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02/05/10, 7:08 AM
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#7501
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Originally Posted by Nathanyel
Because "Time", at least in a SF setting, is usually the most fragile of the laws of nature. While deformed or altered "Space" heals rather easily, Time is too intertwined into, well, everything, the wrong change could start a chain reaction "shattering through the eons" and destroy at least a large part of the space-time continuum.
Speaking of which, I get the feeling we're overestimating Nozdormu's/the Bronzes' powers. The Titans surely wouldn't put this much power into a lesser being's hands, the remaining presence of the Old Gods was too much of a threat still.
Bronze dragons may, simplifiedly speaking, be able to influence past events that took place on Azeroth, per the Bronze agenda only to correct deviations from the actual timeline, but that's about it. Even Nozdormu wouldn't have the ability to create loops or permanently accelerated pockets in which e.g. strong military forces could be trained and, over the eons, improved* to a status at which they could pose a threat to the Titans, should the lesser beings decide to attack them, either due to demonic/necrophotic corruption or free will.
* Well, in the Warcraft universe, the border between magic and technology is near non-existant, I would even say mostly a matter of point of view.
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Consequences to interfering with the flow of time need not be tragic. They might simply be "different". Although brutal changes seem more appealing to an epic story, a well told change that basically results in a different context isn't necessarily worse. And it's more "realistic".
Regarding Nozdormu's powers, no, I don't think we've underestimated him until now. According to the wiki, he can repeat any event that didn't go according to his plan (although the Infinites' own time-related powers may prevent that when Nozdormu fights them). He has a measure of combat prescience, propbably by looking into the future, both short and long-term. His shapeshifting nature seems heightened too, though that may be due to the description's tone. The possibilities you referred, Nathanyel, are unknow, but he could achieve said fighting force by interfering with an existing timeline and acting in secrecy, instead of purposefuly creating a time-pocket, which would probably draw more attention. Seeing as he looks like the most duty-bound of the Aspects, his patron Titan likely trusts him fully, so that's another +15 Stealth.
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02/05/10, 7:12 AM
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#7502
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Piston Honda
Human Warrior
Hellscream (EU)
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It's the same for the Draenei orphan, too. Too bad the Bronzes stupid themselves out of a chance to prevent the two orphans from doing something in the future that's apparently so overwhelmingly evil that it makes members of the Bronze Flight want to kill them on sight as children -- and since the Bronze mandate involves not getting involved unless necessary, chances are that whatever they do in the future, they do it to the Bronze Flight.
Something to do with the Infinites, perhaps?
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02/05/10, 8:29 AM
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#7503
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Kazzak (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cranberry
While I don't have the faith in Blizzard's story-writing at this point to believe it's important, I do think it's interesting that ghost-Terenas uses the same phrase Yogg-Saron does regarding the LK:
Terenas: "No king rules forever, my son"
Yogg: "He will learn! No king rules forever - only death is eternal!"
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It's also interesting that you don't find that interesting anymore when you discover this:
Arthas: I see only darkness ... for me. (dies)
Lord Marrowgar: I see... only darkness... (dies)
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02/05/10, 9:35 AM
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#7504
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Burning Legion
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Regarding Nozdormu and the various Time related "If this doesn't happen, the future's screwed, and he must have seen us winning" stuff,... Who's to say it isn't like [TV Show A]'s interpretation, which is to say that he sees many timelines, but the more prominent 'possible' ones are the ones more likely to happen, i.e. he saw the possibility of us failing, but the likelihood of us succeeding as being more prominent, in more of the possible timelines/outcomes? Technically, there are an infinite number of 'possibilities', but definitely some are more likely than others. As a Time-related being, i'm sure he is aware of this, but is playing the field a bit, like a gambler betting on a 'sure thing'. It's still technically a bet, but when was the last time the Lions had a winning record?
Otherwise, I think the resolution to Wrath of the Lich King was not only expected, but happened the way it had to happen. Logically, they could not simply erase all Undead. If the rampant berserked versions would tear apart the world, that is bad. If we would mop up after Arthas died, that is also bad. It creates gameplay problems, but more importantly, gives a retrospective 'was it really that big a threat to begin with then?' sort of scenario.
