World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 534

Volrath50 · 03/23/10, 12:32 AM

I just assumed they were treating the Nefarian decapitation as an alternate, non-canonical ending to BWL. With his head showing up in both Stormwind and Orgrimmar, at least one of them has to be apocryphal, so why not just say the decapitation never happened at all? Horde/Alliance/some NPC destroyed BWL, but Nefarian survived, escaping while his Drakonids held up the invaders on his Balcony.

Speaking of that, I think it'll be interesting to see if they do do anything with the non-instanced version of Nef's Balcony. Probably not, as in Northrend, the outdoor parts of UK and Occulus exist in the general world, just devoid of mobs and bosses.

Nathanyel · 03/23/10, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Volrath50

Speaking of that, I think it'll be interesting to see if they do do anything with the non-instanced version of Nef's Balcony. Probably not, as in Northrend, the outdoor parts of UK and Occulus exist in the general world, just devoid of mobs and bosses.

Actually, it has been officially mentioned that the entrances to the new dungeons are there (one 5man and one raid if I remember correctly)

Bierzkrieg · 03/23/10, 4:49 AM

Originally Posted by dustdog

I rather suspect an evil group or organisation would have a larger requirement for loyalty than a good one. None-the-less when Neltharion turned, the rest of his pack followed with him, as far as I can remember I haven't seen any of the blacks that have remotely been "good."

Has it actually been stated that Nefarian survives and it isn't just a case of him being risen into undeath with someone elses head or something?

No details given on Nefarian's return, that I recall.

Dragonflights, for all the superiority and "transcendence" of their members, at times resemble a pride of lions or a herd of elephants, depending on wether they're a patriarchy or a matriarchy, respectively. So, defiant or more independent members may arise but, for the most part, their sense of loyalty is innate and even independent from their personality. Meaning that, once Deathwing shows up, Sinestra quits her yapping.

Zamboozle · 03/23/10, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

No details given on Nefarian's return, that I recall.

Dragonflights, for all the superiority and "transcendence" of their members, at times resemble a pride of lions or a herd of elephants, depending on wether they're a patriarchy or a matriarchy, respectively. So, defiant or more independent members may arise but, for the most part, their sense of loyalty is innate and even independent from their personality. Meaning that, once Deathwing shows up, Sinestra quits her yapping.

Am I wrong to believe she was loyal to begin with...sometime in TBC? I remember a short scene between her and the orcs down in the Netherwing place and her singing 'hail to Neltharion! He rises!'.

I think up til Cata, Blizz has been pretty true to the "if the guy loses his head, it's technically dead" thing. Kael came back - but we didn't take his head - we took one of his shiny floaty things and in the new version, he ends up with 2 green floaty things instead of 3. Onyxia was stated to be there "Just for OOC celebration purposes" right off the bat so she doesn't really count (must..shut up about Varian comics). The only other person I can think of is Rivendare who has the Scourge contract cause (somewhere in the fine print I'm sure along with the superb dental plan, they also have a 'replace a head should you lose one' cause) which sorta makes sense since undead are undead and you don't really need a head to get along.

Therma and Nef would prolly be the first two to really clash with that 'headless means dead' logic...unless I'm missing somebody.

Exemplar · 03/23/10, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Zamboozle

Am I wrong to believe she was loyal to begin with...sometime in TBC? I remember a short scene between her and the orcs down in the Netherwing place and her singing 'hail to Neltharion! He rises!'.

I think up til Cata, Blizz has been pretty true to the "if the guy loses his head, it's technically dead" thing. Kael came back - but we didn't take his head - we took one of his shiny floaty things and in the new version, he ends up with 2 green floaty things instead of 3. Onyxia was stated to be there "Just for OOC celebration purposes" right off the bat so she doesn't really count (must..shut up about Varian comics). The only other person I can think of is Rivendare who has the Scourge contract cause (somewhere in the fine print I'm sure along with the superb dental plan, they also have a 'replace a head should you lose one' cause) which sorta makes sense since undead are undead and you don't really need a head to get along.

Therma and Nef would prolly be the first two to really clash with that 'headless means dead' logic...unless I'm missing somebody.

Sinestra references "The Master" on Netherwing ledge. Implying that all which occurs there is by his (Deathwing's) plan. I believe the books put this partially in doubt (she was following her own agenda?), but I am unsure. Notably this reference from Sinestra in-game was the first confirmation (using that word very loosely) that Deathwing survived.

Therma doesn't clash - they've already written him the same clause as Zalazane - it was a trick (get an axe). Nef not being dead or returning is pure supposition - we know there's a Blackwing Descent, whether Nef will be in it is yet to be discovered. Several of us have merely said if they re-use Nef, it would be nice to keep headless continuity as it can play up Deathwing's madness and lack of care for the Black Dragonflight, including his own flesh and blood. Why Retcon something that can be used for positive purpose as-is? I.e. if it ain't broke, don't fix it, Blizz.

dustdog · 03/23/10, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Zamboozle

I think up til Cata, Blizz has been pretty true to the "if the guy loses his head, it's technically dead" thing. Kael came back - but we didn't take his head - we took one of his shiny floaty things and in the new version, he ends up with 2 green floaty things instead of 3.

