World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 521

Bierzkrieg · 03/02/10, 10:10 AM

Well, not wanting to play the "devil's advocate", said mind control could lie "dormant" until the Old Gods' return come Cataclysm.

This is pure speculation, but if we indeed see them as somewhat sharing a common mind, despite different "personalities", then it wouldn't be that far fetched to assume that any of the Old Gods could "re-activate" a mind control another Old God was responsible for.

Still, I agree, Exemplar, "Huh?" would be the general reaction.

Kaejin · 03/02/10, 11:03 AM

There have been far stranger things left unexplained in the game.

Obsidian Sanctum was a complete mystery to pretty much anyone who didn't read the correct novel.

Sara is still a complete mystery and completely unexplained. All we have in conjecture that she had something to do with the nixed AN raid.

Yogg being in Ulduar in general makes little sense to anyone who payed attention to quest lore in Northrend. It only makes sense if you didn't pay attention.

I don't think Yogg manipulating Bolvar from beyond the grave is strange at all, considering the nature of the Old Gods, the mental torment that Bolvar had to endure, and the fact that it wouldn't even be close to the strangest thing to happen in canon. It's what I expect to happen because of the way the Old Gods operate. They're manipulative schemers on an unprecedented level inspired by Lovecraft's works. How can Bolvar as the new Lich King not be Yogg's ultimate target?

You can't assume that Blizzard wouldn't do it to make things easier to understand for anyone who doesn't follow the lore. That's rarely ever the case. They don't even make it easy to us who do follow the lore.

Lightbender · 03/02/10, 11:14 AM

I kind of doubt it, the Old Gods don't exactly make bargains. They're the kind of manipulators that would fix things so that even if they didn't win the lottery, the entire pot would eventually end up in their hands anyway.

C'thun wasn't nearly as talkative as Yogg, but we know that his defeat didn't really hinder him too much. The defeat of the Qiraji was likely a pittance compared to no longer being sealed behind the Scarab Wall, especially since most everyone thinks he's dead now.

Yogg-Saron's lines and demeanor while he talked suggested that he had a hand in all of his brain room visions, and that his very defeat was pretty much exactly as planned.

"Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh."

Like I said before, think of them as beings playing a game. The defeat of their avatar isn't exactly the end. Their bodies are just as much a tool as any of their minions, and they have knowledge and wisdom that comes with eons of existence.

"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

"It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!"

If the Legion aren't a threat, why would Arthas be one? If there was one thing that Ner'zhul was afraid of, it was the Legion.

One small problem: you assume that each of them is incapable of lying or is telling the truth in each of these statements. They could easily be bluster or a lie to confuse or perhaps weaken the resolve of their enemies, or for any number of reasons.

Tizzlewump · 03/02/10, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by kirvin

How did Bolvar get up there anyways? I mean theres a whole questline where the main theme is "Blovar died go kill people".

I want to apologize to the lorecraft junkies who've seen this linked before, but this is as good an occasion as any to remind readers of Speaking Draconic: need some Scepter holder help ITT where a very few players translate the Draconic conversation at the Wrathgate. There is a lot of conjecture that predates even Ulduar and it's not exactly the most accessible bit of storyline but it's relevant if you want to pick apart the story of Bolvar. In short, the Reds make it clear they know something we don't about the "young paladin," although at the time it wasn't even clear that this meant Bolvar and not Arthas.

Alexstrasza: "They must not discover the fate of the young paladin. Not yet."

Okay, here I go:

The Reds see the Wrathgate, watch Saurfang get taken by the Lich King, and intervene before he can steal Bolvar too. They can't (or won't!) stop it from going down but they can use Red Dragon Life Magic (tm) to buff Bolvar before he goes off to fight the Lich King and/or an Old God. The Reds have a very short chat about it after Wrathgate but decide with about 3 lines of text that (1) the players don't reazlie what just happened and (2) they don't want to tell us. With the benefit of hindsight we can suppose that they meant Bolvar to go resist the Lich King's dominion while we go kneecap Yogg-Saron to cover Bolvar's flank (which the Alliance wouldn't dream of if we know our boy was imprisoned in ICC). It all comes together perfectly when we finally slay Arthas and have a placeholder lich king, freshly empowered by the Red Dragonflight. The Reds have worked hard to defend life on Azeroth from the Scourge, and this is the vindication of their strat.

