World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 509

Kaejin · 02/17/10, 8:21 PM

Oh.

Well, in that case it sets up an "evil" druid faction, I guess.

Nathanyel · 02/18/10, 4:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

On Staghelm's death [...] Blizzard's treatment of having them fall to the dark side is turning out be their cure for most non-1-dimensional characters.

Well you can't say Staghelm ever had more dimensions than the xenophobia one.

Bierzkrieg · 02/18/10, 7:05 AM

Well, it's not like he was Garithos, he'd lost a son and led a war against a horde of bloodthirsty insects which went back and forth a number of times. And maybe we can call it xenophobia, but he had reasons for being like he was - of course he was being an extremist - even if it was utterly wrong.

So, us not being "lore-what's-that-Joes", knowing Staghelms reasons for being the bitter sunnova...he was made all the difference, I think.

But now we find out he was being manipulated. In very much the same way as the orcs were, through an image of his loved one. Good one, superior race guy. Also, Kaejin got it right, having a B-Class villain (or were you thinking even lower-class?) who isn't even a master strategist or known for tzeenchian schemes bother Ysera and her whole realm...

About the Cataclysm lead-in: Could Ragnaros be lying in hiding, so as not to expose his plans or intentions? Or is Pyranos just his second-in-command, sent to parlay with Deathwingy? I'd probably send someone else, too, if I was Ragnaros. To delegate is to prolong one's life.

Enova · 02/18/10, 7:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

Well you can't say Staghelm ever had more dimensions than the xenophobia one.

Nah, xenophobia would have granted him some mild depth. He was a jerk to night elf lowbies as well... Come to think of it, he was a jerk to his direct superior (Malfurion) and the ruler of Darnassus (Tyrande). He was simply a douchebag...

I'll have to admit that while I love the Blizzard spawned universe and all, they simply suck at anything remotely connected to character build-up or shades of gray. I'll just roll with their simplified version and stick around to see what that amounts to in the game, eventually...

EDIT: Just missed Bierz' post (yeah, I need to refresh more often)

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Well, it's not like he was Garithos, he'd lost a son and led a war against a horde of bloodthirsty insects which went back and forth a number of times. And maybe we can call it xenophobia, but he had reasons for being like he was - of course he was being an extremist - even if it was utterly wrong.

So, us not being "lore-what's-that-Joes", knowing Staghelms reasons for being the bitter sunnova...he was made all the difference, I think.

But now we find out he was being manipulated. In very much the same way as the orcs were, through an image of his loved one. Good one, superior race guy. Also, Kaejin got it right, having a B-Class villain (or were you thinking even lower-class?) who isn't even a master strategist or known for tzeenchian schemes bother Ysera and her whole realm...

I can honestly understand Staghelm's past. I can even see potential for a good backstory to the character, but I seem to recall him as being a jerk even before the first Qiraji war.
However, I cannot understand the leap of logic that translates "I'm a pretty average tactician who send my son to certain death because I was arrogant and didn't trust anyone else" into "Everyone whose last name isn't Staghelm is an incompetent fool, deserving of nothing but my contempt"

Blayze · 02/18/10, 8:01 AM

So in one single book Knaak manages to ruin the Emerald Nightmare, the only remaining Night Elf with a personality and Night Elf society (They don't marry, as far as I'm aware) -- and Xavius should become a bloody Dreadlord if he keeps returning. That man's got writing skills, but they're the wrong sort.

Fandral's not as much of a jerk as he's made out to be, though -- at least in game. I don't know about the P&P game. He's still a jerk, true, but I bet the book Flanderises him beyond all hope of recovery.

Quest:The Crystal of Zin-Malor - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Quest:Wildkin of Elune - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Quest:Teldrassil - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Quest:Grove of the Ancients - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

^ The above are all quests where you interact with Staghelm. After reading them over again, he doesn't seem like that much of a jerk -- just someone who isn't favoured by Metzen like Jesus Stormrage is.

Monocle · 02/18/10, 10:16 AM

There have been some reports that the orc is Garrosh, but nothing that has totally convinced me. I can ask my friend who took the pictures or his wife, as they were both in the DC Direct Showroom. She actually has a good chance of knowing, she really hates Garrosh so she likely would have asked. I may not be able to do so until the weekend though.

