World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 503

Broxx · 02/08/10, 1:17 PM

Old Saurfang was awesome because of the cleave he had and (correct me if I'm wrong), an ability called Rage which pretty much auto killed anyone that crit him.

Duilliath · 02/08/10, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Broxx

Old Saurfang was awesome because of the cleave he had and (correct me if I'm wrong), an ability called Rage which pretty much auto killed anyone that crit him.

Saurfang's Rage - Spell - World of Warcraft. I'd think the tooltip itself should be enough for the Chuck Norris connection.

I agree though - it's about time the rest of the 'leaders' get off their cushy pillows and actually start doing something. Other than the Bronzebeard brothers having a quick boozer, pretty much nothing happens with the other races in this entire expansion.

obbity · 02/08/10, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

On a related note, can someone tell me what is so awesome about Saurfang Sr.? To me he's just an orc standing in front of the AH whom horde players seem to consider equal to Chuck Norris. Which doesn't help him at all of course.

Out of game lore wise, he's the brother of Broxigar.

In game lore wise, in classic he lead the Might of Kalimdor in Silithus and I have fond memories of him charging at the elites during the gate opening event and beating them down (I don't know if he self healed, was invincible, or just had a lot of health but he was unstoppable). In TBC we meet his son and do some quests that send Dranosh on the same path as his father. In WOTLK, Saurfang tempers Garrosh's bloodlust as a voice of reason and also appears several times in quests (assisting the player and sending letters to the player) not to mention interaction during the wrathgate questline and trying to motivate Thrall to keep going after the Varian / Thrall fight.

In short, Chuck Norris references aside, he's unstoppable and overpowered whenever we see him in combat yet is wise / cautious not to let the Horde fall into its old habits. I would go as far to say he is the Horde's equivalent of Bolvar.

Exemplar · 02/08/10, 2:06 PM

I played WoW long before I played WC3. And it had been many years prior that I'd played WC and WC2, so my lore knowledge was basically the booklet that came with WoW.

Saurfang and Bolvar both grew within WoW itself. They were solid, dependable types just doing their jobs. Both able to kick ass if required, but they didn't go out of their way to do so. Neither was easily fooled or power hungry - they were doing thankless jobs and doing them well.

Neither were lazy "Walk across the room and fetch me X" questgivers, nor "I'm the best badass on Azeroth and I can prove it with these 10 <low drop rate quest item) you collec... er, I mean I gathered myself." Most NPCs with which we interact are lazy or obnoxious. These guys were silent and competent.

No wonder each faction began to pump up the importance of theirs: Saurfang or Bolvar. My highest point in Wrath leveling was actually An End And A Beginning - which is just before the Wrathgate. Seeing Bolvar show up (especially greet me, since I'd done the old Ony chain) was, frankly, badass. My understanding is Saurfang is similarly badass over in Borean Tundra for the Horde leveling experience.

Until Wrath I'd wager Saurfang was unknown to Alliance (I didn't recognize the name) as much as Bolvar was unknown to Horde. But within your faction, you probably knew who they are. They definitely could have done more in-game explanation to the other faction to build up ICC a bit.

Liebestod · 02/08/10, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Broxx

Old Saurfang was awesome because of the cleave he had and (correct me if I'm wrong), an ability called Rage which pretty much auto killed anyone that crit him.

iirc this was it.

Saurfang just developed a rep as being basically impossible to kill in PvP Orgrimmar raids, much more of a hassle than Thrall/Vol'jin. Eventually some group managed it by graveyard zerging him.

Bolvar became pretty much the same way when he was buffed for the Onyxia quest chain.

Emeraude · 02/08/10, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

iirc this was it.

Saurfang just developed a rep as being basically impossible to kill in PvP Orgrimmar raids, much more of a hassle than Thrall/Vol'jin. Eventually some group managed it by graveyard zerging him.

Bolvar became pretty much the same way when he was buffed for the Onyxia quest chain.

We actually killed him with about 10 people by using a Naxx geared tank and a bunch of dot classes in classic, I was fairly sure at that point nobody else in the world had ever killed him by conventional means. It was rather downplayed and even erased from WoWwiki though, darn grumpy Hordlings.

Talk:Varok Saurfang - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Airraid · 02/08/10, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Some of the dialogue could occur after the cinematic. You just wouldn't see something like that in the videos since it's considered 'unimportant' compared to the rest. Other bits likely are mode dialogue.

