panny

Can we stop using the word 'Evolve' when talking about the races of wow? It makes them sound like pokemon.

Re: that chart, didn't the Titans create dragons too? I assumed proto-drakes were less advanced versions.

 

Ukerric

Current "wisdom" from Titan archives is that the Old Gods weren't around on their first visit. The necrotic parasites called Old Gods infested Azeroth between the two visits. So, at that point, Elementals weren't under control by Old Gods.

 

Kirth

Goblins were around prior to the explosion of the WoE, Satyrs were a creation of Sagaras and evidence points that the Naga, while created during the events surrounding the explosion of the WoE, were not a result of it. All of this is confirmed in the War of the Ancients trilogy.

One interesting thing I find is you have Titans and Old Gods. where do all these Demi-Gods fit into things (Ursoc, Elune, Agmaggan, etc...)

 

Mman

What word should be used then? Evolution is a real world phenomena, and it is one way to describe what has happened from the original titan creations and the formation of humans and troggs. Whether or not this evolution is the equivalent to real world mutations is another question. The curse of flesh can just be a euphemism for mutations that occurred naturally, or it could literally be a curse put upon the titan creations by some unknown beings. The formation of the races are a pretty fuzzy thing. The question I keep coming back to, is if the titan's have created hundreds of worlds, how did they fuck up with Azeroth so much?

 

• Leguaran

I've had the opinion that some Demi-gods (let's call them original Demigods, like, say, Malorne) were given charges by Titans to watch over smaller aspects of the world. However, natural breeding and mating between some of these Demigods with either divine entities or one another caused a whole second league of Demigods to come into being (say, Cenarius), who shared some of their parent's powers and also took on their duties.

 

Verne

There is really not much information about the origins of the demigods. I would guess all demigods and primal gods of trolls actually belong to the same group. Primal gods are another interesting aspect of Warcraft lore. Where did they come from and where do they live?

My own guess is that the primal gods are another extraterrestial race, much like the Titans and the Naaru, who arrived to Azeroth after the elementals and Old Gods were banished. The trolls begin to worship them and later other species too, giving them other names. Some of these primal gods prefer to stay hidden, like Elune, while some have direct contact with the mortals, even creating new species to their own image (Agamaggan). All these demigods and primal gods seem to have some animal side to them which would suggest they belong to the same group.

Their powers vary greatly. Their powers could even be directly connected to the amount of worship they gain. Without any bigger worshipping a primal god would be as powerful as the most powerful mortals (like our faction leaders, and us at level 90 or so). The most powerful primal gods would be just below Old Gods and Titans.

Another version of origins of demigods I find plausible is that they are much like the dragon aspects, blessed by the Titans who also gave them their powers and a duty to watch over the species of Azeroth. You could call them "lesser" aspects, I guess.

After the Titans' departure some of them might have got bored and started doing their own experiments with the Titans' machines that were left behind and thus Azeroth gained more species, like the Quilboars and Furbolg.

edit: as to why Azeroth got so screwed up... It wasn't the Titans' fault. It was the Old Gods. Everything was going well until the Old Gods came and started doing their own "experiments". When Titans came back and tried to fix what the Old Gods had done they found out they actually can not do anything so they changed the plan and gave some native species powers so they could watch over the evolution and the curse while the Titans were away.

 

zoombini

Then that leads to the question as to where the Old Gods come from - are they a 3rd all-powerful spacefaring faction? Was Azeroth the first time the Titans encountered them? Have they encountered them since on any other worlds?

 

Liebestod

iirc it doesn't actually say that, just that the Old Gods weren't detected at first. Whether this means they weren't around is debatable.

 

Starfire

Err who is the 2nd? The Naaru aren't all-powerful. Except for A'dal the individual Naaru seem relatively weak...

And it does appear in Shadowmoon Valley the Arrakoa are summoning what looks like an Old God; of course it is also possible they are summoning an Old God from Azeroth and not from some other planet/region.

 

Duodecimal

The Burning Legion is the other powerful spacegoing faction (after the Titans).

