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Old 02/09/10, 8:58 AM   #7546
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
I'm no good with tracking down past Blizzard quotes - anyone who trained this skill in the raid? I'd like to re-read exactly what Blizzard said about factions/faction leaders in ICC. From what I recall they said we'd gain more of an appreciation for Garrosh and Varian in ICC and be willing to follow them in Cataclysm, however there is so much supposition in this thread that it's easy to conflate what people want/think will happen with what is actually stated.

If correct, Blizzard fell down. Varian showing up and saying "Poppa can have his kid's corpse" is nicely sentimental, but those 10 seconds don't make me bond with my faction leader and want to unthinkingly follow all his instructions in the future. I suspect Garrosh is as marginalized in ICC.

ICC wraps up the threads (as much as Blizzard ever does) of Wrath. No problems there.

ICC leading into future content - not seeing it. This makes me a sad panda. At least Samwise would be happy - the artwork is enjoyable and I am a panda, after all.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 02/09/10, 10:34 AM   #7547
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
I recall them saying we'd come to appreciate Garrosh Hellscream as a Warchief. Can't recall if the same was said about Wrynn. Since my Spider-Character-Derailment-Sense immediately went foghorn mode, I'll keep with the most logical explanation: martial minds like Hellscream's and Varian's make the most sense in a completely senseless and apeshit context (waging war while a winged T-Rex is breaking the world). Drawing real world references, it's not unheard of for governments and leaders to create or enter wars for the purpose of cementing their power and acceptance, as well as diverting their people's attention. My dear ol' Portugal, for example, entered World War I out of this. Now, Varian and Garrosh enter war out of sheer hatred for each other['s faction], but once we're at it, players will pretty much be forced to help their faction - and respective leader -, no matter how imbecile the whole thing seems to them. This will be enforced by leveling-required quests, most likely. NPCs are a no-brainer, they'll be poop-socking-cheering for the faction leaders, day and night, bar notable characters.

Agreed on the nice gesture by the human king not really tying with the main Horde-Alliance storyline come Cataclysm. In fact, since it's been confirmed that we'll pretty much be at war, said dissonance is set on stone. Maybe Varian and Saurfang will send each other letters stating how all the war business makes them sad and is bad for their kids (oh...sorry, Saurfang).

On the Aggmar thing...he's proven himself to Garrosh, otherwise he wouldn't be in charge of conquering the Isle of Conquest. He sounds and acts like Garrosh, even though he's older and thus has gone through enough things to know outright bloodlust against everything that moves is what fucked up the orcs back then (his white hair, unless a case of albino, indicates he was around at the time of the first or second Horde). So, what you have is pretty much an experienced bloodletter with a chunk of arcanite where a heart should be (the letter to Deino quest) who's magnificently loyal to his Warchief and doesn't bother him with morals or past traumas (or death threats). Maybe Garrosh will see how keeping Saurfang would be logical from a political stability point of view (going blank slate may show the troops there's too much rupture in the Thrall -> Garrosh transition). But an unquestioning right hand can't be thrown out. Of course, I hope Blizzard isn't thinking of making Aggmar a Saurfang-clone, ponderate and cool-headed.

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Old 02/09/10, 11:11 AM   #7548
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
and a final feat of - I'll be blunt - awesomeness to get the old guy ready for his goodbyes and orcish song of praise.
I'd love to see the Might of Kalimdor return as a neutral faction (Just think! An Argent Dawn-alike where Paladins aren't a dime a dozen!) to take on Deathwing and his cronies, led by a Saurfang who decided to renounce his ties to the 'New New Horde' and follow Thrall's (apparent, from what we know) lead by having no part of the faction rivalry.

If you gave me a choice between that and having Saurfang stay as the disapproving father figure constantly looking stern and shaking his head at Garrosh's antics -- since if Blizzard are trying to give us a new appreciation for Garrosh, he won't end up getting killed or ousted to restore the status quo -- I'd choose the MoK option in a heartbeat.

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Old 02/09/10, 11:20 AM   #7549
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
Seconded! But sadly it's quite possible all the war thing gets everyone in such a state of distrust that cooperation will be very, very limited. Said Might of Kalimdor will be a shadow of its former self.

And I'm not even sure how such an alliance (no pun) would be viewed by the faction leaders.

I'll still second that anytime.

