World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 502

Leviathon · 02/05/10, 3:00 PM

At least due to Tirions age he likely was a warrior during the first and second wars so at least he will know who Deathwing is also and recall the things he did before the Invasion of Draenor. So if Blizzard wants it would be pretty easy to have him turn around and want to go after Deathwing just as bad but not to such a degree. For Cataclysm though I think we will see the main protagonist be a non Horde affiliated Thrall and Council of Tirisfal (whether hes guardian or not) along with other big name druids and shamans. And of course we will have the continuation in some way of the Garrosh and Varian wanting to kill each other show!

Nathanyel · 02/05/10, 8:12 PM

I would even go so far as to speculate the various neutral* factions will cooperate a lot in Cataclysm, like Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade in WotLK, or the representants of the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring at Light's Hope Chapel, just with a lot more cooperative involvement. Mixed quest hubs or at least more "guests", and e.g. another "group" raid faction like the Ashen Verdict.
I wonder if the Might of Kalimdor could make a return, seeing how the big bads behind the Qiraj and Deathwing are the same, but since they weren't mentioned in the Ulduar content, I doubt that, sadly. I would be nice to have more neutral* or, may I say, more focussed factions within H/A. Its engagement in Silithus was sanctioned/endorsed by the then-leaders of both sides though, and it consisted mostly of military personnel, so to repeat, I doubt that.

* "neutral" here means neutral to the H/A conflict, not to other threats.

Kaejin · 02/05/10, 8:47 PM

The Might of Kalimdor returning would be cool, but I think at this point the relationship between the Alliance and Horde is so fractured that it would be impossible, especially with the leaders in Cataclysm (Varian and Garrosh).

Charmin · 02/06/10, 4:23 AM

I think of it this way. Blizzard put a lot of time and effort into the Blood Elf storyline in TBC. Albeit it wasn't award winning storytelling, but for an MMO it was pretty good. What did they do with all that they built in TBC with the Blood Elves whose proper bookend should have been Arthas-focused? They didn't really do much of anything. I would have loved for SOME involvement. King Anastarian showing up as the Frostmourne Ambassador to Sylvannas instead of Uther would have been great. Maybe his spellblade drops from Arthas... Maybe Sylvannas sister gets involved, anything really. I think they really missed out on some cool possibilities. The Humans and Elves deserve such revenge. Really sad, that Orcs took precedent over that, but whatever.

That being said, I am not betting on Tirion making a return with the Argent Crusade or Ashen Verdict in Cata. I think Blizzard will be far too focused on the coming storyline to include a "what are they doing now" segement with the main heroes of WotLK. I could be wrong, and I hope I am; the Tirion quest chain from EPL is still one of my favorites in all of WoW, but I am not betting on it, at least not in any kind of important central role. I think Cata is really going to be classic Orc vs Human kind of stuff.

But truth be told this is all okay with me. I'd rather see new heroes emerge and the possibility for some real storytelling start to happen than dredge up old favorites time and time again. Even though Garrosh is an ass, and we will probably never see actual character development in him I am eagerly anticipating him just stirring up a shit-storm within the Horde and with the Alliance.

As for WotLK's heroes... It's like a comedian. You'd much rather see them walk off stage on a high note. Yeah, it makes you want to see more of their act, but that's the point.

Nathanyel · 02/06/10, 5:08 AM

Originally Posted by Charmin

Maybe Sylvannas sister gets involved, anything really.

Speaking of which, did Sylvanas visit Dalaran before heading towards Icecrown? The presence of Dark Ranger Vorel doesn't really imply that, especially as that NPC was on Orgrim's Hammer during the PTR phase. Does Sylvanas still care about Vereesa? Does Vereesa want to see the undead body of her sister? While there are several Human and Forsaken NPCs with the same surname, sometimes even with an confirmation that they're related through quests/dialogues, the subject of how people cope with a close relative becoming an Undead/Forsaken hasn't really been touched yet in official sources (I don't doubt there are countless questionable fan stories)
A pair of sisters as prominent as these two would've been the perfect opportunity. Well, maybe they can pick up that topic again when the third sister re-appears.

Haylie · 02/06/10, 10:32 AM

There's also the issue of Vereesa being a part of the Alliance while Sylvanas is part of the Horde. Personally, I think Sylvanas has been focusing on the assault on the Lich King to the exclusion of everything else. Also, I don't seem to recall Sylvanas ever mentioning her. She did talk about Alleria, but not much about Vereesa.

Spink · 02/06/10, 9:52 PM

Based on star wars type lore continuity battles that independant writers face (ie. in the case of blizzard it's every writer that isn't Metzen) I'm guessing that there are several characters who are off limits to ingame lore development because they are tied to unnamed publishing project #008 particularly the ones that were introduced in comics/books before they appeared in the game like Vereesa, Rhonin, Broll, etc. I think faction leaders like Varian are a special case but that Vereesa and Rhonin being ingame are more of a fan service than integral parts of lore that will progress ingame unless something special happens behind the scenes.

note: Rhonin did get to be the mouthpiece for the Algalon kill quest, and part of the cinematic related to 3.2, but it didn't really progress his own story a lot.

