Is the Saronite cave in Icecrown then also a lead up to another expansion? The voices, and the slaves being driven mad. What you posted sounds plausible, but I fear that Yogg Saron might make an appearance KilJaeden style in WotLK.
Very possible, but it doesn't have to change much. Remember, "old gods" is plural. Different sources talk about there being from three to five of them left.
And remember, killing all of them would be a Bad Thing, as far as the titans are concerned -- it would break the world. Even if one's a final encounter in this expansion, I doubt we'll actually kill it.
I'm going to throw this out there, what if Yogg Saron is being built up as a larger menace to be dealt with in a later expansion. In the War of the Ancients trilogy a mysterious voice seemed to be what drove Deathwing insane and taught him how to create the demon soul, it is also possible the same voice (being) created the Naga. Maybe it is Yogg Saron and there is more lore around that to be built up. It does seem like a good hook into a maelstrom expansion with Azshara, Deathwing and Yogg as the big villains.
The Old Gods drove Deathwing crazy, this much we do know. I don't know if a specific Old God was named however. The Naga, IF I recall correctly are born from the emanations (sp?) of the imploded Well of Eternity, but they also could be creations of the Old Gods since my memory is a bit fuzzy on the subject.
Would be a interesting twist if in killing or weakening Yogg-Saron, we unwittingly remove what was a curtailing force on the Lich King's power and influence.
The Old Gods drove Deathwing crazy, this much we do know. I don't know if a specific Old God was named however. The Naga, IF I recall correctly are born from the emanations (sp?) of the imploded Well of Eternity, but they also could be creations of the Old Gods since my memory is a bit fuzzy on the subject.
Something whispered into Azshara's mind and got her consent for the transformation. I have trouble seeing how it could have been anything other than an old god or one of their agents.
The Old Gods drove Deathwing crazy, this much we do know. I don't know if a specific Old God was named however. The Naga, IF I recall correctly are born from the emanations (sp?) of the imploded Well of Eternity, but they also could be creations of the Old Gods since my memory is a bit fuzzy on the subject.
It was confirmed a couple years back that the Naga are a result of a deal with the Old Gods in order to bring the Old Gods more into the lore.
We know we wouldn't be killing Yogg-Saron due to the ramifications it would have according to the new lore and it explains why there are no actual dead Old Gods (the one in Darkshore seems more like it's sealed by the glaive in its head). The Maelstrom expansion would probably deal with whatever Old God Aszhara made a pact with and the Emerald Dream expansion would deal with whatever Old God(s) is causing the Nightmare. Even C'Thun is not actually dead as all we did was fight back a manifestation of him.
I notice everyone is taking this at face value. What if Matthias is not protecting us, but instead marking us? The Lich King has already seen us in numerous locations and spared us for later. He sure seems to be plotting something. Why assume Matthias is Arthas's "good" portion? Makes sense to me as just another layer of his web of lies and corruption.
On that note - anyone else think that Army of the Damned should be a daily? To "remind us of how wicked he is", of course. Because we're all good folk and loathe this action, not because it's just fun as hell.
Well I take it at face value because most of the time when I'm being duped by the villains via quests I'm informed that I've been duped before it's all over.:P (Jokes aside)
If Arthas wanted to demoralize me directly he could have done the same things Matthias did, but put his "I'm the awesome Lich King" flare on it. Arthas has no problem flaunting his power as he's shown us time and time again to remind us we're "this" big to him. Matthias on the other hand did almost everything reluctantly, he was depressed about it the entire time, void of all hope. I never got the sense that I was being manipulated when doing quests for this lost child. If Arthas wanted to show me how incredibly cruel/powerful he was he could have been at each of those sites himself and shown me.
Sure, it would be cool if this was a round-about way of Arthas trying to bring us into the fold, but the point is, was that there is no point, he didn't NEED to do it this way. He didn't discard his heart because he wanted to bring the player into the fold, he discarded his heart because it directly contained what he thought was the last points of his humanity. The last tiny bit of his humanity gave us insight into the type of monster he is, which is why I took everything this child said at face value, this lost hope of Humanity's most wayward son.
