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Old 02/28/10, 8:10 PM   #7786
Nathanyel
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
It would be pure irony if those very deviances you mentioned would be among the causes for the creation of the Infinite Dragonflight in the "future" (in the subjective "timeline" of the timeless dragons, however that may look like)

Tender Puregrove: It's those little victores that keep me going. We'll save this forest one squirrel at a time.

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Old 03/01/10, 12:08 AM   #7787
Charmin
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shadowmoon
Originally Posted by shed View Post
That's fine, I buy it. It was painfully obvious to be during Ulduar and when going into the brain room during phase 2 every time and seeing the corruption to the old world events that Yogg was responsible for that he was also responsible for some of Arthas's or LK's corruption.
I didn't necessarily take this as YS was responsible for influencing those events as he was as much an observer. If Cho'gall was responsible for controlling Garona, and whatever Old God is responsible for influencing Cho'gall (safe to assume it isn't Yogg) then would that mean that the Old Gods work in unison? It would be nice for Blizzard to shed some more light on the Old Gods (who are they working for if they have masters at all). Are C'thun and Yogg actually dead or were only small portions of their bodies defeated? The fans can only assume, guess, postulate, and argue; because, we simply do not know. Apparently if most titan life originated from Northerend then Yogg is the primary OG responsible for turning them to flesh; which allowed for their eventual corruption by the plague.

I imagine (with my frustration) that this is how Blizzard wants it. If you never pin anything down as absolute then you can use, and reuse lore to whatever means you need. The problem (i/e there must always be a Lich King) is that you end up with no real vision for what the overall story really is going to be, because the user just has to accept that most of it is being made up on the fly.

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Old 03/01/10, 12:15 AM   #7788
Airraid
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
I can't think of any event in the War of the Ancients that could fit a dungeon, although maybe devs will add raid too? I think that destruction of Demon Soul is much more likely: they will make Grim Batol anyway, and players will see familiar faces of Rhonin, Korialstrasz, and Alexstrasza
I'd have my money on this too; the forging/destruction of the Demon Soul is just as important to the Cataclysm storyline as, say, the culling of Strathholme is to current events.

Hunter now retired to pugs, solo farming and Yogg 0. Long live the shaman!

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Old 03/01/10, 2:12 AM   #7789
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Charmin View Post
I didn't necessarily take this as YS was responsible for influencing those events as he was as much an observer. If Cho'gall was responsible for controlling Garona, and whatever Old God is responsible for influencing Cho'gall (safe to assume it isn't Yogg) then would that mean that the Old Gods work in unison? It would be nice for Blizzard to shed some more light on the Old Gods (who are they working for if they have masters at all). Are C'thun and Yogg actually dead or were only small portions of their bodies defeated? The fans can only assume, guess, postulate, and argue; because, we simply do not know. Apparently if most titan life originated from Northerend then Yogg is the primary OG responsible for turning them to flesh; which allowed for their eventual corruption by the plague.

I imagine (with my frustration) that this is how Blizzard wants it. If you never pin anything down as absolute then you can use, and reuse lore to whatever means you need. The problem (i/e there must always be a Lich King) is that you end up with no real vision for what the overall story really is going to be, because the user just has to accept that most of it is being made up on the fly.
I'd say it's a safe assumption that the Old gods work in unison. When Deathwing was being corrupted he claimed to hear multiple voices. When Me'dan(Garona's son) is thrown on C'Thun's corpse I assumed he heard similar voices(He said old ones, not old one many times post C'Thun corpse), not just those of 1 old god.

Ulduar victims of Saronite is an exception I believe, they heard only Yogg-Saron, perhaps his close presence being the reason, that he assume more direct control. C'Thun whispers to you, the player while you are in close proximity to him as well.

Think of it this way, the Old Gods are beings that are imprisoned beneath Azeroth in various places, we know for a fact that it was a lie that the Titans destroyed them all at this point, because it would have dire consequences on the planet. The one they did destroy in the Grove of the Ancients(Darkshore) might have been their first attempt to kill the Old Ones, but it didn't turn out to be a good thing for whatever reason. Now all of the Old Gods are imprisoned around the world(fact). The old gods can reach out in unison to draw beings to their power, because it benefits them to have as many followers as possible regardless of the direct loyalty(See Twilight Cult). The closer proximity you are to any particular Old God, the more direct assertion of control that particular god has over you(See Loken/Ulduar Keepers, Twin Emperors/Southern Nerubians).

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 03/01/10, 6:53 AM   #7790
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
Agreed on the Old Gods working together and with a mutual goal in mind. The way I see it, their "Hive Mind" looks are more than just coincidence.

As to Yoggi's influence over the Lich King..."it's a crap"! His speech sounds to me more like frustration over the fact that he still doesn't have the power to do more than peeking into, well, pretty much wherever he wants. He's probably hoping the Scourge's (over?)use of his blood somehow corrupts them, but we haven't seen any true effect or fact that shows the God of Screaming having any real influence over the Lich King.