You get the lore at 10% which climaxes when Tirion shatters Frostmourne, then he's killed, then the cinematic launches about 10 seconds after he hits the floor. After that the room changes, with Bolvar encased in ice on the throne and that’s pretty much it. Unless there's more with a hard mode kill (all Ulduar hard modes had more lore than the normal modes) my best guess is a quest item from hard mode.

Originally Posted by Bregonn

I have to disagree here. As an alliance player since Classic Bolvar is the most awesome NPC alliance-side and only rivaled in-game by Tirion. Somehow single-handedly beating 8 of Onyxia's cronies each of whom hit as hard as a raid boss does leave a lasting impression.

Indeed, perhaps this is missed upon by horde players but I always found Bolvar to be prominent – especially back in Vanilla. You could not spend more than 15 seconds near Stormwind Bank without having the recruitment guard yelling at someone to report to Bolvar for duty (which was the beginning of the Onyxia attunement quest line). Maybe I’m just sentimental because (as tedious as the escort quest was) I rate the Onyxia attunement as one of the best quest lines the game has ever seen, and Bolvar was a huge part of that quest. That and there were several other quests that referred to him as the de-facto king of Stormwind while Varian was missing - so you always felt his presence as alliance.

Originally Posted by Bregonn

Bolvar becoming the new Lich King basically follows logically, if cliche, out of his role at the Wrathgate.

Indeed, that’s something we've been talking about on and off from around the time Wrathgate was released. I’m not sure how I feel about it though, allot of it depends on how they play this story out. Will Bolvar be corrupted over time? Most likely, you’d have to suggest. I’m not sure if it will happen in game though. My feelings are that they’ll play this one out in the books while benching him in game, and you’d see him as a major character in something like WC4 as a build up for a new story either at level 100+ or something like WoW 2. Of course this is just wild speculation, but I can’t see them re-hashing a Lich King angle any time soon.

Emeraude · 02/08/10, 8:36 PM

If I understand it correctly the act of equipping the Helm of Domination itself causes the soul to be scarred, this is on top of whatever the Lich King was doing to Bolvar before that. The fact that he takes the helmet and attempts to isolate himself inside the block of ice is a testament to what kind of person Bolvar was in the first place.

Of course it could also be that the helm causes whoever equips it to go into a hibernation period to adjust to the new powers. Ner'zhul did it to a small extent when he first arrived in Northrend, Arthas did it, though we know what was happening behind the scenes with him mentally. No idea what Bolvar will go through, but his sleep will probably not be a pleasant one. Tal Rasha from Diablo II springs to mind.

Leviathon · 02/08/10, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

I have to disagree here. As an alliance player since Classic Bolvar is the most awesome NPC alliance-side and only rivaled in-game by Tirion. Somehow single-handedly beating 8 of Onyxia's cronies each of whom hit as hard as a raid boss does leave a lasting impression. .

That's the problem with Bolvars character though. Unless you play Alliance he pretty much a nobody and a minor character compared to others and has done very little of anything other than that small bit in Stormwind and the Wrathgate cinematic. When we found out Bolvar was the next Lich King the main response I got from my guild was 'Who?'. I just think they should of did a bit more with his character if they wanted to give him such a fate.

Cosa · 02/09/10, 2:40 AM

Huge portion of the people who care about Lore - know who Bolvar is, since many people played both Alliance and Horde. If you have WotLK starters who never played Warcraft before, it's really not a big deal if they don't know who Bolvar is.

Gruturistic · 02/09/10, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by obbity

In game lore wise, in classic he lead the Might of Kalimdor in Silithus and I have fond memories of him charging at the elites during the gate opening event and beating them down (I don't know if he self healed, was invincible, or just had a lot of health but he was unstoppable).

He was invincible. He could drop to almost 0 health but never die, when we realized that we stopped spamming him and went back to nuking anubisaths.

Bierzkrieg · 02/09/10, 5:50 AM

Although, truth be told, Saurfang Sr. doesn't really have a feat in lore that we can brag about. Yes, we can say he lead the Silithus offensive from the front lines, but nothing like "What about when Saurfang cleaved three Vrykul in once swing?" (his son did this, but in turn lacked the record sheet in the Horde forces). So, all things considered, and this pains me to some extent, even though the Highlord is a pretty nice character, Bolvar is given more reasons to justify the Awesome achievement.

One can only hope Blizzard eventually reveals a Saurfang short story or bio detailing that time when he stepped on an old god. And that the old guy isn't made a retired farmer for Cataclysm.