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For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
Assuming that Matthias is a tool controlled by The Lick King, he would go to such lengths, and show us his presumed weakness because it would either;
1) Simply draw out Tirion Fordring
2) Make us (the character) focus too much time and effort chasing shadows while The Lick King spent time hiding his true weakness(es).
3) To show us that he no longer has any weakness (demoralizing?)
One could make sense, as The Lich King seems to be fighting on too many fronts (both the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade are with the help of the player conquering and reclaiming vast areas in Icecrown), and because of this simply cannot launch an offensive against Tirion. Another supporting point to 1) would be that Tirion would be too well protected, and The Lich King would lose more than he gained on a frontal attack. In addition, a frontal attack could have Tirion slip out the back door and the entire battle would be for naught.
Two does not admittedly make sense, it is just idle speculation, but personally the answer I'm hoping to be the correct one.
Three is a bit of a "Ha ha, you guys just wasted so much time running willy-nilly looking for clues but failed". I guess The Lich King could take some sort of morbid pleasure in gloating about our misfortune, it still seems an awful lot of hassle to go through, to have us show up at his doorstep, instead of just giving us the good old chop somewhere halfway through the quest-series.
If we on the contrary follow the train of thought that leaves Matthias Lehner an independent remain of Arthas' earlier days, and completely cut off from The Lich King's will, what is Matthias' point? What is he hoping to achieve? If Matthias is independent from the will of Arthas, is Matthias trying to;
1) Help us
2) Hinder us.
To be honest, I don't find the answer leaning in either direction. Sure, he hides us from the "eyes" of the Faceless Ones under Icecrown Citadel, but doing so might easily (as mentioned earlier in this thread) be because Arthas himself wants us shielded from the eyes of his enemy Yogg Saron.
So far the only result seems to be that Mograine and the player character has realized that Arthas is beyond redemption. This is somewhat disappointing, not because Arthas is beyond redemption, but because it feels like a "Yeah, What's next Charlie Brown?" or "Surprised?" moment.
All in all I agree with Emeraude, and I'm hoping that there's more to this quest line being developed as we speak.
I never got the sense that I was being manipulated when doing quests for this lost child.
"Even the mighty wyrms had to heed his call. How is a simple mortal like you going to resist him?"
"The prince's true power wasn't his ability to make armies out of corpses... that was easy. But killing his own men, with whom he'd shared many battles... the prince's true power was his ability to do what had to be done."
He doesn't sound too much like a lost child to me. He sounds a bit like The Lich King.
"Even the mighty wyrms had to heed his call. How is a simple mortal like you going to resist him?"
"The prince's true power wasn't his ability to make armies out of corpses... that was easy. But killing his own men, with whom he'd shared many battles... the prince's true power was his ability to do what had to be done."
He doesn't sound too much like a lost child to me. He sounds a bit like The Lich King.
You're reading too much into it. You are a simple mortal. He asked a valid question.
The 2nd statement is just that, an explanation as to what type of person you're facing. There was no praise in it, there was hesitation and reluctance.
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For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
It was confirmed a couple years back that the Naga are a result of a deal with the Old Gods in order to bring the Old Gods more into the lore.
We know we wouldn't be killing Yogg-Saron due to the ramifications it would have according to the new lore and it explains why there are no actual dead Old Gods (the one in Darkshore seems more like it's sealed by the glaive in its head). The Maelstrom expansion would probably deal with whatever Old God Aszhara made a pact with and the Emerald Dream expansion would deal with whatever Old God(s) is causing the Nightmare. Even C'Thun is not actually dead as all we did was fight back a manifestation of him.
All that was said was that the Titans couldn't kill the Old Gods for some reason back then. Doesn't mean the same rationale applies now, or it could mean that the negative affects manifest gradually somehow.