I personally rather like the end to the story, if it ends up that way, and not another 'Just kidding Sunwell' patch. Bolvar has a sufficiently tragic finish to an illustrious career, and one that has plenty of absolutely badass Anti-Hero mixed in. Who's to say what will emerge when the throne thaws? We know it will. But it seems quite silly to be unhappy with the majority of the story of Wrath of the Lich King so far, and expect the ending to blow you out of the water. It's the same writers ... what were you really expecting?
Smart money says that Tirion ends up taking flak, maybe even exiling himself for his 'lack of courage' or something, and giving the helm to Bolvar, instead of taking it himself. Unless the sound files are very different than reasonably expected, Tirion was very selfish-seeming. Another perhaps random thought, if everyone else can be resurrected, is there something i've missed which indicates that Arthas couldn't be? Even an Undead / whatever version? If so, this would provide an avenue for Mal'Ganis to have his retribution or whatever, and potentially could be pretty awesome, or horrific.
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/sanfordandson 'buh buh bway nuh ... buh buh bway nuh bwuh nay bwuh'
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02/05/10, 10:37 AM
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#7505
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Hunter
Draenor (EU)
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We seem to be witnessing a corruption/destruction of almost all of the Dragon Aspects. Ysera has her hands full in Emerald Dream. Malygos went evil on us for some reason. The Bronze Dragonflight has the Infinites to deal with. And now we will be facing the Black Dragonflight in Cataclysm. All these assaults and corruptions happening in a relatively short amount of time (a few years, really) lead me to believe they might be related to each other, somehow. The Legion? Old Gods? Titans deciding their pets don't do their job well enough and seeking to destroy them? Don't know, but I don't think they are just random.
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02/05/10, 10:50 AM
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#7506
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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No more games of whack-a-dreadlord, please...Kidding, it's just a personal opinion.
I don't think anybody in their right mind - barring Jaina, who's likely to have a meltdown anytime soon - would think it a good idea to revive Arthas. He was a mass murderer before he suffered any direct influence from the whispers of the Lich King. Note that Terenas is the one who seems most resentful of the former prince, the rest of the characters are just steaming-pissed to no end, but to see how much the old king truly despises his son is - in my view - the best storytelling part of these final episodes of WotLK. So, no, reviving an amoral, obsessive guy who simply doesn't use a god-helm anymore is not an option. Arthas' body is even left at the top of the spire. Perhaps Ner'zhul will animate him for amusement purposes.
Tirion's fate seems hazey...in a sense, he's pretty much like Maiev, his existence tied to a purpose and an enemy, the Scourge. Still, he'll be nowhere near useless when the Earth-Gecko comes rumbling through the crust along with some chaos cultis-oops, Twilight...cultists. His new gang's name even seems appropriate, but I'd say that they stay in Northrend to "oversee" Bolvar. Tirion likely feels some guilt, but really, for someone lost his peers' respect and blames himself, to some extent, for the death of his son - and although this kind of things tends to pile up - I wouldn't say this last act was a breaking point. And really, it's only logical. To me, Tirion definitely secured the award for best human character alive in Warcraft. I honestly found him to be a bit of a cliche'd guy before, not showing his scars, but this time, he acted in a perfectly logical way, accepting hard evidence instead of going "Self-Sacrifice ftw". Well done, old chap.
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02/05/10, 11:01 AM
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#7507
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Burning Legion
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I can definitely agree with you on that Bierzkrieg, I like how the character of Tirion has evolved, and he could be someone very enigmatic to come.
When it comes to the question of whether Arthas could be resurrected, I definitely didn't mean for 'good' reasons, like Jaina 'hoping against hope' or anything. I specifically referenced Mal'Ganis potentially resurrecting him to toy with him, torture, etc, but any number of people could theoretically do so. It would even be kind of ... unique, to see Arthas resurrected as an Undead under Bolvar's control...
