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Old 11/19/09, 3:33 PM   #6796
Mman
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Shattered Hand
With the gating system though they could easily exclude those files until that portion of Icecrown was opened up. Then treat each new wing opening like a small patch, filling in those files.

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Old 11/19/09, 4:29 PM   #6797
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
I suspect the results wouldn't be worth the effort. Unless they're very scrupulous about model matching you can wind up with minor variance which can vastly impact a fight.

For instance, don't underestimate how important a minor difference in hitbox size can be. A tiny hit box on a boss that chains or AOEs (KT blocks, Thorim Lightning, Beasts Paralytic Toxin) can vastly inflate the difficulty of some mechanics, while a huge hit box is "easymode." Conversely a huge hit box can run into parry issues (melee is not actually behind the boss) and range to boss-centered AOE abilities (Gormokk stomp).

Testing something with hitbox size X and having it go live with size Y can make a stiff fight utter faceroll or a simple fight exceedingly difficult. Doubtless there are other minor effects which could go astray if the model isn't properly tested.

Of course they could test real models internally and dummy models on PTR, but how long before a real model made it in the PTR build by human error and all their effort is subsequently wasted.

It used to be that a patch would go live and people would experience brand new bosses with the learning curve involved. It could take weeks for tactics to develop and spread to guilds that weren't bleeding edge. Now with PTR testing everyone can go into battle armed with this foreknowledge. Knowing this Blizzard can up the difficulty of fights, thus producing better bosses. They're also able to do the latest thing of limited attempts. Going in with zero knowledge you could spend attempts just reaching phase 2, suddenly have new abilities with which to learn and deal, wasting more attempts. Your average (non-top-100) guild could even waste all its attempts before it fully understood all a boss could do, making it hard to accurately tailor their gameplan.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/19/09, 5:25 PM   #6798
MathWizard
Banned
 
Gnome Mage
 
Destromath
I think the hitbox is separate from the actual model, or at least it could be.

I mean there are some dragons like Ony that you can hit from 20 yards away, and there are others where you have to be right up underneath it with your guy's weapon models actually connecting with the boss' model to hurt it.

I agree that it's probably pretty irrelevant in any case. If you don't want things spoiled, don't read MMO-Champion, and if you do want things spoiled, you can probably figure out a way to spoil it for yourself unless Blizzard goes to truly epic trouble code-naming everything in their game files.

I edited the above post to add periods before the double newlines.

Last edited by MathWizard : 11/20/09 at 10:31 PM.

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Old 11/19/09, 5:40 PM   #6799
Bloo Driver
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Blackhand
If anyone wanted to double check the likelihood of Blizz simply yoinking out any models that might have had to do with the Arthas encounter script, they could check to see if the King Menethil model is still in or not.

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Old 11/19/09, 8:48 PM   #6800
Jagiya
Don Flamenco
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Blackrock
Re: "how do we know Lavaman = Bolvar", there's various images floating around which directly compare components of their bodies as 100% matches, such as the boots/greaves & belt. On top of the whole "Immolated Champion" and "Fate of the Young Paladin" and dozens of other dotted lines which all lead to the same point, I think we safely concluded that it's definitely not "just some generic mob/boss model leaked from Cataclysm."

And as for, "Why go to all that trouble designing a model for an NPC in a single instance", considering he is the Alpha to Arthas' Omega, and this particular dungeon will close the book on nearly 10 years of built-up story - it's pretty clear that Bolvar will be instrumental in the downfall (and according to the leaks - "resurrection?") of The Lich King. This isn't just some guy patrolling the stables of Karazhan; this is a very powerful character who has endured more than most heroes in the WarCraft Universe and survived through sheer nobility. He's gonna play a big role in Icecrown and I'm certain people will be reminiscing about "how awesome it was when Bolvar "Flame On" Fordragon took down Arthas" a few years from now.

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Old 11/20/09, 7:05 AM   #6801
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
Originally Posted by Jagiya View Post
And as for, "Why go to all that trouble designing a model for an NPC in a single instance", considering he is the Alpha to Arthas' Omega, and this particular dungeon will close the book on nearly 10 years of built-up story - it's pretty clear that Bolvar will be instrumental in the downfall (and according to the leaks - "resurrection?") of The Lich King. This isn't just some guy patrolling the stables of Karazhan; this is a very powerful character who has endured more than most heroes in the WarCraft Universe and survived through sheer nobility. He's gonna play a big role in Icecrown and I'm certain people will be reminiscing about "how awesome it was when Bolvar "Flame On" Fordragon took down Arthas" a few years from now.
Although, to be honest, all these superpowered paladins just keep piling up...

I've been wondering about what Bloo Driver pointed myself. And although I know it's pretty much inevitable, this being Arthas, I'm secretly hoping that the last fight doesn't at some point turn into a parade of victims' ghosts haunting Arthas and him going "Get off my head, I have killing chores to perform!" Also, I've given up understanding what exactly is Arthas' role inside the Lich King. Or the scope of his powers. Or what happened to Ner'zhul. I fancy meself some secrets and enigmas, but somehow I fear these questions might not even get addressed.

And, most of all, my Slaughter Sense is tingling...I can't see any of the major characters dying at Icecrown - not counting Bolvar's eventual sacrifice, or Saurfang Jr's "release". I may come across as bloodthirsty regarding characters, but I just think you can't have a proper final confrontation with the main "god-like" (really?) villain without him showing he's "NOT" kidding, however much he laughs at your feeble attempts to dent his armor or at your king/overlord/archmage/moutain king/banshee queen's corpse. Or Tirion's.