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Old 02/09/10, 11:21 AM   #7550
Mr. Crow
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
Agreed on the nice gesture by the human king not really tying with the main Horde-Alliance storyline come Cataclysm. In fact, since it's been confirmed that we'll pretty much be at war, said dissonance is set on stone. Maybe Varian and Saurfang will send each other letters stating how all the war business makes them sad and is bad for their kids (oh...sorry, Saurfang).
You know, I find that Varian taking an honorable stance re: Deathmuncher Saurfang was really blown out of proportion. What might have really killed it for me is Jaina sobbing up a storm in the background because she's "proud of her king." What for? Because he chooses exactly the right moment to not be a mindless bigoted lunatic? Instead of improving Varian's character in the eyes of Alliance players, I feel like this degraded my appreciation for Jaina instead. After trucking through the ICC 5mans with her, and seeing how she'd let her emotions get the better of her once, you'd think she'd toughen up a bit during the real deal raid.

But noooo... she's weak and mopey and sad because she's a girl. And Sylvanas, as Jaina's opposite number, is no model for strong female characters because she's dead, and is pretty much Maiev Shadowsong with a better tailor and more practical weapons.

I don't think we're going to get a payoff in WotLK that will redeem Garrosh for the Horde and Varian for the Alliance. I think it was promised to us by Kisirani because that was part of the Plan... but Azjol-Nerub was part of the Plan. I want to know who keeps nerfing all the good story opportunities out of the Plan. If the story's getting cheesed because of gameplay concerns, is there any way to illustrate the give and take?

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Old 02/09/10, 11:39 AM   #7551
Mr. Crow
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
Seconded! But sadly it's quite possible all the war thing gets everyone in such a state of distrust that cooperation will be very, very limited. Said Might of Kalimdor will be a shadow of its former self.

And I'm not even sure how such an alliance (no pun) would be viewed by the faction leaders.

I'll still second that anytime.
I understood that the Alliance portion of the Might of Kalimdor went on to become the 7th Legion.

That being said, in this time of H:A hostility, it's interesting that no one has taken time to remind King Varian of that event. Part of the problem might be figuring out exactly where the Ahn'Qiraj War Effort falls in the timeline. Where was Varian when that event occurred? We know the event occurred because the Qiraji and silithid have abandoned Ahn'Qiraj in the comics, leaving the Twilight's Hammer free to camp C'thun's corpse.

Trying to reconcile the timeline would be horrendous.

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Old 02/09/10, 3:04 PM   #7552
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
Seconded! But sadly it's quite possible all the war thing gets everyone in such a state of distrust that cooperation will be very, very limited. Said Might of Kalimdor will be a shadow of its former self.
I can't see a problem with that. At the very least, it'd mean the second coming of the Might would seem less like a holy union of the greatest and most powerful and more like the survivors' last stand.

Bonus points if both the 1-60 and 80-85 content is (Even partially) about us helping the Might grow in power -- freeing besieged outposts, mounting rescue operations, establishing supply lines, salvaging broken machinery, reclaiming/rebuilding mines, mill and farms -- as we earn the trust and loyalty of local commanders and militia leaders as we move from zone to zone and help put the world to rights as we go (And do our fair share of running away when Deathwing comes to visit).

Double bonus points if it means I don't have to see the words "The Horde needs Wool Bandages" this time around.

Sure, Blizzard dropped the ball with Arthas and made him into Dick Dastardly or Snidely Whiplash with the way we kept foiling his schemes, but seeing Gryan Stoutmantle again? Fantastic. Having Saurfang the Greater acknowledge our power? Awesome.

But fighting alongside specific NPCs for all or most of an expansion, going through the same situations and having our characters develop bonds of friendship with them? Quite possibly incredible.

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Old 02/09/10, 3:49 PM   #7553
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
Nathanyel's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
I don't think we're going to get a payoff in WotLK that will redeem Garrosh for the Horde and Varian for the Alliance. I think it was promised to us by Kisirani because that was part of the Plan... but Azjol-Nerub was part of the Plan.
As with the current "wah why is there lag when I'm paying X dollas" whine, I could reply more harshly here, but let's just say, that Kisirani quote was merely a month or two ago, and this is a pretty substantial part of Cata's storyline, unlike Azjol-Nerub, which was more or a sidestory even with Yogg-Saron as the end boss.

Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
I can't see a problem with that. At the very least, it'd mean the second coming of the Might would seem less like a holy union of the greatest and most powerful and more like the survivors' last stand.
Though as it seems, future expansions will continue that "war" trend, else the pvp-ists would whine again that there aren't enough animosities between the factions anymore. Of course, once we leave Azeroth again, it will be as silly as the "Capitalist West vs. Communist East - in Space!" storyline of Starlancer.
Let's face it, the "cold war" of Classic/BC/early WotLK was the best state, it allowed occasional battles, from "open PvP" to battlegrounds and even Wintergrasp, but an all-out war just doesn't fit into a world where there are bigger threats.
You can either have a PvE-focussed game, or a PvP-focussed game.
A game where the players duke out the right to enter the big bad's lair while that big bad just sits inside waiting for the winner is just lame.

