Matthias is not protecting us, but instead marking us? The Lich King has already seen us in numerous locations and spared us for later. He sure seems to be plotting something. Why assume Matthias is Arthas's "good" portion? Makes sense to me as just another layer of his web of lies and corruption.

On that note - anyone else think that Army of the Damned should be a daily? To "remind us of how wicked he is", of course. Because we're all good folk and loathe this action, not because it's just fun as hell.

The Obsidian Sanctum isn't in Outland but just someplace the Black Dragonflight is holding it's eggs (probably some volcano). Although it would be neat if it did end up being that it's the remains of Neltharion's Lair that was to the east of Hellfire. I just assume that all the Sanctums attach to someplace on Azeroth or something thats pretty much part of Azeroth such as the Emerald Dream.

Deathwing isn't locked up in Grim Batol but just using it as his hideout deep inside it's many tunnels but I'd imagine if it's added the story will end up being that the Red Dragonflight knew he was hiding there and has been looking for him. If he was locked up he wouldn't of been able to recover the eggs after Sinestra's death. Before Malygos it was always assumed the death of an Aspect would cause terrible problems and so the other Aspects never went to try to kill him but rather chased him off. Now after Malygos' death I could see the next target being Deathwing possibly although I think the difference between the Blue and Black Dragonflights is that the Blue Dragonflight isn't all insane and can have a heir chosen unlike the Black Dragonflight.

I agree: It seems as though Matthias Lehner could be some extension of the Lich King's will. He is continuing the trend of "you see, you're no different from how I was only a few years ago" he has been cultivating in us as we slash and burn our way through Northrend. It could also be seen as a ploy by The Lich King to rid himself of Arthas' Heart; perhaps the Heart somehow still contained some of the innocent (gullbile, easily misguided, somewhat blind) earnestness Arthas showed early in his adventures and The Lich King perceived this as a hindrance?

It's even mentioned in the questline that he wanted to get rid of the heart since it was what made him still human and he could die. I think Ner'zhul just wanted to get rid of the last bit of Arthas that was holding him back.

Sure Metzen said years ago they were a perfectly merged being but a lot has changed lorewise since then (IE: Draenei and Eredar) and the lore for the Lich King has been much more heavily developed and I think it's pretty clear now that the Lich King is just Ner'zhul.

It should be noted that Arthas's decision to rid of his heart is, apparently, made during his fight with Illidan Stormrage, shortly before he merges with Ner'zhul.

Pierced Heart - Your heart has been grazed by Illidan's glaives. If only you could rid yourself of this useless thing...

This part is easily missed since most custom UIs don't display debuffs on vehicles in an easy to see manner.

I'm going to throw this out there, what if Yogg Saron is being built up as a larger menace to be dealt with in a later expansion. In the War of the Ancients trilogy a mysterious voice seemed to be what drove Deathwing insane and taught him how to create the demon soul, it is also possible the same voice (being) created the Naga. Maybe it is Yogg Saron and there is more lore around that to be built up. It does seem like a good hook into a maelstrom expansion with Azshara, Deathwing and Yogg as the big villains.

Is the Saronite cave in Icecrown then also a lead up to another expansion? The voices, and the slaves being driven mad. What you posted sounds plausible, but I fear that Yogg Saron might make an appearance KilJaeden style in WotLK.

I can confirm that it's not a summoning stone. The two blind passageways leading out of the room could easily be turned into SSC-style instance entrances in a later patch, though. Right now they seem awkward and unfinished. The fallen world tree is kind of like Oshu'gun -- a graphic icon of the zone but without a whole lot of quests requiring you to do much inside it. There's definitely possibility for turning this into an instance hub with Yogg-Saron ties. Instances that lead you down into the roots of the tree, etc. But it's defintely not for sure -- Oshu'gun fit into the demon/naaru lore of Outland but never got turned into much.


The fact that the Matthias chain also has you be Arthas, and use his powers, fits into the cultivating-the-player interpretation. With Drakuru it was similar: use you to do things for the Lich King and show you the power he has the ability to grant. The Drakuru chain in Zul'Drak also involves the player being chosen for attention.