I also hadn't realized that Bolvar being horribly burnt was supposed to represent defying the Lich King. Maybe that's clearer in the raid encounter. I am embarrassed by that because, well, it's Icecrown. Being on fire for 12 months might not seem like such a bad deal.

Bierzkrieg · 03/02/10, 11:17 AM

I didn't exactly mean they'd refrain from doing it because of it being complex. Like I said, it's actually a good idea, even if everyone and their aunt has been corrupted.

The thing is - and maybe I'm being biased here - it seems too "Tzeenchian" for a Blizzard plot. Is it just me, or are things usually more linear, if not less interesting, necessarily?

Montegomery · 03/02/10, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Tizzlewump

The Reds see the Wrathgate, watch Saurfang get taken by the Lich King, and intervene before he can steal Bolvar too. They can't (or won't!) stop it from going down but they can use Red Dragon Life Magic (tm) to buff Bolvar before he goes off to fight the Lich King and/or an Old God. The Reds have a very short chat about it after Wrathgate but decide with about 3 lines of text that (1) the players don't reazlie what just happened and (2) they don't want to tell us. With the benefit of hindsight we can suppose that they meant Bolvar to go resist the Lich King's dominion while we go kneecap Yogg-Saron to cover Bolvar's flank (which the Alliance wouldn't dream of if we know our boy was imprisoned in ICC). It all comes together perfectly when we finally slay Arthas and have a placeholder lich king, freshly empowered by the Red Dragonflight. The Reds have worked hard to defend life on Azeroth from the Scourge, and this is the vindication of their strat.

I'm confused as to why you think the red dragons would intentionally send Bolvar off to be tortured, buff or no buff. That doesn't make much sense, your whole explanation is far too complicated, and doesn't line up with the cinematic.

As Bolvar is dying red dragons, not including Alexstraza, nuke the entire area with fire. They then leave, and presumably Alexstraza and Korialstraz show up afterwards. Presumably also, the Lich King takes Saurfang's body before those two arrive. There essentially isn't an opportunity for the red dragons to intentionally buff Bolvar before the Lich King has the opportunity to take him. It's far more likely, especially considering the Bridenbrad questline, that Bolvar's immolation is the result of the plague being cleansed from him through the previously mentioned nuking.

Relevant quote:

Originally Posted by Alexstraza

You must understand, young <race>, that cleansing the body in favor of life anew is something well within my grasp... removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body, however, is beyond the scope of the powers that I control.

If this Bridenbrad is the beacon of light that you profess him to be, perhaps he will endure such a cleansing and thrive, but I cannot state with confidence that this is the salvation that you seek. Take it and go with all of my blessings.

Tizzlewump · 03/02/10, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I'm confused as to why you think the red dragons would intentionally send Bolvar off to be tortured, buff or no buff. That doesn't make much sense, your whole explanation is far too complicated, and doesn't line up with the cinematic.

I approve of your disdain for overcomplicated explanations. That came off as too conspiratorial. I don't mean they sent him, I mean they tossed a blessing on him as he was on his way out. Which we know they did -- they incinerated the Wrathgate to prevent bodies from being Scourged.

Your Bridenbrad quote seems like a pretty good description actually. We couldn't save Bolvar from Arthas the way Varian and Muradin would have hoped, as in "the salvation you seek." But to "endure a cleansing and thrive", specifically this "cleansing the body in favor of life anew" seems a fair description of the passage of Bolvar the Paladin to Bolvar the Lich King. In the cinematic he even says, "The dragon's fire sealed my fate," not the Apothecary's plague, the Lich King's armies, or Frostmourne.

