World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 516

Kaejin · 02/24/10, 6:59 PM

If Cairne does indeed go missing from TB (perhaps to join Thrall in the Earthen Ring faction, rather than be assassinated like it was originally rumored), I could see Magatha make a grab for power and invite some of the Grimtotem to TB to make a larger presence of their faction.

That's based entirely on the assumption that something does happen to Cairne, though.

As far as the Naaru, I don't expect they would ever go so far as become evil, but as a race they don't necessarily have the same moral standards and perceptions of good and evil, and I don't see all of the decisions they might make resonating well with mortals.

So far so good, but who knows what will happen in the future.

Absolute good is a hard thing to buy in a universe that usually ranges from black to gray and has a history of anything falling in the white range becoming corrupt eventually.

Itzena · 02/24/10, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Most likely they'll start "showing" their belief in the Light gained from the contact with humans, dwarfs and draenei.

I don't know...it's just as likely that they'll turn to Titan-worship now that the gnomes know that they were created by them, rather than the "Well, the dwarves are fairly sure that they were Titan-made and we're kinda like dwarves, so...." from Uldum.

Sky_Paladin · 02/24/10, 8:14 PM

I always assumed that the Naaru represented 'Law', on the Dungeon and Dragons Lawful/Chaotic and Good/Evil scale.

Then I encountered the Aldor elevator in Shattrath, and realised they were actually evil. Back in Burning Crusade, more skulls littered that gaping maw in offering to A'dal than those strewn in the Path of Glory.

Cireena · 02/24/10, 9:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sky_Paladin

I always assumed that the Naaru represented 'Law'

I assumed they were good, and the Titans with their clockwork efficiency were Law, leaving the Legion as Evil, and the Old Gods as Chaos.

Kazanir · 02/24/10, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Blizzard's been wrong on their math before - again I point to 3D. Their math said it was impossible (not improbable) in the initial gear. This obviously wasn't true.

This is a fallacy. Blizzard stated VERY early in the development of Sartharion's "hard mode" that they expected people to need much better gear to beat the encounter than was available initially. That was changed during the beta for Wrath and it is obvious that they intended Sarth+3 to be beatable in Naxx gear by the inclusion of the achievement on the Proto-Drake reward metas for both 10 and 25. (The metas which had their rewards removed as soon as Ulduar was released.) The release of Sarth+3 that we saw on live servers was tuned to be beatable in Naxx gear, it wasn't an unexpected failure by Blizzard; you're just repeating old and false information.

Airraid · 02/24/10, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Leguaran

This leads credence to the hypothesis brought up here that the sound files for the characters above were linked to a drop from heroic Arthas. Note that all items involved in the quests are only refered to through their IDs, and all quest text, except the first one, is still blank.

I wonder why these weren't in earlier, when 3.3 came out, and still, presumably, aren't on live. Does Blizzard have that much faith that LK25Heroic won't be dead by 3.3.5?

Great find! Well no guarantees yet but it's looking slightly more plausible than speculative now. The sound files just didn't make sense and my gut feeling suggested that there'd be a drop from Arthas to accommodate them. Now to see if the second theory (10 man being rewarded with Darion's mount) also stacks up.

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Blizzard probably had Arthas' health buff in mind from the start.

I doubt that; as mentioned earlier Blizzard have been completely off the mark with DPS benchmarks a few times expansion. You need look no further them changing Hodir's hard mode timer and taking a minute off on the first week after one guild had already killed it. The change was more likely because top guilds progressed through ICC hard modes much faster than they anticipated, so rather than buff the already dead bosses (and face the same riots of the forums that they did for Hodir) they buffed the only one still up. The Russian 10 man guild that had made it to Arthas logged in after after their first round of attempts and found he'd suddenly gained 7 million HP overnight.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

If Heroic LK is missing loot (for unknown reason - the instant it's available the world will know, regardless of kill status, Blizzard's design makes it impossible to keep the cat in the bag these days) and it is added later, then I feel sorry for those World Class Guilds that kill him before the loot is in place.

It's an interesting one. I've always assumed that they intended to have these drops from Arthas/lore moments because the matching sound files have been in the game since Arthas was available. Why they've held them back is anyone's guess. Could be anything from a bug to waiting to see what items needed to be added to the game - but it's certainly not the first time they've added items to loot tables after they're live (as a previous poster mentioned, Kael is a great example). It's likely that the HP buffs were intended to prevent the above situation taking place nonetheless, they don't want him dead yet so they're obviously making it as difficult as possible. I'll be intrigued if someone works their way around it, but given how long it took them to apply nerfs to the ridiculously overtuned Yogg 0 (~three months for the first kill) I wouldn't be too optimistic that it's high on their agenda.