We'll probably never see a quest item that involves a raid boss' head again, verdant spheres and family lockets ahoy. I don't think we actually take Thermaplugg's head, WoWhead's loot list for him seems to reflect this aswell. Instead of saying it was merely a facsimilie, they could have pulled a Kael'thas, saying his subsequent exposure to the radiation after moving in gave him super powers instead of turning him into a leper gnome (it doesn't look like he's been afflicted).

Bierzkrieg · 03/23/10, 11:44 AM

I think it's pretty much confirmed that Blizzard is re-using Nefarian for Blackwing Descent. Of course, plans change, but it needn't be a lore flop, so I'm betting on the son reappering alongside the father - even if as a puppet.

Sinestra seems to have gotten angsty towards Neltharion at some point. She acts pretty much alone in Night of the Dragon - as far as other Black Dragons are concerned.

Wowwiki seems to place her disfigurment after Neltharion's complete descent into madness...which was a long time ago.

Sintharia - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

So, either it wasn't the pain caused by her mate that made her rancorous towards him, or she's been feigning so as make her plans seem the same as Deathwing's. Likely the latter. So, she convinced Mor'ghor to hand her the Netherwing eggs and carried out her own agenda, we can presume.

Still, I'd risk saying she wouldn't take that much longer than other black dragons to "kneel" before Deathwing upon his return, should it have happened before. It seems it's really not a choice for them to follow their Aspect, no matter how much he despises them.

Zamboozle · 03/23/10, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by dustdog

We'll probably never see a quest item that involves a raid boss' head again, verdant spheres and family lockets ahoy. I don't think we actually take Thermaplugg's head, WoWhead's loot list for him seems to reflect this aswell. Instead of saying it was merely a facsimilie, they could have pulled a Kael'thas, saying his subsequent exposure to the radiation after moving in gave him super powers instead of turning him into a leper gnome (it doesn't look like he's been afflicted).

It -would- be hilarious if Nef does make a big comeback as a huge zombie dragon with a thick row of stitches around his neck...

Or more speculation, probably a soul of some sort like Taerar. That would also be possible. A shade of shadow somewhere that spits shadowflame 2.0. I would prefer something to not make Vanilla obsolete. All those hours in Blackwing Lair..come on Blizzard =( Tthe term 'Blackwing' doesn't really refer to Nefarion specifically - it could very possibly be another black dragon in there churning things up - it may be be Sinestra as the end boss even.

Fortunately, I still my have Onyxia cloak! So if Nef really makes a comeback, I am prepared! HAH!

SpaceDrake · 03/23/10, 10:31 PM

I'm totally looking forward to Nef returning with an all-metal head - it would make for a nice riff on Daddy's own design, and show that Deathwing is twisted enough to do terrible things to his own family in pursuit of power.

But yeah, so long as there's some decent reference to Nef being brought back via terrible, arcane means, I'm perfectly fine with it.

Vaccine · 03/24/10, 6:41 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Numbering a patch 3.9 when you're on 3.3 implies that there's patches planned out between here and there. The logical conclusion is that Blizzard will send the geography files in smaller chunks across patches 3.4-3.9. Then, when 4.0 launches, they can simply phase everyone into the revamped Azeroth.

I thought it was really just an allusion to "The one before 4.0" rather than "there will be 6 more mini patches".

As for Nef, I'm sick of them bringing villains back. If they do bring him back, I really hope he has an Elementium head similar to Deathwing's armour plating and is just a robot head on a decaying dragon body symbolising, I don't know, that his head has been hanging in Orgrimarr for 4 years! Really, can't they get some originality anymore?

Sure Nef was popular, but why can't they let sleeping dragons lie. Here's an idea, make a new Black Dragon with a new name. Call him something insidious like Sindisbeforion. One of Nef's rivals moved in and carried on his experiments and created the Chromatic Prismatic Nether Twilight Infinite Opalescent dragon flight by getting some from every other genetically modified flight in a room with 10 kegs of vodka and a Barry White CD and coming back in the morning to see the results of his hideous experiment.

Better than bringing Nef back just for the sake of the name. It's getting to the point where the game writing is becoming embarrassing, like one of those fan fics where they try to make the main character (the author obviously) meet as many 'famous' heroes/villains as possible like some mass name dropping convention. It's funny that they gave a nod to it on Blood Princes but I hope that means they've taken it on board and stop bringing back characters from beyond the grave because they were a success in a past.

Emeraude · 03/24/10, 7:01 AM

Since we brought up the subject of other media expanding WoW's lore, I thought it would be worth mentioning that the Alliance/Horde spin off comics that was supposed to happen after Med'an and company beat back Cho'gall has been canceled. Digging around the web doesn't really lead to much outside of an IGN article saying they wanted to do it in Graphic Novel form, but there's nothing out there about impending Warcraft Manga novels that relate to to what we saw at the end of WoW #25, or the following special.