The dragons knew something they weren't telling us, that's why they spoke it in Draconic. The dragons have a mini-instance coming soon and a whole expansion coming not long after. Alex is close to Tirion and certainly has plans for him. Tirion was always the obvious choice for Lich King II (if you were to guess based on HoR instead of data mined images). These do not add up to a dragonfire-infused paladin being in the right place at the right time in the right state of mind by pure accident.

Leviathon · 03/02/10, 11:36 PM

Helion finally had his texture fully put in during today's patch.

Also a strange Celestial Horse which I have no idea where it could be from.

Few more things added into today's PTR build including the music for the Gnomeregan Event. A new Tigon texture was added also which I'd imagine will be used for the Echo Isles.

Vocieovers for the event (and Ruby Sanctum) have also been added.

NPC's are:

Baltharus (Ruby Sanctum)
Bwonsamdi (Labeled as Zul'Farrak)
'Computer'
Hellion (Ruby Sanctum)
Mekkatorque
Saviana (Ruby Sanctum)
Thermaplugg
Vanira
Vol'jin
Xerestrasza (Ruby Sanctum)
Zalazane
Zarithrian (Ruby Sanctum)
Zen'tabra

It seems the purpose of the attack on the Ruby Sanctum was to collect Red Dragon eggs.

Airraid · 03/03/10, 2:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gumibear

I think Bolvar was the more the subject of Yogg's ICC vision than Arthas was. Yogg could easily play on people's motivations against the Lich King to bend them to his way of thinking while allowing them to feel like good guys against what they perceive as the most dangerous evil opposing them. Yogg could have bolstered Bolvar's resolve against the Lich King's attempts to break him as a means to get into his head, and now Yogg has a dormant minion wearing the Lich King's helm.

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

I can't see Bolvar being under Saron's control. It's not implausible, and it can be made a great shock moment, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Not to mention the "Huh?" factor. We killed Yogg-Saron. We killed Arthas. Bolvar took over. Bolvar is MCed by Yogg? Wait, what?

I agree with Bierz & Exemplar; sometimes I wonder if there's too much focus placed on the actual characters and not enough placed on the situation as a whole.

Instead of the "Bolvar was mind controlled" theory, how about thinking along the lines of "Yogg played a part in the sequence of events that would become Wrathgate and ended with the demise of Arthas"? Metzen mentioned in a previous Blizzcast that the WotLK storyline had "three big hooks". For the sake of speculation:

Hook 1: Wrathgate, resulting in the death of Saurfang Jr and Bolvar being immolated by the Red Dragonflight.

Hook 2: Yogg Saron indicates his involvement in both past and current events, including Wrathgate itself due to the fact he is pretty much indirectly claiming credit for Arthas capturing and intending to break the "immolated champion". His quote "He will learn, no king rules forever! Only death is eternal!" suggests more than just a passing interest in what happened.

Hook 3: Arthas is defeated by Tirion (with your help) and dies, just as Yogg told you. The immolated champion, revealed in Icecrown to be Bolvar, becomes the new Lich King.

Looking at it that way, isn't it easier to consider that Yogg set in sequence the events that he knew would end as it did in Icecrown? His motivation is anyone's guess, however. It's also possible to speculate that the Red Dragonflight were aware of how it would end, but they decided that allowing Bolvar to become the new LK was a much safer option than allowing Arthas to continue - hence they let events run its course.

Vaccine · 03/03/10, 3:33 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Vocieovers for the event (and Ruby Sanctum) have also been added.

NPC's are:

Baltharus (Ruby Sanctum)
Hellion (Ruby Sanctum)
Saviana (Ruby Sanctum)
Xerestrasza (Ruby Sanctum)
Zarithrian (Ruby Sanctum)

It seems the purpose of the attack on the Ruby Sanctum was to collect Red Dragon eggs.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Eggs! With the Black Dragonflight, it is always eggs.

Called it! Looking at the list though it seems there are going to be Red Dragons there too,

From the post: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Assault on the Ruby Sanctum

"First you must face the assault of Halion's servants, Saviana Ragefire, Baltharus the Warborn, and General Zarithrian, before squaring off against Halion the Twilight Destroyer, a new and deadly force in this realm."