That being said, I am leaning toward it being him. With all the build-up Blizzard has been giving him, it makes sense. It looks like he is going out of his way to both emulate his Dad and use him as a symbol to help consolidate his authority. Grom is the closest thing to a saint the Orcs have right now. It looks like Garrosh may even be incorporating the tusks from the Mannoroth skull into his new armor. It also matches up with the comic depiction pretty well, minus the tattoos. Now how he got Gorehowl, no idea, but it dropping from Prince never made much sense anyway. Maybe Blizzard will commission a piece of fiction detailing how he got it, or it will be the focus of a new Horde questline in Ashenvale where a player finds it and brings it back to Garrosh.

It also means that Thrall likely will keep the Doomhammer when he departs.

Now DC Direct has been making a move toward releasing figures of more famous lore characters. Before the only ones they made were Illidan and Vashj, and both of those were bosses and Deluxe Figures. I'm guessing even despite the cost, both sold well. Illidan certainly did, he got a recolor, the only figure in the line to do so. Also with the comics basically now done, they do lack a resource to get new characters from, and major Lore characters will sell, something especially good in the current economic climate. Yeah they do have figures with no fiction attached to them, but giving them a story does help sales a bit, even if their comic apperances never did match up well to their figure releases.

Whew that was a bit more on the topic then I intended, but yeah after going to Toy Fair so many times, you do pick up a few things on how these companies think.

Anyway now on the "Stormrage" stuff. I am extremely disappointed if that ends up to be true, as I was looking forward to visiting the Emerald Dream since the game was released. Will miss Staghelm too, I liked him. It does sound like he will be a boss somewhere though, which would give a lot of players something they always wanted to do, well Alliance players anyway, which is a shame. I was hoping we would be able to fight Xavius down the line too, and that looks like it is gone as well. The entire thing just looks like it is wrapping up a lot of loose plotlines that Blizzard does not want to deal with anymore, and with the changes in Cataclysm, will no longer be in the game anymore either.

Exemplar · 02/18/10, 10:36 AM

Not to spur wishlists, but one has to seriously wonder:
Cataclysm is 80-85, but it was never expressed this was to reduce scaling issues (barring talent points, potentially). In fact Stam is supposed to make another big jump like it did Vanilla to BC. The reasoning has been theorized to extend WoW lifespan, since L100 is a conjectured endpoint.

So with Cata touching on the elemental planes, Neltharion, and (in passing/to build up) Azshara, we're left with Titans, Burning Legion, Azshara herself, and the Emerald Dream for future content. Chopping the Emerald Dream out of possible expansion territory really reduces future possibilities. We really don't want things to eventually devolve to Pigs in Space... er... Orcs in Space. Really makes me wonder what they're thinking long-term if they're "solving" the Emerald Dream in a book.

Semi-apropos and since this is the lore thread and we often discuss future instances, I'll share the best joke I've heard lately: What's the name of the next Troll instance? Zul'Again!

Bierzkrieg · 02/18/10, 10:55 AM

If that isn't Garrosh, then DC Direct needs to tell the sculptors and designers not to pick on cool ideas from main characters "just because". Apart from that, I don't see someone who's aware of Warcraft lore incorporating a black jaw and (allmighty) Axe design without a thought on how fans would draw immediate conclusions. Hadn't thought of those tusks as being Mannoroth's, it makes perfect sense, thanks for pointing that out.

Here it is: Sons of the Storm

Notice the similarities. Both Grom (Samwise's depiction is "official", barring the absence of the shoulder pad and the axe) and the Mag'har figure have a profusion of cloth with a somewhat "mundane" touch, simple trousers, not traditional like the blademasters', nor armored like warriors'. Their kneepads are similar, as are their gauntlets, and then there's the bare chest (admitedly, more common among orcs, although not so much now) and the big belt. Honestly, the only "good" (and it would be horrible) explanation I can see for that figure not being Garrosh is if the artist saw a picture of Grom and thought "oh, such interesting elements, let's use them on this random orc" without regard to the symbolism.

I don't believe Thrall would hand Doomhammer to anyone but his perceived successor. The black bunker is another thing, perhaps, I still think we may see Garrosh donning it, as awkward as it seems.