Liebestod · 02/07/10, 8:58 PM

I could see why Blizzard wouldn't want to mess around with characters that are subject to ongoing involvement in the comics/books/etc., but I think Blizzard is wise to avoid character sprawl by having a set of ingame characters being developed and a separate set of extended universe characters being developed. Plus, there are plenty of instances of character conceived outside of the games being developed within them - Anveena and Kalecgos in the Sunwell, Dar'Khan in Ghostlands, and.... well, I'm sure there are plenty of others, and there should be more.

Airraid · 02/08/10, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by Charmin

I think of it this way. Blizzard put a lot of time and effort into the Blood Elf storyline in TBC. Albeit it wasn't award winning storytelling, but for an MMO it was pretty good. What did they do with all that they built in TBC with the Blood Elves whose proper bookend should have been Arthas-focused? They didn't really do much of anything. I would have loved for SOME involvement. King Anastarian showing up as the Frostmourne Ambassador to Sylvannas instead of Uther would have been great. Maybe his spellblade drops from Arthas... Maybe Sylvannas sister gets involved, anything really. I think they really missed out on some cool possibilities. The Humans and Elves deserve such revenge. Really sad, that Orcs took precedent over that, but whatever.

I have a strong feeling that we haven't seen *all* of the story yet, though. There were audio files in 3.3.2 that still haven't appeared in game yet, so far as I know:

1) A conversation between Alexandros and Darion Mograine

2) Uther thanking you for presenting him with something that Arthas kept

3) Jaina crying over being handed something that Arthas kept

4) Muradin reminiscing about the old days after seeing something Arthas kept

5) Sylvanas being relieved that the deed is finally done after being handed something Arthas kept.

I'm not sure where 1 fits in (could be the final part of the Shadowmourne quest line - not sure), but I'm fairly confident that 2, 3, 4 and 5 are the sound files from handing-in a quest item that drops from Arthas hard mode. So there's a little follow up left to go yet; even though the audio files don't say too much, perhaps the quest text will.

Also - another thought - all the Ulduar hard modes had more lore in them than the normal modes, especially when the boss was killed. This could be a precedent for Lich King hard mode, too?

Leviathon · 02/08/10, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Airraid

I have a strong feeling that we haven't seen *all* of the story yet, though. There were audio files in 3.3.2 that still haven't appeared in game yet, so far as I know:

1) A conversation between Alexandros and Darion Mograine

2) Uther thanking you for presenting him with something that Arthas kept

3) Jaina crying over being handed something that Arthas kept

4) Muradin reminiscing about the old days after seeing something Arthas kept

5) Sylvanas being relieved that the deed is finally done after being handed something Arthas kept.

I'm not sure where 1 fits in (could be the final part of the Shadowmourne quest line - not sure), but I'm fairly confident that 2, 3, 4 and 5 are the sound files from handing-in a quest item that drops from Arthas hard mode. So there's a little follow up left to go yet; even though the audio files don't say too much, perhaps the quest text will.

Also - another thought - all the Ulduar hard modes had more lore in them than the normal modes, especially when the boss was killed. This could be a precedent for Lich King hard mode, too?

Some of the dialogue could occur after the cinematic. You just wouldn't see something like that in the videos since it's considered 'unimportant' compared to the rest. Other bits likely are mode dialogue.

Bierzkrieg · 02/08/10, 6:40 AM

I'm guessing those speeches from Uther, Muradin and Jaina may be the end of a quest that starts with some "soul shard" of sorts - dropped by Arthas, of course. Jaina says - while crying the inevitable river - Arthas kept something. Maybe she's referring to some memento, but it might as well be a part of himself he kept "pure".

Nathanyel has raised a very valid point regarding Sylvannas. Her reunion with her sister is overdue, really, and, seeing as they likely know of each other's current status, it's getting awkward.

Edit: [It's getting awkward] when I think about it, I won't pretend to have thought of this before. Not to my memory at least, so I'm not criticizing Blizzard. What I mean is that there's not only a great opportunity for a small piece of lore in the Windrunners family dinner, it also seems logical to make that happen.

Vaccine · 02/08/10, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Tirion's fate seems hazey...in a sense, he's pretty much like Maiev, his existence tied to a purpose and an enemy, the Scourge. Still, he'll be nowhere near useless when the Earth-Gecko comes rumbling through the crust along with some chaos cultis-oops, Twilight...cultists. His new gang's name even seems appropriate, but I'd say that they stay in Northrend to "oversee" Bolvar. Tirion likely feels some guilt, but really, for someone lost his peers' respect and blames himself, to some extent, for the death of his son - and although this kind of things tends to pile up - I wouldn't say this last act was a breaking point. And really, it's only logical. To me, Tirion definitely secured the award for best human character alive in Warcraft. I honestly found him to be a bit of a cliche'd guy before, not showing his scars, but this time, he acted in a perfectly logical way, accepting hard evidence instead of going "Self-Sacrifice ftw". Well done, old chap.