It doesn't in any way diminish his storyline, a frustrated villain is still interesting. My only issue is that Blizzard wasn't more open about it and instead went for the "You can't see it, but he's behind everything happening everywhere...A-ha!" speech. Saron was likely behind Neltharion's corruption - along with his brethren. He was probably involved in Garrona's assassination of King Wrynn - although C'thun seems to take on the lead role in that event. But in both of those cases, we see actual proof of said influence. In the whole Lich King storyline - and in Yogg's vision of his room - there's nothing. Just animosity between the two, one that translates, for example, into a faceless one being imprisoned in a mine. How's that for having the upper hand, Old God?

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Old 03/01/10, 9:48 AM   #7791
DeLos
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Medivh
I always took the Arthas/Yogg interaction as more of a betrayal of Yogg by Ner'zhul. Given the close proximity of Twilight and Scourge forces in Old Kingdom, there had to be a peace or truce of some kind for at least a time. Then the imprisoned one in the mine could have been an ambassador from Yogg to The Lich King. Trying to use some great power to gain power himself and then betray said power fits Ner'zhul's personality and history. I just always took it as Ner'zhul using Yogg to get out from under legion control.

I think of the events as follows:

Legion sends Ner'zhul as The Lich King to Northrend
Ner'zhul encounters Yoggs representative.
Says: "Hey, help me corrupt some people to make my Cult of the Damned and then twist this paladin to be my champion and I will help you fully escape your prison."
Ner'zhul gets Arthas body, thinks he is powerful enough and turns on Yogg, chaining he representative in the mine.
Yogg gets annoyed. Tries to recover Arthas' heart in the hope of controlling him.
etc, etc.

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Old 03/01/10, 10:21 AM   #7792
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Itzena View Post
Plus, you know, he's a hunter:
"Nathanos, I thought that the Alliance killed you!"
"So did they, dimwit. The thought that a ranger-general would be able to take on the aspect of a possum did not seem to cross their feeble little minds"
Reading that quote in-game would be worth that month's subscription fee all by itself.

On CoT:
Dragonsoul tie-in to Neltharion would be good. As would anything related to Azshara (to build her up for next/future x-pac).

On Old Gods:
It could be an issue of scale/perspective, such as the Orz from Star Control II. What we see as multiple Old Gods are all the same entity, possibly even with multiple brains focused on separate, yet interconnected tasks (example: like the autonomic nervous system controls bodily functions outside of conscious thought). As we've jokingly referenced before, we've killed a big eyeball and a big mouth. Neither seems a whole entity.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 03/01/10, 10:34 AM   #7793
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
I wasn't that convinced by your version at first, DeLos, but your arrangement of events actually makes a lot of sense. For example, it still explains how Yogg's speech towards Arthas reeks of grudge and some jealousy.

I was thinking, though, that the Twilight presence at the lower tier of the Old Kingdom was more likely to have been won through a bloody battle.

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Old 03/01/10, 10:35 AM   #7794
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
I kind of doubt it, the Old Gods don't exactly make bargains. They're the kind of manipulators that would fix things so that even if they didn't win the lottery, the entire pot would eventually end up in their hands anyway.

C'thun wasn't nearly as talkative as Yogg, but we know that his defeat didn't really hinder him too much. The defeat of the Qiraji was likely a pittance compared to no longer being sealed behind the Scarab Wall, especially since most everyone thinks he's dead now.

Yogg-Saron's lines and demeanor while he talked suggested that he had a hand in all of his brain room visions, and that his very defeat was pretty much exactly as planned.

"Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh."

Like I said before, think of them as beings playing a game. The defeat of their avatar isn't exactly the end. Their bodies are just as much a tool as any of their minions, and they have knowledge and wisdom that comes with eons of existence.

"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

"It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!"

If the Legion aren't a threat, why would Arthas be one? If there was one thing that Ner'zhul was afraid of, it was the Legion.

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Old 03/01/10, 10:44 AM   #7795
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
On Old Gods:
It could be an issue of scale/perspective, such as the Orz from Star Control II. What we see as multiple Old Gods are all the same entity, possibly even with multiple brains focused on separate, yet interconnected tasks (example: like the autonomic nervous system controls bodily functions outside of conscious thought). As we've jokingly referenced before, we've killed a big eyeball and a big mouth. Neither seems a whole entity.
I like that idea a lot but then the questions become, does this single entity have the ability to grow a new "eye" or "brain" which it can then poke back into Azeroth? If the Titans imprisoned these "fingers" of the entity that had poked through does that mean the entity is located in Azeroth or, even more disturbing, is part of Azeroth? What's preventing that entity from coming wholly into Azeroth or does it even want/need to?

Also, Star Control II is awesome. Edit: Holy crap, that game is nearing 20 years old now.