What makes me think they aren't like Sarth where you don't kill them are his further quotes that Hard mode is activated like ICC. It isn't very intuitive if you kill one of the sub-bosses and suddenely the hard mode switch is greyed out.

Other than Halion and the generals, you also list Xerestrasza which seems likely to be the female red dragon equivalent of Sartharion guarding the eggs. MMO Champ lists here as Sanctum Guardian Xerestrasza.
Sanctum Guardian Xerestrasza - Creatures - Sigrie

Charmin · 03/03/10, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

I kind of doubt it, the Old Gods don't exactly make bargains. They're the kind of manipulators that would fix things so that even if they didn't win the lottery, the entire pot would eventually end up in their hands anyway.

C'thun wasn't nearly as talkative as Yogg, but we know that his defeat didn't really hinder him too much. The defeat of the Qiraji was likely a pittance compared to no longer being sealed behind the Scarab Wall, especially since most everyone thinks he's dead now.

Yogg-Saron's lines and demeanor while he talked suggested that he had a hand in all of his brain room visions, and that his very defeat was pretty much exactly as planned.

"Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh."

Like I said before, think of them as beings playing a game. The defeat of their avatar isn't exactly the end. Their bodies are just as much a tool as any of their minions, and they have knowledge and wisdom that comes with eons of existence.

"They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."

"It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!"

If the Legion aren't a threat, why would Arthas be one? If there was one thing that Ner'zhul was afraid of, it was the Legion.

Hmm, so what is their distilled essence then? I'd like to know that. They go about traveling space turning earthen beings into fleshly beings, and for what purpose? Not to mention that Algalon was fairly impressed with us. Could it be that turning the denziens of Azeroth to flesh may actually thwart the Burning Legions ultimate goals?

Likewise, what is it that is so special about Azeroth? Why would Sargeras spend so much time, energy, and focus on coming here, and if he was so "easily" defeated before in his own avatar form by Aegwyn (sp?) even if he did so willingly what is his purpose? What on Azeroth is so special or is it simply a pride issue that this lone planet stood up to the mighty Burning Legion?

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Not to mention the "Huh?" factor. We killed Yogg-Saron. We killed Arthas. Bolvar took over. Bolvar is MCed by Yogg? Wait, what?

Yes, it can happen if Old Gods don't die, etc. But at a rough glance it looks like a lore equivalent of order of operations failure. And to the casual/average player not concerned with lore, it'd just be a big mess.

Convolution in a storyline can be great if all of the individual threads come together to make a sensible rope to hang a coherent storyline, but if everything is helter skelter just for the sake of poor writing/planning/changing attitudes or simply to be ambiguous for sake of future content in the game/universe then it all just becomes meaningless. I guess what I am saying is the "rules" of a story need to be based in a believable fiction for that universe. If everything comes across as made up on the fly (here's looking at you seasons 2-4 of Lost) then the viewer/reader/player starts to lose their connection, because 'anything goes'. That's one reason why I don't like villains who "can't die". The Old Gods are far more interesting if they have weaknesses. I think it's time to start spilling the beans on the Old Gods. I'd like to see hints as to what they truly are, their purpose, and where they fit in the grand scheme of things :P

While this crosses the line into fan-fiction I always thought it would have been cool had Matthias actually been a trick of Yogg to get us to weaken or destroy the last remnants of Arthas humanity, and likewise, I thought it would have been great if Sara the Vrykul/Valk would have been a trick of Arthas to goad us into releasing and defeating Yogg-Saron.

anyway... I love the Old God Cthulu stuff I just want to see more of it.

***EDIT
Forget what I said about Old Gods and the Legion working in collusion together. Just read the quotes that contradict that. Also edited for clarity.

Charmin · 03/03/10, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Airraid

I agree with Bierz & Exemplar; sometimes I wonder if there's too much focus placed on the actual characters and not enough placed on the situation as a whole.