Dioneirra · 02/25/10, 3:53 AM

There is still the posibility that the Arthas-related soundfiles and everything connected to it is not part of the usual progression path, but another way choosen by Blizzard to offer a wide playerbase a closer connection to their faction leaders/lore being told through ICC.

The Ashen Verdict war effort, which will start at somepoint in the future, should enable quite a large numbers of players to reach (and hopefully even kill) Arthas, be it within a 10 or a 25 raid. Even if only farfetched, it would make sense from the viewpoint of a designer to lock down an additionally planed drop or quest (which most likely will only be lore related, nothing to be gained from), until a certain number of players are actually able to appreciate it. Progression guilds will not loose anything by it (they can always PuG it later for fun, if they are making a Cataclysm break), and casual players won't feel like they are being ignored again.

Bierzkrieg · 02/25/10, 6:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

If Cairne does indeed go missing from TB (perhaps to join Thrall in the Earthen Ring faction, rather than be assassinated like it was originally rumored), I could see Magatha make a grab for power and invite some of the Grimtotem to TB to make a larger presence of their faction.

That's based entirely on the assumption that something does happen to Cairne, though.

As far as the Naaru, I don't expect they would ever go so far as become evil, but as a race they don't necessarily have the same moral standards and perceptions of good and evil, and I don't see all of the decisions they might make resonating well with mortals.

So far so good, but who knows what will happen in the future.

Absolute good is a hard thing to buy in a universe that usually ranges from black to gray and has a history of anything falling in the white range becoming corrupt eventually.

Though it shames me greatly, at this point I wouldn't mind Cairne dying if it happened during a true and pure demonstration of badassness. The poor guy - who was a key supporter (in the "Giant Halberd-swinging minotaur" sense of "supporting") to Thrall in the RTS's - has been sadly put in the role of a tired old man(-bull) who seems completely oblivious to the plotting around him. Which would be fine - he is a somewhat "innocent" character, one of the many reasons I like him - if he actually HAD other things to think about or do. So, if all Blizzard plans for the old bull is to have him leave his position, go with Thrall on a "mystical journey" and do nothing but save children and heal the bloody land, all the while in a perfectly secondary role, then yeah, have him killed, then, but do it right. Having a perfectly capable Badass Grandpa treated has lethargic or senile is agonizing.

Naaru have already shown they can "switch sides". It's in fact part of their life cycle. They're simply too "pure" (energy-wise) for said change to happen out of morals or changes of heart. A'dal is arguably at demigod level, in terms of power, and Naaru are almost Light-elementals. Those kinds of characteristics tend to make a being "absolute" - and think in absolute terms. Which A'dal does while being a pretty nice guy. You can actually have a drink with a Naaru after a battle.

Vaccine · 02/25/10, 6:46 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Though it shames me greatly, at this point I wouldn't mind Cairne dying

That's because you have a strange fetish for characters dying. It was all, "Oh yer, Saurfang Senior is going to die so badly, I called, it's gonna happen!" and now you've gotten on to poor Cairne?

Bierzkrieg · 02/25/10, 6:55 AM

Well, yes, I like a good (real) death and well done shocking moment, though I understand this is Warcraft and not a Punisher story.

And regarding Cairne, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, rather that it would be preferable to him staying in this limbo.

Edit: In fact, since you're pushing me, here's a list of plausible (or desirable, through my bloodshot eyes) deaths of main characters. Reasons for said deaths are added. Note that they may conflict with each other, as it's obviously not plausible that all of these guys die and Blizzard's intentions for the storyline are unknown, character-by-character wise.

Cairne - Killed by Garrosh, adding to the sense of "uneasiness" (to put it mildly) within the Horde. Plus it underlines(to put it mildly) Garrosh's iron grip (to put it mildly) on the faction.

- Killed by the Alliance during the raid on Camp Taurajo. Garrosh uses this to fuel the faction war.

Varok Saurfang - Killed in a battle with the Alliance. Even better, during an ambush on him. May be a reason for Garrosh to drop his MAIMKILLBURN stance, while also uniting the Horde in the war against the Alliance.

Thrall - Should Metzen think Warcraft is starting to resemble My Little Pony a bit too much, all he has to do is have Thrall killed. He's being captured and saved by a level 10- character, so that's a good start. Now let's have his and Deathwing's paths cross at some point during the storyline. The former Warchief puts up an awesome fight, it even seems he'll survive, but then cultist/black dragon/mook intervenes and queue lava torrent to the face. Forum uproar should be audible during the coming weeks.