Last edited by Tinwhisker : 03/01/10 at 12:13 PM. Reason: timeline


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Old 03/01/10, 11:18 AM   #7796
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
I wasn't that convinced by your version at first, DeLos, but your arrangement of events actually makes a lot of sense. For example, it still explains how Yogg's speech towards Arthas reeks of grudge and some jealousy.

I was thinking, though, that the Twilight presence at the lower tier of the Old Kingdom was more likely to have been won through a bloody battle.
Taldaram works for Arthas - he's resurrected in ICC. He's a gatekeeper to the section where the Twilight Cultists reside. The top section is covered by Undead Nerubians and Taldaram. Below that is the Herald and the Twilight Cultists.

Taldaram could as easily be guarding/blocking things below coming up as he tries to block us descending. Herald coming from deeper below ground makes perfect sense (even assuming the retcon that Yogg just extends tendrils that far). As to how the Cultists got down there, who knows? Unless they came in, then Arthas sent folks after them to seal it up.

The initial design looks far more like Undead and Twilight were working Hand-in-Glove. Yogg "feuding" with Arthas and not being in AN makes the dungeon look far more fractured.


Tinwhisker:
Old-fashioned (non-ASPCA approved) Racoon trap. Shiny object with nails pointing towards it. The racoon will reach in and grab the shiny (they have quite a bit of dexterity). Fist is wider than open fingers. It will try to withdraw, but the nails prevent it. It will either impale its hand on the nails trying vigorously, and thus be unable to leave the trap, or it will not hurt itself, but still won't release the shiny and stays stuck at the trap. (Probably the only thing I remember from being forced to read Where the Red Fern Grows)

Old Gods "came through" to Azeroth - however they did. Whether entirely, or just the equivalent of a hand. The Titans trapped it there. Until things shake loose it/they would be stuck - can't push more in, can't pull any out.

Which leads to the possibility that "killing" Old Gods frees them from the trap. Eventually it/they are all withdrawn, then can push through into a new place (presumably on Azeroth) full force. Which could be more than ever previously seen.

And, yes, it is awesome. Star Control II is a high bar that many games don't reach.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 03/01/10, 11:28 AM   #7797
Gumibear
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Warlock
 
Turalyon
I think Bolvar was the more the subject of Yogg's ICC vision than Arthas was. Yogg could easily play on people's motivations against the Lich King to bend them to his way of thinking while allowing them to feel like good guys against what they perceive as the most dangerous evil opposing them. Yogg could have bolstered Bolvar's resolve against the Lich King's attempts to break him as a means to get into his head, and now Yogg has a dormant minion wearing the Lich King's helm.

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Old 03/01/10, 5:06 PM   #7798
Dancing Wu Li Master
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
Taldaram works for Arthas - he's resurrected in ICC. He's a gatekeeper to the section where the Twilight Cultists reside. The top section is covered by Undead Nerubians and Taldaram. Below that is the Herald and the Twilight Cultists.

Taldaram could as easily be guarding/blocking things below coming up as he tries to block us descending. Herald coming from deeper below ground makes perfect sense (even assuming the retcon that Yogg just extends tendrils that far). As to how the Cultists got down there, who knows? Unless they came in, then Arthas sent folks after them to seal it up.
The dungeons aren't really 100% accurate versions of the "real" locations (they're far too small and linear for that), and even if they were, there's clearly another way in to the Twilight area: it's the one the players use to exit the dungeon.

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Old 03/02/10, 5:39 AM   #7799
Bierzkrieg
King Hippo
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
My "Blizzard should just write a two or three-page story detailing Arthas' dealings with Yogg-Saron before this is all deemed a failore" sense is tingling.

It's not like it was meant to be left open to speculation. The storyline is coming to an end, for both those characters, so unless they're supposed to do any more business, leaving a dead subject up for guessing won't be deemed "great storytelling" by Blizz.

Edit: I can't see Bolvar being under Saron's control. It's not implausible, and it can be made a great shock moment, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit. Plus - I know it's not a reason per se - you can hear Alliance and Bolvar fans roaring at the mere suggestion. Plus, having everyone fall to either one supervillain or another gets repetitive pretty fast. Bolvar is unique in the sense that he was doomed by the good guys/dragons.

Last edited by Bierzkrieg : 03/02/10 at 5:49 AM.

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Old 03/02/10, 8:37 AM   #7800
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg View Post
Edit: I can't see Bolvar being under Saron's control. It's not implausible, and it can be made a great shock moment, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit. Plus - I know it's not a reason per se - you can hear Alliance and Bolvar fans roaring at the mere suggestion. Plus, having everyone fall to either one supervillain or another gets repetitive pretty fast. Bolvar is unique in the sense that he was doomed by the good guys/dragons.
Not to mention the "Huh?" factor. We killed Yogg-Saron. We killed Arthas. Bolvar took over. Bolvar is MCed by Yogg? Wait, what?

Yes, it can happen if Old Gods don't die, etc. But at a rough glance it looks like a lore equivalent of order of operations failure. And to the casual/average player not concerned with lore, it'd just be a big mess.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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