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/sanfordandson 'buh buh bway nuh ... buh buh bway nuh bwuh nay bwuh'
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02/05/10, 11:07 AM
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#7508
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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I agree, Tirion comes out as the most developed and believable character in this chapter (as far as I know). I've not seen what he does after Arthas is dead and this whole thing resolved but as long as Blizzard doesn't screw his epilogue up, I think it's well done.
As for Arthas, he needs to stay dead, forever. Storylines have to end and despite some issues, his has a clear end here that could be made infinitely worse if "Icecrown was merely a setback." Even if brought back as some puppet under someone elses control it cheapens his whole existence.
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02/05/10, 11:27 AM
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#7509
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
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Originally Posted by Haylie
All these assaults and corruptions happening in a relatively short amount of time (a few years, really)
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Well, not really, actually. Deathwing was corrupted a certain time before the War of the Ancients ~10k years ago, Malygos fell into depression and eventual madness because of the majority of his flight slain when Neltharion betrayed them during these events, the Emerald Nightmare showed up some unknown amount of years ago, and the Infinites, on the other hand, sound like a "future" danger - though of course, when time travel is involved, the exact date becomes as defining as at which mile exactly your car broke down on the highway.
It all may escalate now, but that's rather a plot mechanic - books or se-/prequels to WC1-3 may take place at any period in time, while WoW cannot escape the couple of years it takes place in, due to the MMO mechanics. CoT is a workaround for that, though only Durnholde was really "new" content so far.
So yes, after Cataclysm, there probably is another threat from the Legion immediately (or, which would be more fun, Azerothians attacking demon-controlled words) but not because it had been plotting all these years to launch a second attack a few years after the Third War, but rather because Blizzard needs to present the players new threats to battle, and it would be weird to state "well, between expansion X and X+1, there were some years of holiday for your heroes".
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Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.
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02/05/10, 11:33 AM
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#7510
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Although, I can grow to respect a sore loser like Mal'Ganis if he manages to do something like possessing Arthas' body or reanimating him (although necromancy's not a known nathrezim power, if memory serves).
What I dislike about dreadlords is their "locust" nature, in that they form something of a Council of Whiny Villains. They're highly powerful on their own, but then appear indistinguishable and seem to have a "brother where are thou" complex, constantly scheming with each other. So they become really annoying. I'll admit again, this is a purely personal view from someone who's a fan of the likes of Death"Plow through'em"Wing. To those who appreciate Tzeenchian-like plots, I'm sure Dreadlords are interesting. In fact, Blizzard probably intended them to be precisely this bunch of ever-returning schemers. In that sense, it's a job well done.
Not sure what to expect of Tirion's future (end). Pulling a death on him come Cataclysm for shock purposes can be well played, but we really lack down-to-earth characters like him. Putting him on the shelf isn't much better, although it may prevent him from getting tiresome (he does scream a lot) and derailed. And then there's always the "Going Sith" route, which, if brought upon Tirion, is a truly horrible prospect. And I don't mean for the world of Azeroth.
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02/05/10, 11:44 AM
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#7511
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
Not sure what to expect of Tirion's future (end). Pulling a death on him come Cataclysm for shock purposes can be well played, but we really lack down-to-earth characters like him. Putting him on the shelf isn't much better, although it may prevent him from getting tiresome (he does scream a lot) and derailed. And then there's always the "Going Sith" route, which, if brought upon Tirion, is a truly horrible prospect. And I don't mean for the world of Azeroth.
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Actually, in "losing" Bolvar, we've lost one of the most down to earth characters this game has ever known. Think about it, even before all this, everyone loved Bolvar. He was rational, down to earth, responsible and everything else we expect to see in a role model and he was also like us. He was a normal human being.
Now that he's all... well, whatever he is, we need someone else to take that place. Somebody we can go to see whenever we like, maybe interact with a bit and maybe send us on some quests but deep down is not so different from us. No special powers, not some magical being in human form, just a good person who remains who he is through everything that happens (good and bad). To that end, I'd like to see Tirion (and the Ashen Verdict) take up some sort of residency in IceCrown, maybe under the guise of wiping out what scourge remain but more importantly to keep an eye on Bolvar and the Citadel.