Varian Wrynn - It's been said by Blizzard-dwellers before that the Horde should be viewed as "less good" (my words) than the Alliance, seeing as an orc tends to go to battle with something disturbingly akin to at least a grin. Which he keeps while drenched in blood. Plus, a faction war is brewing and will be pretty much at full force during Cata. Varian has a point about the Wrathgate. Biased and narrow-minded, but a point. His storyline (much as his character) is also very intensive, meaning that, like Garrosh, he'll grow annoying very quickly. Unlike Garrosh, though, he isn't having a change of heart to counter that. And Anduin is coming of age and, being a human character, that means he needs to witness a tragedy to become a man. Hence, Varian's death (of course, something for the late Cata storyline) would be a great plot-driver and probably second only to Thrall and Jaina's deaths in terms of impact. It serves the faction war, Deathwing and Anduin's storylines. However, he's a guy whose life has been (to put it mildly) shittier than thou's. So jamming another pile of crap in an already overflowing crapsack may not be advisable.

Jaina - See Thrall. Oh, wait, no, add Thrall's for absolute mayhem. Let them die after professing their love - or, if Blizzard thinks 11 million subscribers is a bit too many, just at the moment prior to said sharing of feelings.

Vol'Jin - Actually, a serious one. It's probably too late for the poor guy to get the respect he might've deserved, once. So have him die while retaking his lost home from Zalazane. A new (and meaningful) Troll character is long overdue.

Sylvannas - I do wonder what would happen if Varian got to meet her. She causes mixed reactions among the playerbase, and is a very interesting character - which, to most people, would mean she shouldn't die - but has also walked a fine line for...well, ever since she became an undead. You enlist Dreadlords, create a plan to melt the dead and living alike which backfires terribly because the Dreadlord you enlisted betrayed you (how could he!), almost get killed by the human king, pretty much confess to the Warchief your terrible plan, and, finally, hunt the most poweful villain in the world like a madwoman. Well, you've got to expect fate to meet up with you, eventually, right?

Now, please take these with the same grain of salt I'm writing them with. I really don't think there are unkillable characters, so long as their demise is well done, but forcing deaths for the lulz or as a cheap plot device is NOT my cup of tea.

Exemplar · 02/25/10, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

If Cairne does indeed go missing from TB (perhaps to join Thrall in the Earthen Ring faction, rather than be assassinated like it was originally rumored), I could see Magatha make a grab for power and invite some of the Grimtotem to TB to make a larger presence of their faction.

There are plenty of good options with Grimtotem. Invasion force if TB is weakened, then business as usual with them in charge. Petitioners on best behaviour. Invited in by Magatha. It's even quite possible that post-cataclysm, since the Grimtotem aren't in the relatively mild/protected Mulgore-TB area that they were hit very hard. Cairne could reach out the hand of friendship to a weakened clan in attempts at reconciliation (to return them from the Dark Side).

Arthas quest items - there's another possibility that just tickled my mind. It's completely independent of the current Heroic mode. Suppose when the raid buffs go active Blizzard adds NPCs to assist during the fight (beyond iceblocked Tirion). Perhaps one NPC per level of the buff (5 to 30 by 5s, so total of 6). Opt out of part of the buff by asking that NPC to sideline (reverse process of Watchers in Ulduar). Arthas drops a quest item which happens to correspond to the NPC you asked to not help, so you could "pick" which quest item (or items if you want multiple levels of buff removed) the raid would receive. Said NPCs can also be frostblocked (to not affect the battle, itself) - whether they're active or not just determines how much of the raid buff you receive.

We know you can opt out of the raid buff, but other than bragging purposes (which are hard to prove unless spell damage ranges are compared to prove buff level present) there has been no reason to remove the buff. If removal of the buff gives other bonus, in this case bragging right items like mounts and tabards, it's closer to some of the special rewards from Tribute style achievements.

No raid buff, no NPCs, no opt out, no need for quest loot, no missing loot. This would salve my mind. Just because Blizzard shafted high end guilds in the past with quest drops (as people keep pointing out, Kael'thas) is no excuse to do it again. A guild wanting all 25 raiders (plus rotating members?) to get the benefit would have to farm for half a year, adding more weeks would be unpleasant. Unless it's a drops-for-everyone-present item.

Vaccine · 02/25/10, 10:11 AM

Well it's certainly the weirdest wish-list I've ever seen.

Cairne - I don't see Garrosh having anything to do with his death. I'd said many moons ago it would be cool if him and Magatha were in cahoots to plot his downfall, but since then we've had their intention to keep him around and make him a somewhat likeable figure. I guess that change will come during Cata events so I don't see him doing something like that as a start to his reign. Dying in battle is fine so long as there is a reason for it, not just (mild) shock for the sake of shocking people. A greater storyline about Magatha orchestrating his demise might be cool, maybe even allied with the Twilight for her own ends.

