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02/04/10, 10:09 AM
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#7486
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Originally Posted by shed
Regarding the final cinematic and Bolvar, the only thing that bothers me and confuses me is his player model and face. What exactly is Blizzard trying to show us? Is he supposed to just be a burned up guy infused by some power from Alexstrasza? The actual quality of his model looks really poor and cheap, especially the face.
Did he actually die at the Wrath gate after being burned by the reds and then risen by Arthas? Or was he 'saved' but deformed by the reds and they let Arthas take him and was that their plan?
The text from Alexstrasza and the other red dragon at the gate makes sense about 'they must never know what happened to him' if they mean we must never know he's still alive and the new Lich King.
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Well, aesthetics are debatable, but the model's overall quality is probably well above our characters'. True, the face could have gotten a little more effort put into it (it shouldn't have a nose, perhaps). His power right now is unclear, most likely he's developed an incredible resistance to pain and injury, coupled with his previous skills. I'd say he's also lost his Light powers, but it's more of a hunch.
My theory on him dying or not at the Wrathgate is that he was "cured" of the infection precisely at the time of his death. The Reds' flame doesn't revive the dead and it can cure the infections, but not without damaging the host. It's unsure if Alextrasza knew the exact fate of Bolvar, but she seemed sure he'd play a major role. And I'd say yes, it's highly probable that the Reds "saved" him on purpose, even at the expense of scarring him for life. Dragons view fates in pretty much the same way mortals plan their lives a couple of months ahead.
Now that I think about it, Bolvar seems a bit of a pariah to the Lich King's necromantic powers. The whole "Red dragon's flames do x, y and z" is pretty hazy to me, but isn't he pertpetualy burning in plague-purifying, life-giving, flames - that still burn like hell? I wonder how this contradiction of powers will translate should we ever encounter him again. Even taking into account the fact that Ner'zhul's powers are much greater, Bolvar's seem like the perfect counter to them.
Edit - @Wu Li: Bloody Hell - and I don't mean that theory is completely flawed - that'd make Nozdormu the worst of the Aspects, seeing as Neltharion was pretty much mind-screwed. Up until now, the Time Aspect has actually been shown to cope pretty well with knowing when (and how) his death will take place, so it'd really be a major twist in his nature. But it's true that kind of knowledge does eat away at your mind, even if you're a dragon-demigod who can send your enemies to their time of death or birth. It's a possibility, of course, but Blizzard better be prepared to turn an aloof, magnificent bastard into a completely self-centered psycho.
Last edited by Bierzkrieg : 02/04/10 at 10:18 AM.
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02/04/10, 10:49 AM
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#7487
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
It's a possibility, of course, but Blizzard better be prepared to turn an aloof, magnificent bastard into a completely self-centered psycho.
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Malygos' face heel turn wasn't handled particularly well.
The "Infinites are trying to break the timeline" idea has a bit of support from a few of the boss' comments ( The time has come to shatter this clockwork universe forever! Let us no longer be slaves of the hourglass!). The "fear of death" thing is just one option; Noz could have other motivations, hopefully some less cliched.
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02/04/10, 11:15 AM
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#7488
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Could Old Bronzie have manifested his "dark side" (dislike of being perpetually bound to his duty of patrolling time, getting fed up of seeing tragedies happen just because "it has to be so"?) in the form of another flight? Although, that does go down the cliché'd "evil self".
Since Nozdormu has been shown to be the Infinite's leader, I wonder what his reasons for having an entire Flight of dragons disrupting time would be, other than insanity made manifest or "because it must be in order for the future to take place" (really, this last one gets old very soon).
Still, messing with time opens a lot of possibilities, like restoring certain areas, timeline changes, etc...
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02/04/10, 11:22 AM
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#7489
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Well, assuming that Nozzy knows what's going to happen, we can only assume he also knows that the other Bronze dragons (and us) are going to stop the Infinites where ever they appear. What would then be the point of his sending the Infinites to these times only to fail? Is the point then to force us to go to these certain times for some other reason?
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02/04/10, 11:38 AM
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#7490
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Glass Joe
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Here's an idea: What if Nozdormu only "reads" as the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight because the Infinite Dragonflight is comprised of corrupted Bronze Dragonflight members and their offspring, like we saw in Culling of Stratholm?
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02/04/10, 11:44 AM
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#7491
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Problem is, he also knows if we are the ones to be defeated by the Infinites, at some point.
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02/04/10, 11:54 AM
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#7492
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Nozdormu playing with the time stream can have multifarious outcomes. A semi-reboot mechanic to kick off a future WoW2 or WC4 being just one of them.