Instead of the "Bolvar was mind controlled" theory, how about thinking along the lines of "Yogg played a part in the sequence of events that would become Wrathgate and ended with the demise of Arthas"? Metzen mentioned in a previous Blizzcast that the WotLK storyline had "three big hooks". For the sake of speculation:

Hook 1: Wrathgate, resulting in the death of Saurfang Jr and Bolvar being immolated by the Red Dragonflight.

Hook 2: Yogg Saron indicates his involvement in both past and current events, including Wrathgate itself due to the fact he is pretty much indirectly claiming credit for Arthas capturing and intending to break the "immolated champion". His quote "He will learn, no king rules forever! Only death is eternal!" suggests more than just a passing interest in what happened.

Hook 3: Arthas is defeated by Tirion (with your help) and dies, just as Yogg told you. The immolated champion, revealed in Icecrown to be Bolvar, becomes the new Lich King.

Looking at it that way, isn't it easier to consider that Yogg set in sequence the events that he knew would end as it did in Icecrown? His motivation is anyone's guess, however. It's also possible to speculate that the Red Dragonflight were aware of how it would end, but they decided that allowing Bolvar to become the new LK was a much safer option than allowing Arthas to continue - hence they let events run its course.

I really like this explanation of things. So if Deathwing is on the Old God payroll, and if Bolvar/Lich King is sort of the Pip/beneficiary of the Old Gods then what exactly are they planning? Saving a resource for a rainy day? Building an army? Interesting...

Leviathon · 03/03/10, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Other than Halion and the generals, you also list Xerestrasza which seems likely to be the female red dragon equivalent of Sartharion guarding the eggs. MMO Champ lists here as Sanctum Guardian Xerestrasza.
Sanctum Guardian Xerestrasza - Creatures - Sigrie

Yea she is the one who tells you what the Black Dragonflight is attacking for.

Bierzkrieg · 03/03/10, 5:36 AM

Bwonsamdi (Labeled as Zul'Farrak) - Nice "Geistspeak" Bond reference.

Halion has a good model, overall, but does he need to be so pink? Unless the texture is unfinished, he doesn't seem "Twilightish" at all, has no real ethereal feeling to him and looks downright like an attempt to make pink an acceptable color among the supervillain community...Even his horns are pink, christ's sake! I thought we'd be seeing a new Twilight texture when I saw that violent-translucent drake with the red nucleus in the Cataclysm trailer, but there we have it...

On Bolvar, I still have some trouble accepting the theory that he's working for the Old Gods. Like I've said, it's not implausible and it'd make for a nice twist, but it would also be "another corrupted character". One that earned his name through incredible resilience in the face of the worst mind-breaking techniques around. My issue here is with Blizzard's way of storytelling. Usually, you can see something wrong with characters that are meant for downfall (Illidan, Kael'thas), but when they want to build a good guy, they go overboard (in a good way, most of the time). Just think of Thrall, Saurfang, Velen, Fordring.

And yes, I think the Red Flight had at least the notion that something like that might happen to Bolvar when they pulled the flamethrower-it's-super-effective on him. Blizzard's lore has time and again showed that dragons have a grand sense of scale regarding the fate of the world that often has them using mortals. Alexstrasza's views and priorities aren't exactly hampered by little Bolvar there not doing good at dates anymore and losing his Light powers.

Edit:

Well, when you're able to enter the Ruby Sanctum, you'll find yourself in the wake of an assault that's already taken place.

By Zarhym, here: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Assault on the Ruby Sanctum

So...They've got the eggs already and are "cleaning up"? I wonder if Xerestrasza will play an active role in the battle. Is Deathwing trying to carry on Nefarian's experiments with other Flights, or does he just feel like having eggs for breakfast?

Exemplar · 03/03/10, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Bwonsamdi (Labeled as Zul'Farrak) - Nice "Geistspeak" Bond reference.

Actually, I immediately thought Baron Samedi and something involving Day of the Dead. Though why they'd be spending time on DotD this early in the year, I'm not sure.

As for Pink Halion... I'm a paladin. You learn to accept pink. But, no, really, maybe he's from a corrupted Red Egg as part of Neltharion's manipulations. It would make sense why he was able to enter their portal if he had the right genetics.