C'Thun seems to be really, honestly dead now. There's no reason to believe that he survived, or that we were only fighting an avatar or something. The Darkshore Old God as well, I don't think we'll be hearing from anytime soon. So I think Old Gods are very killable now.
All that was said was that the Titans couldn't kill the Old Gods for some reason back then. Doesn't mean the same rationale applies now, or it could mean that the negative affects manifest gradually somehow.
C'Thun seems to be really, honestly dead now. There's no reason to believe that he survived, or that we were only fighting an avatar or something. The Darkshore Old God as well, I don't think we'll be hearing from anytime soon. So I think Old Gods are very killable now.
No it clearly was said in Ulduar that the death of a Old God would of meant Azeroth being destroyed.
# Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
# Brann Bronzebeard says: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
# Kadrak says: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
I think it's pretty likely the C'Thun we defeated was merely a manifestation of him that was being summoned in by the Twin Emperors and not the actual full Old God. It was mentioned that the Old God in Darkshore is likely not really dead as the Twilight Hammer was trying to release it as the glaive in its head is likely what keeps it from regenerating. Although it isn't known whether the creature in Darkshore is a Old God or just one of their minions.
No it clearly was said in Ulduar that the death of a Old God would of meant Azeroth being destroyed.
I think it's pretty likely the C'Thun we defeated was merely a manifestation of him that was being summoned in by the Twin Emperors and not the actual full Old God. It was mentioned that the Old God in Darkshore is likely not really dead as the Twilight Hammer was trying to release it as the glaive in its head is likely what keeps it from regenerating. Although it isn't known whether the creature in Darkshore is a Old God or just one of their minions.
I remember a Blue Post back in the days of AQ40 which stated that C'Thun is only "weakened" by the players after the fight in Ahn'Qiraj. Unfortunately I can't find it now. But overall the Kil'Jaeden model makes sense (weakened or summoned form of some uber boss) when you consider the dialog from the Halls of Stone.
Either that, or, as the bolded part in Leviathon's post suggests, the "Old Gods" is a plural, and they can be killed in the singular. I.e. in order to not destroy Azeroth you cannot kill the very last "Old God".
Late edit (sorry); What if the Titans failed to identify which one of the Old Gods was directly linked to, or responsible for the host<->parasite existence of Azeroth<->Old Gods. Following this train of thought the Old Gods were different in terms of power, and if we assume there are some dead ones around (Darkshore, C'thun) how far up the scale is Yogg Saron? Either way we're certainly looking to face more of them in the future.
Would be a interesting twist if in killing or weakening Yogg-Saron, we unwittingly remove what was a curtailing force on the Lich King's power and influence.
Something like this is actually very plausible. Yes, the Scourge are the dominant force in Northrend. We've seen the Lich King extend his reach to Trolls and Vyrkul, yet the Storm Peaks are surprisingly quiet considering they're right next to Icecrown. It's entirely reasonable to accept that whilst Loken himself might be dead, deeper within the halls of Ulduar is Yogg-Saron who is manipulating the Titan constructs in a similar manner to how the Qiraji were/are controlled by C'thun. We know that the Twilight peeps are running around Northrend and that Yogg-Saron is probably manipulating/behind the Faceless Ones in The Old Kingdom area of Ahn'kahet. Why not let it be that 3.2 brings Yogg-Saron into being, we deal with him and his minions and then Arthas strikes. I mean Arthas waited for five years in Icecrown Citadel before beginning his assault against the Horde and Alliance to turn them against one another.
No it clearly was said in Ulduar that the death of a Old God would of meant Azeroth being destroyed.
I don't think that's true -- I believe it was said that purging the old gods (plural) would destroy Azeroth. I don't think none can die, I just think all can't die.
(Though I'd be hesitant to reduce their numbers down to one. That one would gain far, far too much leverage if we did that.)
I don't think that's true -- I believe it was said that purging the old gods (plural) would destroy Azeroth. I don't think none can die, I just think all can't die.
(Though I'd be hesitant to reduce their numbers down to one. That one would gain far, far too much leverage if we did that.)
