World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 491

Kazanir · 01/31/10, 8:05 AM

I didn't quote jack, and I read GC's post after I said what I did.

Wasn't there discussion of a number of old dungeons going away in Cata with their achievements being turned into Feats of Strength? Whether that includes the raids or not, who knows.

Zaniel · 01/31/10, 9:01 AM

Yes, forgive me, I misrepresented the person I was speaking with. It was a question I asked of MizarAlcor, not Kazanir. Sorry.

The line still stands, and I'm not sure if GC meant it to be literal. I assume that we're just reading too much into his postings, as players often do.

BRM will still be in the Cataclysm world. It's just a matter of whether it will be so substantially changed that the depths will need reworking. Given Blizzard's past actions, and their hesitancy to unmake dungeon content they've already implemented, it would be odd for MC and BWL to go away for good.

So far the only dungeons I've read about getting even updated were SFK and Deadmines, although Gnomer was talked about. I can't recall if that was due to speculation from false notes or actual blue posts.

Nathanyel · 01/31/10, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

I don't believe saying that "Ragnaros may be back, but he's not in Molten Core," was meant to say he won't be in MC at all. I suspect it was more to indicate that he would be back in a new place (the Firelands) as well.

Well of course he's still in Molten Core, but as the Level 60 version. That was what I meant.

Mr. Crow · 01/31/10, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

So far the only dungeons I've read about getting even updated were SFK and Deadmines, although Gnomer was talked about. I can't recall if that was due to speculation from false notes or actual blue posts.

It was the false notes from just before BlizzCon that suggested Blackrock Mountain erupting and Gnomeregan getting retaken.

I could see them re-tooling Gnomer to work more like the "progressive incursion" we see in the ICC 5-mans, with NPC support rolling behind you retaking critical points as you down bosses. It would be a pretty light-hearted instance by comparison, especially if the Horde version instead capitalized on Goblin agents pirating Gnomeregan for every thing they can find (which recalls the Ethereal escort quest in Mana Tombs...).

As for the BRM instances... it's a very busy place. Ghostcrawler's statement could be translated to mean that MC is closing down, but so far it's the only statement that supports that idea, and only ambiguously. Every other statement made so far indicates that Naxxramas and Onyxia were special cases and they don't plan on doing that for any more older content. Plans change, of course, but the focus on new raid content at Cataclysm's ship time probably keeps their development team more engaged.

Shadowfang Keep and Deadmines are getting Heroic versions, and I'm pretty sure that's a "testing the waters" stage. If the process for retooling a 5-man for Heroic-grade isn't difficult and if player reaction is good, we could see every dungeon with a non-heroic version getting retooled over time.

The question I have about going Heroic with pre-BC dungeons is this: if BC heroics and raids provide Badges of Justice (for BC epics) and Wrath heroics/raids provide Emblems (for Wrath epics), will these pre-BC heroics be treated the same as Cataclysm heroics in terms of providing Emblems for Cataclysm epics? The Dungeon Finder and the high capability of players makes it so that you could conceivably run through 75-100% of the Wrath heroic set in a very short span of time, making those instances repetitive. If you add the number of pre-BC dungeons to the number of 5-mans planned for release in 4.0, you would greatly increase the number of instances that people could run via the Dungeon Finder, consistently introducing people to content that they might have passed over while leveling.

Oh man. Who's up for Heroic Blackrock Depths? ^_^

Leviathon · 01/31/10, 1:47 PM

It's been mentioned both in the WoW magazine and PC Gamer that Gnomeregan may be re-taken and that the trolls may get a city.

MizarAlcor · 01/31/10, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

The question I have about going Heroic with pre-BC dungeons is this: if BC heroics and raids provide Badges of Justice (for BC epics) and Wrath heroics/raids provide Emblems (for Wrath epics), will these pre-BC heroics be treated the same as Cataclysm heroics in terms of providing Emblems for Cataclysm epics? The Dungeon Finder and the high capability of players makes it so that you could conceivably run through 75-100% of the Wrath heroic set in a very short span of time, making those instances repetitive. If you add the number of pre-BC dungeons to the number of 5-mans planned for release in 4.0, you would greatly increase the number of instances that people could run via the Dungeon Finder, consistently introducing people to content that they might have passed over while leveling.

I have read a blue post somewhere, but I can't seem to remember the link pointing out to that particular post. The post basically said that Blizzard admitted the flaws and "clunkiness" of emblem-token system in Wrath and they would come up with a new system for Cata raid tier gears.