Clever things like: He's gone Infinite to change the time stream because the future is Bad and it's better to betray is purpose than allow it to occur. This could even be two tiered - if we constantly stymie these attempts, we become more powerful and in the know - possibly enough that, in the end, the failed attempts were enough to prop us up so that we can prevent the Bad future without altering the past.
I.e. these aren't true attempts to destroy time, they're tests explicitly for us so we'll be ready later in our natural timelines.
Or they can throw out the standard "He's gone crazy" reasons. OMG, the Titans who created me are bad people, I can't cope, let's destroy it all. Old God went boo and I went cuckoo. Sargeras style, entropy will win in the end, might as well make it all not exist in the first place.
I'm expecting a clever answer with a couple of "Oops, that old content doesn't make sense now that they came up with a solution." It'll give us stuff to endlessly nit pick.
I always have to wonder, however - this is a Dragonflight. Created by the Titans. Individual members can travel in time and Nozdormu can do quite a bit of manipulation. Shouldn't the Titans been several magnitudes of power more puissant in time manipulation? Why re-originate when you could rewind and avoid the problem. Sadly, these are problems that will occur when you have beings with God-like powers in a game setting, even before you toss in time travel. God-like beings in any setting are either hands off (works fine), hands on and too powerful (so why don't they do X? Deus ex Machina should occur when it often doesn't), or hands on and too weak (how could they have done Y?).
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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02/04/10, 12:01 PM
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#7493
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Piston Honda
Draenei Shaman
Shattered Hand
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Originally Posted by Exemplar
Shouldn't the Titans been several magnitudes of power more puissant in time manipulation? Why re-originate when you could rewind and avoid the problem. Sadly, these are problems that will occur when you have beings with God-like powers in a game setting, even before.
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Who is to say that isn't exactly what reorginization consists of? The titan's "weapon" is some sort of save state that they could resume to if the planet went to shit.
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02/04/10, 12:07 PM
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#7494
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Exemplar
I always have to wonder, however - this is a Dragonflight. Created by the Titans. Individual members can travel in time and Nozdormu can do quite a bit of manipulation. Shouldn't the Titans been several magnitudes of power more puissant in time manipulation? Why re-originate when you could rewind and avoid the problem. Sadly, these are problems that will occur when you have beings with God-like powers in a game setting, even before you toss in time travel. God-like beings in any setting are either hands off (works fine), hands on and too powerful (so why don't they do X? Deus ex Machina should occur when it often doesn't), or hands on and too weak (how could they have done Y?).
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Well, in WoW you have several layers of "gods". Some of which are just really powerful beings, some more like demi-gods, some true god-like figures and several that seem to wander between those. Blizzard has also done a poor job of setting up some sort of inter-relationship between a lot of them.
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02/04/10, 12:31 PM
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#7495
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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In a universe where every dead guy ressurrects, scaly Jumbo Jets watch over domains like Life and the Earth (now Apeshit Insanity) and Gods are brought down, they still treat time as the most precious little thing, and always follow the "This [insert tragedy] is fate, it was destined".
So, supposedly, Algalon's "I'll just press this Reset button here..." gimmick was supposed to be beaten? Something that Nozdormu knew (and most likely his patron Titan) but which the other Titans couldn't have predicted. Unless they sent Algalon to just take a beating for the lulz. Problem with fantasy always seeing events as fateful is that, eventually, the most prescient and omniscient beings will end up entangled in such a motivations rollercoaster of doom that it will inevitably end in wall banging of ultimate degree. Which will be explained by said omni-beings' "mysterious ways". See Alexstrasza and the Wrathgate. It's not the worst case, to be honest, as it's normal for someone high in the power hierarchy to make use of others.
But Algalon's case pretty much dismisses it...we altered fate, there and then, simply because we were dealing with something which would normally wipe the floor with any fighting force - oh, and he was acting in secrecy.
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02/04/10, 2:00 PM
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#7496
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
But Algalon's case pretty much dismisses it...we altered fate, there and then, simply because we were dealing with something which would normally wipe the floor with any fighting force - oh, and he was acting in secrecy.
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This alone could easily be a "If the Infinite Dragonflight hadn't 'tested' us and caused us to reach our potential, we wouldn't have been able to succeed" scenario. That's going to be a very easy justification to trot out, should they decide to do so.
Time Travel easily lets you ass-pull justifications. X happened because Y, or someone went back and did X so Y could happen. Or to restate, you can have cause and effect, or have effect spawn cause.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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02/04/10, 3:58 PM
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#7497
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
Problem is, he also knows if we are the ones to be defeated by the Infinites, at some point.