My question is, is it that the Titans couldn't purge the Old Gods, or that they couldn't be purged period? I think it could raise an interesting lore point if this "Curse of Flesh", and the unique relationship between us and the Old Gods it implies, gives us the ability to attack and defeat the Old Gods (with some mighty powerful help from other sources, of course) without any negative repercussions. Of course, that could just be the paladin in me wanting to kill the big baddies and have them stay dead for once.
You're reading too much into it. You are a simple mortal. He asked a valid question.
The 2nd statement is just that, an explanation as to what type of person you're facing. There was no praise in it, there was hesitation and reluctance.
Considering that the slaughter of his own troops must have occurred after he defeated Mal'ganis unless there's been a truly major retcon to that timeline, that action was only necessary in terms of serving the Lich King, so the very act of referring to it as necessary is a pretty pro-Lich King point of view. I could see this viewing of what was said if it were in respect to Arthas burning his own ships and then turning on the mercenaries he used to do so, but when he did this, he was pretty much done going after of the enemies he came to Northrend to fight.
My question is, is it that the Titans couldn't purge the Old Gods, or that they couldn't be purged period? I think it could raise an interesting lore point if this "Curse of Flesh", and the unique relationship between us and the Old Gods it implies, gives us the ability to attack and defeat the Old Gods (with some mighty powerful help from other sources, of course) without any negative repercussions. Of course, that could just be the paladin in me wanting to kill the big baddies and have them stay dead for once.
It said that they were a malignant parasite. Removing them would also destroy the host.
The info gained from the HoS event also indicates (Some believe it does, others do not) that the Old Gods were not here the first time the Titans visited the world.
I don't think that's true -- I believe it was said that purging the old gods (plural) would destroy Azeroth. I don't think none can die, I just think all can't die.
(Though I'd be hesitant to reduce their numbers down to one. That one would gain far, far too much leverage if we did that.)
I think they just used the plural form to indicate killing any in general would result in a loss of Azeroth as if it meant killing them all I think it would of specifically said that.
Originally Posted by Kuthumii
It said that they were a malignant parasite. Removing them would also destroy the host.
The info gained from the HoS event also indicates (Some believe it does, others do not) that the Old Gods were not here the first time the Titans visited the world.
It also explains why there is a Harbinger of them in Arcatraz which says they 'span the universe as countless as the stars' and the Old God looking creature the Arrakoa were summoning in Shadowmoon. Seems pretty likely the Old Gods are a parasitic type creature that goes to other worlds and attempts to corrupt them and possibly goes specifically after Titan created worlds.
It also explains why there is a Harbinger of them in Arcatraz which says they 'span the universe as countless as the stars' and the Old God looking creature the Arrakoa were summoning in Shadowmoon. Seems pretty likely the Old Gods are a parasitic type creature that goes to other worlds and attempts to corrupt them and possibly goes specifically after Titan created worlds.
If this is the case and they were not originally present on Azeroth, that would also indicate that worlds can exist in some form without them, making it likely that A) the Titans just don't know of a way to remove them without destroying a world; or B) that the "curse of the flesh", being a result of the Old Gods, would be affected by removing the Old Gods, and thus killing the vast majority of the denizens of Azeroth, not necessarily the world itself. Either way, our knowledge OOC of these things is greater than the knowledge that the leaders of Azeroth have, so I suspect that if the Old Gods CAN be killed other than destroying the world to get rid of them (a third possible meaning of the titans' conclusions), we will probably find out what happens when we do kill one at some point. Even with entities like the Explorer's League gaining such knowledge, we have little reason to believe that said leaders would change their decisions just in case such warnings were correct if they were faced with a threat from an Old God and saw a possibility to kill it.
The mini-event in HoS clearly states that the old gods are parasitic, necrotic symbiotes. That's pretty conclusively proving that the Old Gods were not here, and were somehow introduced to Azeroth after the Titan's initial visit. It also seems likely that, since they are symbiotic, killing any one Old God will have a massive systemic, cataclysmic effect on world.