Last edited by Nathanyel : 02/09/10 at 3:58 PM.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 02/09/10, 4:20 PM   #7554
Mr. Crow
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
As with the current "wah why is there lag when I'm paying X dollas" whine, I could reply more harshly here, but let's just say, that Kisirani quote was merely a month or two ago, and this is a pretty substantial part of Cata's storyline, unlike Azjol-Nerub, which was more or a sidestory even with Yogg-Saron as the end boss.
That did come out pretty whiny, didn't it? My apologies.

Well, what's the list of things they've talked about doing prior to Cataclysm from a lore perspective?

1. There will be an event, similar to the Zombie Plague/Scourge Invasion, that will herald Cataclysm and introduce us to Deathwing the Seismic Distrubance.

2. Garrosh and Varian Wrynn will take their rightful places as well-loved iconic leaders of the Horde/Alliance, while also swearing bloody vengeance against one another.

3. Further explanations/establishments for the Sunwalker Tauren (Tauren Paladins/Priests), the Highborne, (NE Mages) and all the other new race/class combinations will be snuck in.

What else?

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Old 02/09/10, 4:44 PM   #7555
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
3. Further explanations/establishments for the Sunwalker Tauren (Tauren Paladins/Priests), the Highborne, (NE Mages) and all the other new race/class combinations will be snuck in.
Most combos don't really need explanations anyway, and Tauren Paladins/Priests, NElf Mages and Dwarven Shamans don't need so much an establishments/introduction than a definition what they are: not wielders of the Holy Light, but the powers of An'she, not "Night Elves", but Highborne/Shen'dralar, and Wildhammers instead of Bronzebeards.

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 02/09/10, 4:59 PM   #7556
Mr. Crow
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
Most combos don't really need explanations anyway, and Tauren Paladins/Priests, NElf Mages and Dwarven Shamans don't need so much an establishments/introduction than a definition what they are: not wielders of the Holy Light, but the powers of An'she, not "Night Elves", but Highborne/Shen'dralar, and Wildhammers instead of Bronzebeards.
You don't think they'll do the short quests/scripted events for the rest of the combinations? I'm almost expecting that we'd get short-story like material, such as what was used to justify the Blood Knights / Draenei shamans prior to BC.

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Old 02/09/10, 5:11 PM   #7557
ildon
Collateral Damage
 
ildon's Avatar
 
Undead Priest
 
Whisperwind
Don't forget the troll druids! I haven't seen any attempt to explain them yet. It's possible I just missed it.

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Old 02/09/10, 5:51 PM   #7558
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
Troll Druids don't need as much -- if any -- validation. You're talking about a species whose culture revolves around their animal gods. Stands to reason all it'd take for them to get Druids is for one Troll to say "I wanna be a bear, mon!"

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Old 02/09/10, 6:02 PM   #7559
andastra
Don Flamenco
 
Human Mage
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
You know, I find that Varian taking an honorable stance re: Deathmuncher Saurfang was really blown out of proportion. What might have really killed it for me is Jaina sobbing up a storm in the background because she's "proud of her king." What for? Because he chooses exactly the right moment to not be a mindless bigoted lunatic? Instead of improving Varian's character in the eyes of Alliance players, I feel like this degraded my appreciation for Jaina instead. After trucking through the ICC 5mans with her, and seeing how she'd let her emotions get the better of her once, you'd think she'd toughen up a bit during the real deal raid.

But noooo... she's weak and mopey and sad because she's a girl. And Sylvanas, as Jaina's opposite number, is no model for strong female characters because she's dead, and is pretty much Maiev Shadowsong with a better tailor and more practical weapons.

I don't think we're going to get a payoff in WotLK that will redeem Garrosh for the Horde and Varian for the Alliance. I think it was promised to us by Kisirani because that was part of the Plan... but Azjol-Nerub was part of the Plan. I want to know who keeps nerfing all the good story opportunities out of the Plan. If the story's getting cheesed because of gameplay concerns, is there any way to illustrate the give and take?


That really killed it for me as well. It feels out of character coming out of Jaina. She did, after all, step aside for Rexxar while he killed her father. Sure, Arthas is an ex-boyfriend, but she was essentially characterized as a weepy, damsel in distress type in ICC.

Calling Varian her king looks like a lore mistake as well, considering Jaina's father is the ruler of his own nation (Kul Tiras) and she's essentially leading the remnants of another nation (Lordaeron).

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Old 02/09/10, 6:49 PM   #7560
Nehrak
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Llane
Delete me - I can't read apparently.

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