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Old 11/20/09, 3:14 PM   #6802
Rahlar
TheSporkWithin
 
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Troll Warlock
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Liebestod View Post
I was hardly implying that Bolvar wouldn't be in Icecrown. When was the last time we had a fancy non-boss model for a single instance, though?
Maiev Shadowsong. She even served a similar role, appearing in only one fight and serving to help us defeat a supposedly otherwise unkillable foe.

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Old 11/20/09, 4:41 PM   #6803
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Rahlar View Post
Maiev Shadowsong. She even served a similar role, appearing in only one fight and serving to help us defeat a supposedly otherwise unkillable foe.
Well actually, she already was in Shadowmoon since 2.0

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Old 11/20/09, 5:59 PM   #6804
andastra
Don Flamenco
 
Human Mage
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Rahlar View Post
Maiev Shadowsong. She even served a similar role, appearing in only one fight and serving to help us defeat a supposedly otherwise unkillable foe.

To be fair, Maiev was an established character from Warcraft 3 with a unique model. Blizzard had to keep that unique model in WoW.

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Old 11/20/09, 7:08 PM   #6805
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
What? Tons of characters in war3 with unique models translated into ordinary character models in WoW - namely, pretty much all the faction leaders. What does "Unique model" even mean in warcraft 3 - that the unit was a hero?

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Old 11/20/09, 11:06 PM   #6806
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
When you start talking about it like that you end up going in circles really.

For the most part any hero that showed up in Warcraft 3 you expect to look somewhat similar in World of Warcraft, this wasn't as possible in release of classic, Thrall using a normal Orc model, Jaina losing those wicked eyes, etc.

When Maiev was introduced in BC, along with Illidan, Kael, Vashj, her model was very very similar to what you saw in WC3. Hence, saying she had a unique model.

Many bosses in the game are rehashes of old bosses we've seen before. Kel'Thuzad for instance looks like every other Lich in the game. Every undead dog post Naxxramas looks like Gluth, etc. On occasion you get a unique models like Thaddius(at the time), or Grobbulus, or Lotheb. Most of the time you only get these new/unique models as bosses in new raids. If Bolvar is indeed the flaming man we saw before, he would be one of the very few heroes/side NPCs that's not an actual boss to get a unique model just for 1 instance.

WoW Evolution is an interesting thing, hopefully Thrall gets a new model before he steps out as the Warchief.

->->->

I still miss the eyes.

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 11/22/09, 3:13 AM   #6807
Liebestod
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Interestingly, only some Warcraft 3 lore characters had unique models, though. Namely, Jaina / Arthas / Malfurion / Thrall / Grom all had unique hero models, everyone else was just generic (though Illidan got a unique model in TFT and iirc he was the only Demon Hunter in the War3 campaign. Sylvanas and Rexxar were also unique in this regard, and possibly Vashj as well.) So Kel'Thuzad being a generic Lich isn't really due to WoW devs being lazy... he was a generic lich from the start. He did get a spiffy special thing behind his head for his model, though.

Blizzard has gotten a lot better with using unique models for raid bosses since Ulduar, though... I think we'll be able to expect a lot of that in the future. The Bolvar model looks moderately fancy, though... but then again, if he features prominently in the ending cinematic for WotLK which will undoubtedly be added at some point, maybe that'll make it worthwhile. It does pique curiosity as to what role he might end up playing in the future... the Scourge wouldn't really fit into the Deathwing / Azshara plots.

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Old 11/22/09, 9:36 PM   #6808
Cobs
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Shaman
 
Malorne
Originally Posted by Liebestod View Post
It does pique curiosity as to what role he might end up playing in the future... the Scourge wouldn't really fit into the Deathwing / Azshara plots.
I think if the story ends as we are currently thinking and Bolvar takes up the crown to keep the Undead in check then Blizzard has a good excuse to put some undead subzones in the game without haveing to create a new undead source. Either some faction is acting against orders/control of Bolvar trying to keep them all in line or Bolvar doesn't have enough fingers for the proverbial undead dyke and some leak through and go rampaging in Azeroth. Places likte the plaguelands would be a good area for this, they are far enough from Northrend that Bolvar can't keep them in check but they are also cut off from reinforcements and the lich kings powers which would explain them being lvl 35-40 instead of 50-60 or however they end up changing the level ranges.

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Old 11/22/09, 9:52 PM   #6809
Airraid
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
And things are always named oddly for inside the files. Marrowgar is called Bonegaurd, Lana'thel is named Bloodqueen, Putricide is labeled as wightscientist, Deathwhisper is called MinisterofDeath and etc.
I would suggest that’s because the work on the instance (models, terrain etc) is started long before the lore of the instance is complete. When they start, the modeling team have a basic outline of the story and concept art to work from - i.e. a brief from creative along the lines of "you guys need to create a Bone Guard, Blood Queen, Scientist and a Minister of Death - here's some concept art of what we think."

All of the minor details (names, emotes etc) would have all been finished much later in the development cycle when creative finish the story.

Hunter now retired to pugs, solo farming and Yogg 0. Long live the shaman!

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Old 11/23/09, 4:36 AM   #6810
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
What Airraid said, plus they might want to re-use the models (even if we defeat the Lich King, the Scourge is not destroyed yet)

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