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Maybe. It depends on how Blizzard handle time travel (and how consistent they are about it). It's possible they've not worked out an end-game for the Infinites, and it's possible that even if they have, it hasn't been thoroughly worked out.
For more speculation: Bolvar would make a good hero for Warcraft 4, and this does present the opportunity for another race of friendly undead, just as the Blood Elves mirror the Night Elves. Potentially a playable race.
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02/04/10, 8:14 PM
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#7498
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
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Originally Posted by awa64
Here's an idea: What if Nozdormu only "reads" as the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight because the Infinite Dragonflight is comprised of corrupted Bronze Dragonflight members and their offspring, like we saw in Culling of Stratholm?
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Was about to mention the same, Nozdormu was determined their leader (by which mechanism/method, by the way? "The magic of the hourglass" sounds really vague as we're talking about beings Chromie shouldn't know much about) because they were former Bronze dragons, could be they're trying to avoid Nozdormu's death but crossed the wrong lines along the way and dabbled with shadow magic, turning them into the Infinites, could be they're just madlizards per se trying to destroy the fabric of the universe without much reason. Speaking of which:
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
In a universe where every dead guy ressurrects, scaly Jumbo Jets watch over domains like Life and the Earth (now Apeshit Insanity) and Gods are brought down, they still treat time as the most precious little thing, and always follow the "This [insert tragedy] is fate, it was destined".
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Because "Time", at least in a SF setting, is usually the most fragile of the laws of nature. While deformed or altered "Space" heals rather easily, Time is too intertwined into, well, everything, the wrong change could start a chain reaction "shattering through the eons" and destroy at least a large part of the space-time continuum.
Speaking of which, I get the feeling we're overestimating Nozdormu's/the Bronzes' powers. The Titans surely wouldn't put this much power into a lesser being's hands, the remaining presence of the Old Gods was too much of a threat still.
Bronze dragons may, simplifiedly speaking, be able to influence past events that took place on Azeroth, per the Bronze agenda only to correct deviations from the actual timeline, but that's about it. Even Nozdormu wouldn't have the ability to create loops or permanently accelerated pockets in which e.g. strong military forces could be trained and, over the eons, improved* to a status at which they could pose a threat to the Titans, should the lesser beings decide to attack them, either due to demonic/necrophotic corruption or free will.
* Well, in the Warcraft universe, the border between magic and technology is near non-existant, I would even say mostly a matter of point of view.
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Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.
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02/04/10, 10:08 PM
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#7499
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Piston Honda
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Has anyone been able to get a screenshot of the new statue in Dalaran for those that have beaten Arthas? Should have an inscription plaque or two on it as well.
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02/05/10, 6:23 AM
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#7500
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master
A somewhat cliched option is that he's trying to prevent his death by breaking the timeline. It allows for a lot of room for Infinite activity, since their general goal can be just to cause as many paradoxes as possible.
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I think their goals are to ensure the Burning Leigon succeeds on Azeroth. Whether this is for a specific reason (like to combat a greater threat) or just due to insanity old gods etc... I don't know.
- Durnholde: Killing Thrall prevents the Horde from forming and thus the Burning Leigon are not stopped at Hyjal if it even gets that far.
- Stratholme: Killing Arthas prevents the Ner'zhul joining with him and keeps him locked away in his ice block on the Frozen Throne.
- Black Morass: This is a tougher one to argue since the Orcs coming to Azeroth was a legion plan implemented by Sargeras or a vision of Sargeras inhabiting Medivh or not. The retcons get confusing but some legion force opened the portal anyway. How does stopping this help the Burning Legion? You could argue it was the invasion of the orcs that turned the human nations from petty bickering and a weak fighting force into a unified army so perhaps another one in the less resistance category. If Kel'thuzad was still in the making and destined to open the Demon Gate then the orcs not coming would be a double win, achieving the same goal as Durnholde as well as keeping the humans fractured.
As for his own death, one idea I quite like is that he is corrupted by Azeroth Corruption Inc and the death he saw all those years ago was a version of himself killing his corrupted self. Would be quite cool to fight alongside Norzdormu to kill future Norzdormu. A very heavy burden to bear as well, not only knowing he will have to end his own life but knowing that at some point after he kills him, he will himself become corrupted. The benefit of this is they never have to explain how or where he gets corrupted, as it could be a slow process and the version leading the Infinite fligth could be hundreds or more years in the future.
The Bronze dragonflight interests me a lot. I really liked the scene with the Blood Elf orphan where the guards tried to kill her for future crimes.
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