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02/05/10, 11:45 AM
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#7512
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Earthen Ring
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Originally Posted by Exemplar
Clever things like: He's gone Infinite to change the time stream because the future is Bad and it's better to betray is purpose than allow it to occur. This could even be two tiered - if we constantly stymie these attempts, we become more powerful and in the know - possibly enough that, in the end, the failed attempts were enough to prop us up so that we can prevent the Bad future without altering the past.
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Another possibility depends on WoW's time travel metaphysics. When someone changes the past, okay, for them the future changes, but is the old future gone? Or are there now two universes, one with and one without the change? If it's the latter, they could be screwing with the timeline simply to create as many fracture points as possible, as a way to do a regularly-scheduled "hot backup" of the universe. "Okay, 30% of the timelines have Azeroth lifeless, and 50% are at risk, but 20% are still going strong."
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02/05/10, 12:10 PM
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#7513
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
Tirion's fate seems hazey...in a sense, he's pretty much like Maiev, his existence tied to a purpose and an enemy, the Scourge.
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Common misconception. Tirion's against the Legion, the Scourge issues is just a by-blow. Recall he was kicked out/quit the Order because Balnazzar took command and twisted it into the Scarlet Crusade. Recall all the vanilla quests and good old Stratholme (the present day burning one, not the CoT version). His son's death and all his personal tragedy stems from the hands of Dreadlords, not the Scourge, per se. Scourge created by Legion, Scourge led by bad ex-Paladin, made them a major issue, especially with no Legion incursions (to his knowledge) needing stopping.
So with the Scourge a non-issue, Tirion should still be gunning for the Legion as the next target. I'd love to see him as an organizing force for pushing into the Legion held worlds. And, Nathanyel, I think you (and others) mentioned that far before even your November post which you linked.
Regarding resurrecting Arthas, my understanding was in WC3 he was still alive and functioning under command of The Lich King, but by the time events of WotLK happen, Arthas is himself undead (and the Lich King). He is no longer human (cutting out his own heart?), but an animated undead, like the Scourge he commands. The rules regarding when/if an undead can be reanimated are undefined and rather loose (sometimes it seems easy to re-animate same target many times, other times the game treats it like it's an impossibility).
Whether or not Mal'ganis could re-animate Arthas (probable, Dreadlords are pretty powerful and someone in the Legion started the Scourge), the immediate reaction should be either A) Arthas falls under Scourge and Bolvar's command or B) he's free willed like the Forsaken, and unlikely to be willing to assist Mal'ganis.
I rather like complex and manipulative villains. Unfortunately the Dreadlords tend more towards Snidely Whiplash "Darn, foiled again, I'll return next week" types. Their grand plans seem to be planned all of about 30 seconds in advance. Hard to root for a villain who makes Homer Simpson sound like an experienced project manager.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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02/05/10, 12:33 PM
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#7514
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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You're right about Tirion and who his nemesis is. Further correcting that statement of mine, I'll add that he has much bigger personal issues than the sum of his enemies - even if said enemies caused those issues. I got carried away up there, this crusade of his against the Scourge is just a part of his life and feats. It's probably his biggest one, though, so it just flashed brighter to my eyes.
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02/05/10, 2:28 PM
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#7515
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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It helps set Tirion that much ahead of Arthas. He's got a goal, but he'll take important detours and put other concerns ahead of personal vendetta. Arthas mindlessly chased Mal'ganis and betrayed his own ethics. Tirion has stayed true regardless of adversity or personal loss.
You could draw a mini-morality play from it. Tirion sacrificed much and "did the right thing" and has attained (a) victory. Arthas was self-centered and "did the wrong thing" and has been defeated.
For all Wrath is supposed to be grey morality, you've got a pretty clean cut victory for the side of righteousness. Whereas BC had you defeating a sad paranoid delusional who had retreated into near hermitage: Illidan. Although his Lieutenants were still doing much nastiness in the world. Illidan could be viewed (with some effort) as a tragic figure, while Arthas is hard to see as anything other than a personification of evil.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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