PS: I have to say, though, when Saurfang says the "You answer to Saurfang, now", I swear the Alliance NPCs get a debuff. It's got to be the most badass speech for a "non-monstruous" boss.

PS2: Actually, there's that quest in Borean Tundra in which he dropkicks the insides of a Necromancer and his whole posse of uber-zombies. But I'd just like to see something in lore.

Kaejin · 02/09/10, 6:37 AM

Saurfang started as an insignificant NPC other than the facts that you handed over Nefarian's head to him and he was ridiculously strong. His ridiculous power is what sparked his popularity and once Blizzard caught on, they started to develop his character.

He was revealed to be the brother of Broxigar and made commander of the Might of Kalimdor for starters, and then after a break in TBC they actually started to have him interact with the player's character.

Nearly all Horde NPCs are dismissive of the PC and only sometimes do you finally earn respect from them. Few Horde commanders have prior knowledge of the PC as opposed to Alliance commanders, or else if they do, they don't give a damn about what you've done before you met them.

Saurfang is the exception. Coming into Northrend, he's the one person who knows or cares about what the PC has done for the Horde and shows the PC the respect that you see so rarely as Horde. Whereas Alliance get accolades from pretty much every NPC in WotLK. He even goes on to save the PC from a suicide mission that Garrosh carelessly pushes on you and later sends the PC a letter in which he confides some personal views on what the Horde is doing in Northrend.

Alliance PCs are treated like the big damn heroes they are all the time. Horde PCs get Saurfang.

Bierzkrieg · 02/09/10, 7:48 AM

Agreed, although us Hordies receiving praises from only a handful of important characters (not counting the whimps at Pit of Saron) does make a lot of sense for the "red faction".

I'd still like to know how Saurfang came to be like this. He drank Mannoroth's blood, that seems pretty clear, and he commited his share of attrocities. What we're lacking is the transition. Wether he was always a father to his men, how big an impact Thrall had on him and how does he view the current Warchief. His lines at vanilla WoW, while in Orgrimmar, make it seem like he's more of an honour-bound kind of orc, rather than being "passionate" about the Warchief's views. By then, though, the character was under-developed and probably not intended to go much beyond that.

Regarding awesomeness-levels, being Broxiggar's (who is treated as the less badass character in the War of the Ancients novels, up until his final "cleave at thy titan" scene) brother actually gives us a notion of Saurfang's martial prowess, seeing as in Azeroth - like in many other fantasy settings - there's a gene for badassery (I feel the need to stress that Jr. cleaved THREE guys the size of temple pillars).

So, we know of the brother's feats and we know what the son is capable of, and it seems both of them have a spec of their own, one comprised solely on Improved [ability]s which make them overpowered on rank one and go up to five. I feel that's reason enough (and I'm being serious here) for Blizzard to consider publishing/posting/showing more about the most famous Saurfang. Plus, the old guy's approaching the end of his career, especially considering orcs may tend to live less than humans (wiki information, I assume derived from the RPG books, so assume veracity with caution). A more detailed bio, a short story that shows us how Saurfang's mindsetting changed, and a final feat of - I'll be blunt - awesomeness to get the old guy ready for his goodbyes and orcish song of praise. The first two I'd say are almost logical for a character so impacting on the playerbase. The last one doesn't strike me as too much to "ask for".

Wonder if we'll se a new High Overlord in Cataclysm, by the way. The name Aggmar just came to my head and it's disturbing to no end.

Nathanyel · 02/09/10, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Wonder if we'll se a new High Overlord in Cataclysm, by the way. The name Aggmar just came to my head and it's disturbing to no end.

Oh great, ruin my day even further.

On a more objective note, there really hasn't been anything to improve (our view of) Garrosh in ICC, is he even present except for that buff?

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Recall Blizzard's vaguely worded comment that we would gain more appreciation of our faction leaders and that they would drive directly into the beginnings of War during ICC. So far Varian granting Saurfang Sr. access to his son's body, post (militarily-)stupid Gunship battle doesn't seem to finally break Alliance/Horde relations.

Just a thought, what if something similar to the Xarantaur quests takes place, an alteration of past events, to stir war between the mortal races, to weaken them? As an elemental, the North Wind probably was as much a minion of the Old Gods as Deathwing is. Though, unless this belongs to the starting event and we are able to undo that, it would be a lame explanation for the renewed H:A hostilities in Cataclysm.