Also, who knows what they will do with the underlying meaning of the word "Heroic" (providing badges, only for max-levels (85), etc) dungeons, like what they did to the mid-Wrath raids (Heroic changed from referring to 25 mans, to essentially hard modes). The way I see it, Cata will be the expansion that will change many of the very core and underlying mechanics (too many examples to mention, gear system, gear scaling, leveling, etc), even more than the previous expansions. I see it as a way for them to essentially "reset" the game, allowing brand-new generation of players to learn the game.

Kaejin · 01/31/10, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

It's been mentioned both in the WoW magazine and PC Gamer that Gnomeregan may be re-taken and that the trolls may get a city.

Blizzard has been pretty coy about this, only going so far as to say they have "something" planned for trolls.

Jagiya · 01/31/10, 9:40 PM

My interpretation of Deadmines & SFK coming back as Heroic versions gave the same impression - they're testing the water for some kind of "scaling" Heroic Revamp, where every dungeon in the game has a Heroic version which scales according to your character/max level at the time. It would revitalise old content and allow it to remain engaging for years to come. Having said that though... alot of those old 5-mans were a mess. They'd need to do a lot of reworking before they'd be potentially enjoyable Heroics, parallel with the current Heroic model. (RFK, Gnomeregan, BRD... *shudder*)

Vaccine · 02/01/10, 2:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

I didn't quote jack, and I read GC's post after I said what I did.

Wasn't there discussion of a number of old dungeons going away in Cata with their achievements being turned into Feats of Strength? Whether that includes the raids or not, who knows.

I made that assumption and may have even posted in this thread about it after Blizzcon, I thought I had heard something about Blackrock Mountain errupting so at least the bottom half was nuked, but when trying to find another source for it I've been unable to. Due to that I've been farming MC for rep just in case.

The biggest reasoning for me is that in the past, things have been a time-line progression through the content. That is why you can have Kael'thas in two instances, because one occurs after the other. Same for the vamps in ICC or Drakkuru in GH/ZD. With Cata however as I understand it everything is resetting to day zero. My new level 1 goblin or orc is created post Lich King, Cataclysm and all. A level 1 character is definitely after Ragnaros, Neltharion and C'thun were defeated, whereas the moment it is more like they are still alive to the point in the game the player reaches around 60 after which they are defeated by whoever. Whilst it doesn't matter too much from a questing point of view (no one cares that technically Hogger was killed by someone 5 years ago) as it is inconsequential but for the big lore events like arch villain defeats, I think it will assume all that has gone before.

I imagine in Outlands/Icecrown this will be a bit more complex and some quests might still reference Illidan, Kael'thas or Arthas as being alive just due to the effort to change them, but for Azeroth mainland I think that holds true.

As for Trolls, wasn't there talk of a new bluff in Thunderbluff? Could be a Troll bluff if the Orcs are kicking them out.

E: Ah, eruption from fake notes. Thats where I heard it.

Bierzkrieg · 02/01/10, 6:04 AM

Obviously, any incursion by a Cata-created character into MC or Nefarian's lair is not meant to be, "lorewise". It just doesn't make sense for Blizzard to implement additional phasing for new characters just because of "I'm seeing double Ragnarosomgwtf!!!!!"

At this point, Blizzard's focus is certainly not on getting new players for WoW, so with some good-willed suspension of disbelief on our side, it should all make sense.

Tinwhisker · 02/01/10, 9:25 AM

OK, when they brought back Onyxia it was a "nostalgia raid" meaning that the fight with her had nothing to do with the game or lore at that point. She was defeated in the time-line when we were level 60 and our level 80 time-line fight was just for fun.

Is this same kind of reasoning going to follow for Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep? Or are they going to shoe-horn these into the story-line somehow? Say, as a way for max level toons to be introduced to Worgen (questlines in SFK) and to Goblins (VC kidnaps Thrall).

ildon · 02/01/10, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

I made that assumption and may have even posted in this thread about it after Blizzcon, I thought I had heard something about Blackrock Mountain errupting so at least the bottom half was nuked, but when trying to find another source for it I've been unable to. Due to that I've been farming MC for rep just in case.

The biggest reasoning for me is that in the past, things have been a time-line progression through the content. That is why you can have Kael'thas in two instances, because one occurs after the other. Same for the vamps in ICC or Drakkuru in GH/ZD. With Cata however as I understand it everything is resetting to day zero. My new level 1 goblin or orc is created post Lich King, Cataclysm and all. A level 1 character is definitely after Ragnaros, Neltharion and C'thun were defeated, whereas the moment it is more like they are still alive to the point in the game the player reaches around 60 after which they are defeated by whoever. Whilst it doesn't matter too much from a questing point of view (no one cares that technically Hogger was killed by someone 5 years ago) as it is inconsequential but for the big lore events like arch villain defeats, I think it will assume all that has gone before.