I'm hoping we don't see any of them in Cataclysm. I've had all I can stomach of Human Male Paladins being about 50% of the important characters in WotLK, and am still disappointed that the new LK is someone as minor and unheard of as Bolvar, not to mention his Horde interaction is what, a few yells at the start of the instance and then him hanging above the throne like a rag doll doing nothing. He jumps down after and it's all "Hi guys, I'm the Lich King". Who are you again?

Not to say I dislike Tirion, the In Dreams... chain is one of my favourite's in WoW. Just bored of all the Paladins and ex-Paladins running the show. Lets get the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring involved, and maybe see some characters other than humans take the spotlight. There are 9 other races that could have some showing but if you're not Humans or too a lesser extent Orcs it seems you don't get a look in in WotLK. Bring some Tauren, Trolls, Blood and Night Elves back in. You can keep the Gnomes out though. For factions composed of soon to be 6 races each they're very skewed towards 1 race each.

I can't see much Legion presence in Cataclysm really, They don't want to over use the same enemies and we have to inevitably go to the Legion worlds I think, so they'll probably hold off on them till they get another demon-centric expansion.

Exemplar · 02/08/10, 9:30 AM

I haven't had a chance to see the Lich King encounter (our 10man was cut short both times this week, meaning we barely got to Sindragosa), so I had a lore question:
Sindragosa death through Arthas death - do Garrosh or Varian show up, or are they involved in any fashion?

Recall Blizzard's vaguely worded comment that we would gain more appreciation of our faction leaders and that they would drive directly into the beginnings of War during ICC. So far Varian granting Saurfang Sr. access to his son's body, post (militarily-)stupid Gunship battle doesn't seem to finally break Alliance/Horde relations.

Am I mis-remembering? Were we not supposed to see Alliance/Horde War as a natural state of affairs once Arthas drops? Based specifically on things that happen in ICC?

Any last minute "Oh, snap" dialogue/interaction that would set the factions at each other's throats?

Bierzkrieg · 02/08/10, 10:39 AM

Good point there, Vaccine, on the repetition of classes and races. For Cataclysm, that we know, here are the major players' classes:

- Sylvannas: Ranger (Dark)
- Greymane: Warrior, most likely
- Hellscream: Warrior (perma Recklessness-specced)
- Thrall: Shaman
- Varian: Warrior
- Furion Stormrage: Druid (Arch, not really much of a difference)
- Jaina (?): Mage
- Cairne (?): Warrior/2h enhancement shaman/1st Tauren Paladin

A rather diverse roster, with warriors taking the lead and a refreshing absence of paladins. Then again, "Warrior" seems to be the non-defining class. Whereas a druid/mage/warlock will be treated as such by half the characters they meet, warriors have the "honor" of being called by their name/rank. Which is understandable, since the drunk hobo at the back of the tavern can pick up a broken bottle and state he's going to fight demons, thus becoming as much a warrior as the arcanite-encased behemoth who's telling about the time he broke a dragon's neck by accident, while flinging a golem.

I have a feeling Cataclysm will be shaman/druid centered, as far as the main storyline (Deathwing and his bosses) is concerned. Which, while diverting from the "been there done that" paladin-goes-bad/paladin-stays-good tale, isn't something unheard of. Both Thrall and Malfurion have starred in their share of storylines and been show to wipe the floor with most foes. So, while Malfurion needs to do a major comeback and Thrall owes us proof of his so-called badassery, these two classes (along with paladins) are perhaps the biggest bruisers of the Warcraft universe, which means further Mary-Suisms should be avoided at all costs.

@Exemplar: It's a hunch, but the "last minute oops" you mention would be what takes Garrosh to the leadership of the Horde, I'd say. Should Saurfang become an ambassador to humans, peace might have a chance, but then that doesn't seem likely and Garrosh isn't interested in said peace the slightest bit. Not that Varian finds the idea of putting up with orcs a thrilling one. Varian acted towards Saurfang as a father who acknowledges another's pain. Not as a king.

Bregonn · 02/08/10, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

someone as minor and unheard of as Bolvar

I have to disagree here. As an alliance player since Classic Bolvar is the most awesome NPC alliance-side and only rivaled in-game by Tirion. Somehow single-handedly beating 8 of Onyxia's cronies each of whom hit as hard as a raid boss does leave a lasting impression.

Until this thread's discussion of Alexstrasza's comments at the Wrath Gate I've always seen him as a warrior, not a paladin too. Probably because of his cleaving in the Onyxia event (even though he also lays hands there), but also because he's not all high and mighty killing demons and undead like paladins seem to do but instead running a kingdom just because someone has to. Same thing in Wrath, he's leaving the lich-kicking to the paladins and instead runs the army. That's a warrior to me, not a paladin. But I guess you can't disagree with official lore.

Bolvar becoming the new Lich King basically follows logically, if cliche, out of his role at the Wrathgate.

On a related note, can someone tell me what is so awesome about Saurfang Sr.? To me he's just an orc standing in front of the AH whom horde players seem to consider equal to Chuck Norris. Which doesn't help him at all of course.