What is coming out later is Warcraft: Mage(Amazon.com: Warcraft: MAGE (9781427814975): Richard A. Knaak, Ryo Kawakami: Books), which is supposed to be about Dalaran, and everyone's favorite mage Rhonin(I know how much you all just love Rhonin!) along with Warcraft: Pandaren(Amazon.com: World of Warcraft: Panderans HC (9781401226992): Books), and Dragons of Outland(Amazon.com: Warcraft: Dragons of Outland Volume 1 (9781427810267): Richard A. Knaak, Jae-Hwan Kim: Books) which we already have known about for a while.

WoWwiki also mentioned Warcraft: Shaman, as well as 2 other novels before Cata for Cata, but again details are rather scarce.

Bierzkrieg · 03/24/10, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by SpaceDrake

I'm totally looking forward to Nef returning with an all-metal head - it would make for a nice riff on Daddy's own design, and show that Deathwing is twisted enough to do terrible things to his own family in pursuit of power.

But yeah, so long as there's some decent reference to Nef being brought back via terrible, arcane means, I'm perfectly fine with it.

Reviving, however, doesn't quite fit into the picture. Deathwing's a perma-burning, metal-clad black behemoth whose nature goes straight from sadistic to tyranical and back in seconds. He's also become well known for his experiments - which have worked, for the most part, even if they haven't been enough. We've seen him use telepathy and induce, well, death, through one of his scales (Day of the Dragon), but these seem rather "occasion powers", even if they make some sense.

This means that reviving Nefarian (whole) through sheer magic would probably be left to the Twilight Hammer. Yes, it's plausible. Yes, the Old Gods can certainly do that. I just think we'd be losing one hell of a character development moment. Just don't have Deathwing revive his son "because he can". One of the best things about Neltharion's description, one that most authors have respected, is that, even if all he does in a story is spew magma and fly, he'll still make most characters crap their pants.

Take a look at his fight with Gruul. Up until Khadgar McPerfect crashes the party in the most ridiculous way imaginable, that's probably the best description of how menacing Deathwing is.

Monocle · 03/24/10, 9:08 AM

One thing we do know about Nef, he did have some knowledge and skill in necromancy. After what happened to Ony, he may have set up something like a back up phylactery so his soul could have some place to escape in case some pesky mortals did manage to get him. Then all he would need is a body to be popped back into, and he'd be set.

He was also the foremost expert on dragon genetics on Azeroth, so have a cloned body or three ready would not be out of the quest. Well cloned, but better, maybe a Chromatic version.

Exemplar · 03/24/10, 10:25 AM

Blizzard could semi-mock themselves again with a decent pastiche. If there is a clone Nef (I still prefer this or the other ideas to a "Wasn't dead" retcon), making it a Chromatic/Twilight/Opalescent/Translucent/Shiny/Reflective/Whatever dragon would be good. Reasoning why it's not at full power and we're able to defeat it? It was decanted "too soon," of course (with appropriate speech that hopefully does not take 50 seconds). Taking several years to fully mature a dragon body makes sense. He could even be more Drake than Dragon, in that he wouldn't be fully grown.

Since I brought it up myself, on the topic of speeches - why can they not reuse the Ragnaros model? He has a lengthy speech on spawn. Every pull thereafter does not require a rehas. Why is it necessary for Kael and Arthas to speechify/RP before combat every single time? Once per soft reset, then engage when you desire. All the benefits of lore/interaction, none of the detriments of player annoyance when learning a boss.

Volrath50 · 03/24/10, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Blizzard could semi-mock themselves again with a decent pastiche. If there is a clone Nef (I still prefer this or the other ideas to a "Wasn't dead" retcon), making it a Chromatic/Twilight/Opalescent/Translucent/Shiny/Reflective/Whatever dragon would be good. Reasoning why it's not at full power and we're able to defeat it? It was decanted "too soon," of course (with appropriate speech that hopefully does not take 50 seconds). Taking several years to fully mature a dragon body makes sense. He could even be more Drake than Dragon, in that he wouldn't be fully grown.

Since I brought it up myself, on the topic of speeches - why can they not reuse the Ragnaros model? He has a lengthy speech on spawn. Every pull thereafter does not require a rehas. Why is it necessary for Kael and Arthas to speechify/RP before combat every single time? Once per soft reset, then engage when you desire. All the benefits of lore/interaction, none of the detriments of player annoyance when learning a boss.

Hehe, Kael, the six phase fight.

Speaking of Ragnaros, I do wonder how many people are going to complain that he's being brought back. Though, there shouldn't be any real problems with him. I remember some quests in classic stating that the Ragnaros in MC wasn't even really Ragnaros, but an avatar of his, while the real Ragnaros hung out in the Elemental Plane. Wasn't that the Kalaran Windblade questline? I hope they have more in game lore like that rather than him being like Sartharion, and just being there.

Speaking of Kalaran Windblade, someone told me that was an old character of Tigole's from EQ that got banned for some reason. Is that true? Either way, it would be neat to see him show up, perhaps as a boss in Black Wing Descent.