Saurfang - I don't see this happening. For better or worse he has been painted as the strongest warrior out there. I also think they'll build him up as a restraining father figure for Garrosh as part of his personality shift, he will start listening to him on some points and use him as his chief advisor.

Thrall - Never going to happen. He is worth too much for Blizz and they don't have the balls to kill off who is pretty much their main character now. Maybe in WC4 or something when they can introduce new replacements but I just don't see it now. I think they are setting him up for a role akin to Tirion was for WotLK, the central NPC vs Deathwing, one that both sides can relate too. But it is possible, would be cool to see him and his crack squad of Earthen Ring shaman fighting Deathwing. I imagine Thrall could go toe to toe with him at least for the spell casting side due to Thrall being like the Elements Neo or something and Deathwing using so many elemental attacks.

Wyrnn - I'd like him die to but maybe thats just me being bias. I think 'The Chin' will be around for a long time to come. Would be nice to see him raising his son though as a replacement.

Jaina - I hate Jaina these days. She seems to be really badly written and just starts to get annoying. I was hoping in the run up to ToGC that after the way she was being treated she may declare neutrality for Theramore and separate from the Alliance, show some strength. But like the soppy milk maid she is she takes it all and asks for more from Varian.

Vol'Jin - This just seems like wanting a character's death for the sake of a character dying. Why do we need a new troll hero? They've done nothing with this one, it willl be fine if they start getting all the faction leaders involved and start giving him some stuff to do.

Sylvannas - They can't seem to make up their mind on whether she should be good or bad yet. I like the idea of her fighting for justice for the Forsaken at their mistreatment by the humans, but she seems to flit between that and crazed lunatic evil bint at the drop of a hat. If she dies though theres no real clear successor. I'd love for them to retcon Nathanos Blightcaller back to life, and have him as her 2nd. Then you could kill her and we'd have the best character ever implemented in charge.

Blayze · 02/25/10, 10:16 AM

Cairne could reach out the hand of friendship to a weakened clan in attempts at reconciliation (to return them from the Dark Side).

Especially if their Feralas and Dustwallow bases are hit hard by the Cataclysm. Cairne probably would offer to harbour them. He's not stupid, though. If he disappears or dies, the finger of suspicion should inevitably point toward the Grimtotem.

Bierzkrieg · 02/25/10, 10:50 AM

Agreed on most of your assessments, with one exception-and-a-half:

Vol'Jin - I think we're really past the point where getting us to truly respect him won't take some crazy awesome (with emphasis on crazy, in the loony and a bit over-the-top-ridiculous sense) act by him or an overuse of "minor" awesome acts. He's been inactive for too long, especially for a character with little to no background. Blizzard even treats him as being old, which is strange, seeing as he himself is the the son of an old witch doctor. There are tons of plausible explanations, of course, sons and fathers with approximate (relatively speaking) ages isn't a fantasy theme, but the general feeling is that even Blizzard doesn't put much faith in him. I'm ready to give him a chance, but more than a little skeptic that the retaking of the Isles can do the trick. Plus, with the eviction of the majority of races from Orgrimmar, a more proeminent troll leader may be needed. Of course, this doesn't (and shouldn't) mean they get Vol'Jin killed. I went berserk there, truly. Whisper: although, a well-done death can't harm anyone, can it?

Cairne - I'm fighting the word of God here, but I still don't buy Garrosh's promised change of heart yet. At least without a brutal suspension of disbelief. This puts me on the lunatic (and wrong) side, by fighting an announced fact - by Blizzard - but my feeling right now is that Garrosh isn't changing so much as the circumstances surrounding him will. Hence, we'll either "like" him (his feats in the coming war, assuming there are any, will surely award him some serious respect even by those who don't like him, somewhat like Varian) or be put to the axe - possible exaggeration. A plot by Magatha is a good idea, though, and one that could potentialy change that old hag from a perma-foiled-planner to a real bitch.

Kuku · 02/25/10, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Those item's don't exist yet on live realms so they won't show on the armory. Now I'd guess the quest item will drop from hard mode Arthas only though and not normal mode (I bet the buff to Arthas' hp was to ensure he'd live till 3.3.3).

The Lich King's items have been on the armory since 3.3.2 (when he was added), including heroic items. They don't "exist" on live realms, yet they are still on the armory. You can clearly see that he drops Invincible's Reins on heroic mode just by browsing the armory. I just wanted to point out that, killed or not, those items are not currently on his loot table.

As others have stated, they will probably be added in with a future patch. If that is what you were implying, then feel free to ignore my post :P