I imagine in Outlands/Icecrown this will be a bit more complex and some quests might still reference Illidan, Kael'thas or Arthas as being alive just due to the effort to change them, but for Azeroth mainland I think that holds true.

As for Trolls, wasn't there talk of a new bluff in Thunderbluff? Could be a Troll bluff if the Orcs are kicking them out.

E: Ah, eruption from fake notes. Thats where I heard it.

The counter to this line of reasoning is that when TBC was released, Draenei and Blood Elves were "inserted" into the timeline at a point before the events of Classic. A level 1 Draenei crash landed on Azeroth before Vancleef was defeated or Onyxia was exposed.

Remember the golden rule at Blizzard: "Fun (or possibly 'The Game') comes first." Before lore, before logic, before consistency. And then ask yourself: is it "fun" to remove MC or BWL simply to keep the lore/timeline "consistent"? Also keep in mind that when Onyxia and Naxx were removed they were replaced with max level equivalents that were extremely similar in gameplay (ignoring the difficulty tuning of Naxx being crushed). I don't believe any more old raids are being removed any time soon.

Also, Bierzkrieg, I would think that almost the entire point of the old world revamp would be to improve the new user experience (and by extension the 1-60 leveling experience). Just look at the new tutorial system. Blizzard would not have spent time on that if they were not concerned with getting new players. If you don't care about new users, you just add XP gain multipliers (*cough*), you don't redesign the leveling flow and quests for 2 continents worth of old content.

Bierzkrieg · 02/01/10, 10:30 AM

Well, I didn't mean they'd be ignoring the new players completely, it's just the focus of the coming expansion still seems to be on making a groundbreaking (sorry) [80-85] leveling and endgame experience, and giving existing players a reason to level new characters from lvl1. Of course they can't give up on attracting new subscribers, but really, after reaching 10 million and reaching the fifth anniversary of the game, customer satisfaction should naturally become a bigger priority. It's just that WoW cannot lose one of its trademarks, the [new] user friendliness.

I'd think Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep would be receiving proper changes in their heroic versions. Namely, how many times more will we have to kill Arugal? My guess is that Blizzard has perceived how much of a letdown it would be for the playerbase to simply fight a lvl 85 Mr.Smite - actually, that was bad choice, he should be the new Lich King.

Mr. Crow · 02/01/10, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by ildon

The counter to this line of reasoning is that when TBC was released, Draenei and Blood Elves were "inserted" into the timeline at a point before the events of Classic. A level 1 Draenei crash landed on Azeroth before Vancleef was defeated or Onyxia was exposed.

Remember the golden rule at Blizzard: "Fun (or possibly 'The Game') comes first." Before lore, before logic, before consistency. And then ask yourself: is it "fun" to remove MC or BWL simply to keep the lore/timeline "consistent"? Also keep in mind that when Onyxia and Naxx were removed they were replaced with max level equivalents that were extremely similar in gameplay (ignoring the difficulty tuning of Naxx being crushed). I don't believe any more old raids are being removed any time soon.

What will make things very funny is the part where Worgen and Goblins will be selectable races for Death Knights. A Goblin Death Knight is not impossible to imagine (at least as silly as a Gnome DK), but the playable Goblins from the Bilgewater Cartel are supposed to have a somewhat different disposition from the Steamwheedle Cartel goblins we've dealt with up til now.

But a Worgen DK? It wouldn't be one of the Gilnean worgen, because they were all still behind the Greymane Wall. It would have to be a Son of Arugal who escaped the Forsaken and made it to the Plaguelands only to be killed and raised by the Scourge. You could make an argument that the San'layn raised Arugal earlier in the timeline than we know, and by level 55 some of his worgen (new or old) would have been pressed into service as DKs. So ultimately, lorewise, it CAN make sense if you jump through a lot of hoops, but the only thing that sticks with me is the idea of an undead Worgen changing shape from dead human to dead werewolf. It's kinda ridiculous.

But it is EXACTLY in Blizzard's line of thinking to justify that if Worgen and Goblins were disallowed from being DKs, it would not be to the benefit of the game. Draenei (and, honestly, Gnomes) make very little sense as DKs, but it's more fun for the game in general that everyone is united in death.

Bierzkrieg · 02/01/10, 10:51 AM

Blizzard had an epiphany on this Worgen/Goblin DKs issue. Basically, they spared us a lorebomb the likes of which have never been seen and themselves a can of black spray to the face, and just went with the "We allowed it for the fun" justification. I vote for making this a taboo subject. Kidding.

To be honest, though, the whole "All races can be DKs" subject is bound to the "Rule of less whining". Everyone gets a candy in exchange for suspension of desbelief. An expansion's worth of it.