The mini-event in HoS clearly states that the old gods are parasitic, necrotic symbiotes. That's pretty conclusively proving that the Old Gods were not here, and were somehow introduced to Azeroth after the Titan's initial visit. It also seems likely that, since they are symbiotic, killing any one Old God will have a massive systemic, cataclysmic effect on world
The question is whether or not it's a case of "killing any one" or "killing the wrong one(s)". Certainly the demise of the Old God in Darkshore (Master's Glaive) did not cause Azeroth to wink out of existence (though granted, we do not know how long ago that Old God was slain, nor how powerful that particular God's hold on Azeroth was).
So is this going to be Blizzard conveniently choosing to just let us have a go at the unimportant ones, or are we not going to be facing them any time soon at all?
My guess is that we get an addition to this conundrum in the Ulduar patch.
If this is the case and they were not originally present on Azeroth, that would also indicate that worlds can exist in some form without them, making it likely that A) the Titans just don't know of a way to remove them without destroying a world; or B) that the "curse of the flesh", being a result of the Old Gods, would be affected by removing the Old Gods, and thus killing the vast majority of the denizens of Azeroth, not necessarily the world itself.
At what point did people think worlds could not exist without Old Gods? Draenor (Outland) did. We already know that they can exist without them. The Azeroth Old Gods not being native to Azeroth aren't indicators that worlds can exist without them.....not sure why you think it is.
Did you miss the part where they are now malignant parasites? Just because a host existed without the parasite before doesn't mean it can afterward, as the parasite has rooted itself, thus becoming malignant.
Though, I won't argue the point that killing them could just kill the creatures affected by the "Curse of Flesh" and not the world, to the Titans that is probably just as bad though.
I would like to know, if they aren't from Azeroth, where did they come from?
The question is whether or not it's a case of "killing any one" or "killing the wrong one(s)". Certainly the demise of the Old God in Darkshore (Master's Glaive) did not cause Azeroth to wink out of existence (though granted, we do not know how long ago that Old God was slain, nor how powerful that particular God's hold on Azeroth was).
So is this going to be Blizzard conveniently choosing to just let us have a go at the unimportant ones, or are we not going to be facing them any time soon at all?
My guess is that we get an addition to this conundrum in the Ulduar patch.
We are also not certain that the Old God in Darkshore is dead. If it is, why would a Titan leave such a powerful weapon behind? We cannot say if any are dead, so Blizzard is not conveniently choosing anything, they haven't told us much.
At what point did people think worlds could not exist without Old Gods? Draenor (Outland) did. We already know that they can exist without them. The Azeroth Old Gods not being native to Azeroth aren't indicators that worlds can exist without them.....not sure why you think it is.
Did you miss the part where they are now malignant parasites? Just because a host existed without the parasite before doesn't mean it can afterward, as the parasite has rooted itself, thus becoming malignant.
Though, I won't argue the point that killing them could just kill the creatures affected by the "Curse of Flesh" and not the world, to the Titans that is probably just as bad though.
I would like to know, if they aren't from Azeroth, where did they come from?
It seems very likely that Draenor did or does have a Old God(s) if what the Arrakoa were summoning was one. Considering it has elemental lords and whatnot it seems very likely Draenor was very similar to Azeroth.
I think the Curse of Flesh is more a result of only Yogg-Saron and not the other Old Gods acting with him. Just seems more likely that the Old Gods are acting on their own and doing there own things to try to affect Azeroth based on where they were imprisoned. It just happens to be that Yogg-Saron was imprisoned near where the Titans were constructing the Vrykul, Dwarves and etc. and was able to affect them and manipulate Loken into madness.
Maybe each of the Old Gods just attached themselves to a part of Azeroth that made it so that if they were destroyed it would cause larger problems and so destroying Yogg Saron would of killed those affected or descended from those affected by the Curse. Maybe the Emerald Dream would of been destroyed if they killed the one affecting the Emerald Dream for example also.
12/08/08, 2:51 PM