Monocle · 02/18/10, 12:36 PM

There is another thing, DC Direct has to submit each and every figure to Blizzard multiple times for approvals before they can even display them. Even then, stuff has been hidden behind "No Photos Please!" areas. The Starcraft stuff further in the gallery I linked a page back is an example of when this occurs in the DC Direct showroom. Some years I had to sign NDA's to even be allowed to view the stuff. Blizzard is very concerned about the QC for these figures.

This is another clincher that this is Garrosh, because Blizzard would have never let this design go out of the door without being fully aware of all the details on it. That figure looks like a production ready piece, so he's pretty much done and in the can.

Hmm I should ask my friends if anything was in the no photo, but talk is allowed category, we may get some interesting info.

Bierzkrieg · 02/18/10, 12:43 PM

Actually, had Blizzard "dressed" Garrosh like that figure, I might have respected the guy more. It really looks like an even more bloodthirsty version of Grom...Christ, he's wearing tusks!

It really shows the orc's mindset in its full maimkillburn glory, whoever that is.

Exemplar · 02/18/10, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Actually, had Blizzard "dressed" Garrosh like that figure, I might have respected the guy more. It really looks like an even more bloodthirsty version of Grom...Christ, he's wearing tusks!

It really shows the orc's mindset in its full maimkillburn glory, whoever that is.

Respect, yes, the same way you respect a mugger or bank robber. Want leading any type of organization other than "Kill it, then eat it," not so much. Even a successful military isn't "charge at them with superior individual power." Insert visual of Romans vs. Germans at the beginning of Gladiator.

He looks like the type of guy even others in the community would cross the street and not make eye contact. You know, that guy who seems to have a loose grasp plus definition of enemy (as loose as, your pet diddled on my yard) and one action to take against any enemy.

If Garrosh played WC3, he'd make only Grunts up to the resource limit, then run them around the map. Possibly to all be destroyed by the AI's single Mortar Team. Let's hope he listens to advice, such as from Saurfang Sr., that would mobilize a more distributed and effective mass of troops.

Leviathon · 02/18/10, 4:27 PM

In a interview with Chilton it seems we got the location of the raid between ICC and Cataclysm which would be the Ruby Sanctum.

Afterwords: World of Warcraft: Wrath Of The Lich King - World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King - PC - GameInformer.com

That is a possibility. We can’t say for sure at this point, but we are looking into the possibility of having a boss in the Ruby Sanctum, which is another part of Wyrmrest Temple. It’s a little too early to have a lot of details on that, but I wouldn’t characterize it as a huge chunk of content. It’s not a patch 3.4 or anything.

Originally Posted by Blayze

So in one single book Knaak manages to ruin the Emerald Nightmare, the only remaining Night Elf with a personality and Night Elf society (They don't marry, as far as I'm aware) -- and Xavius should become a bloody Dreadlord if he keeps returning. That man's got writing skills, but they're the wrong sort..

Well it's pretty hinted that Xavius was serving a higher power so the Nightmare isn't necessarily gone.

Xaoc · 02/18/10, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

In fact Stam is supposed to make another big jump like it did Vanilla to BC. The reasoning has been theorized to extend WoW lifespan, since L100 is a conjectured endpoint.

I believe a more reasonable assumption is because they are removing all of the combat ratings (haste, crit, spellpower, etc..) from gear. This means that from an item budget standpoint, all of that gets moved to stam.

Cireena · 02/18/10, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Xaoc

they are removing all of the combat ratings (haste, crit, spellpower, etc..) from gear.

They are not removing ALL combat ratings from gear. GC has stated such. They are removing AP, SO, and Arp. Casters will get Int and Stam base and 2 from Crit, Haste, and Mastery, with Hit or Spi being split between healers and DPS. Physical will get [Str/Agi, Stam] base and 2 from Crit, Haste, Mastery, Hit, and Exp. I will look to find the quote for you where this was stated by him.

Grigorim · 02/18/10, 7:13 PM

Any ideas as to why we're going to be killing a Red Dragon? Blue could be a Malygos remnant, Green could be corrupted by the nightmare, Bronze could be Infinite or similarly corrupted, and we've already done Black. Red just seems completely random.