 

Verne

I really doubt the Old Gods are a space-faring faction. If they were it would make no sense for them to pick up one single planet to occupy, wage war against each other on and defend the rights for it to death with the Titans.

My guess is when the Titans first time arrived in Azeroth all they saw was the elementals fighting each other (actually the Old Gods fighting each other) but did not see the background forces influencing the elementals. So the proceeded to banish the elementals and started molding Azeroth to their liking. The Old Gods are propably smart enough to know when they are outnumbered so they waited until the Titans left Azeroth.

The Old Gods started fiddling with what the Titans had left behind on their first visit and when they could not bend the creations of the Titans under their will they created the Curse of Flesh. The Titans returned and found out about the Curse of Flesh and that's how I guess they found out about the Old Gods and the war for Azeroth began, with Titans emerging victorious and the Old Gods banished under the surface of Azeroth.

The Titans aren't able to find a working cure to the Curse of Flesh so they appoint aspects/demigods to watch over the evolution of races on Azeroth.

edit: So if the Burning Legion counts as a space-faring faction, then so does Naaru. Neither of these factions are as powerful as the Titans however. The Naaru (individually speaking) seem to be way more powerful than the the Legion but the Naaru are few compared to the millions of the Legion.

The Ethereals also seem to be a space-faring race along the Draenei (with the help of the Naaru). We also have to take in account that does dimensional warping count as space-faring?

 

Liebestod

They could easily turn the Old Gods into a race of eldritch space fleas. I think they're moving in that direction myself, but the evidence is far from solid at this point. In which case the conclusion would be that the Old Gods on Azeroth are just a few members of a race or organization or whatever that's spread across the cosmos. They could use an explanation of why they're on Azeroth in either case, and "they were just always there" doesn't seem particularly satisfying. I think that any development of the origins of the Old Gods is going to lead in the direction of their either being extraterrestrial or possibly related to some greater evil.

 

Melthu

Aren't goblins in their natural state pretty unintelligent? I thought most of their intelligence came from exposure to kaja'mite. If the kaja'mite gave them their intelligence then pretty much the only thing they have in common with gnomes is height. Of course, it's also possible that goblins are a mistaken mutation from the mechagnomes and kaja'mite fixed that mistake, bringing them closer to their gnome cousins.

 

andastra

The Old Gods storyline, to me, seem to be moving toward them being like Lavos in Chrono Trigger. There are differences, sure, but the concept seems to be a species of parasite that moves from world to world.

After the Sargeras-Eredar retcon, I wonder if these will now be the ones that corrupted Sargeras, instead of the Eredar and Nathrezim.

 

Kirth

It was the last boss of Arcatraz, Harbinger Something, who gives us a hint that the old gods are something more then just from Azeroth. Believe this was mentioned in this thread previously. I guess the logical conclusion to that line is that the Aquir are not of Azeroth as well.

 

Douglas

Yah, this is my own current belief -- I think the old gods predate Azeroth, and it was built "on top of" them so to speak, and it just took a while for them to figure out how to manifest form and function in the reshaped reality. To use a metaphor, they were worms in soil, the creation of Azeroth consisted of paving over the ground they were in, and while they were always there, it took them a while to create fissures in the asphalt and wriggle their way through to where the new activity was going on.

 

Liebestod

I think what we'll see in coming expansions is, if not the wholesale rejection of the old Warcraft creation story, then a real expansion of it.

The Titans will go from the main forces of creation in the universe, and presumably the most powerful faction, to just another group of advanced, reclusive, and curious experimenters. Kinda like the Xel'Naga of Starcraft. I think the shift towards giving the Titans an increasingly cyberpunkish theme (while retaining their Greek architecture) indicates their being downgraded from deities to just aliens with Sufficiently Advanced Technology.

The Burning Legion will go from the main forces of destruction in the universe, to presumably a major organized force of destruction lead by a corrupted Titan. imo, the routing of the Burning Legion in TBC, especially of Kil'Jaeden, signals a major downgrade in the status of the Legion, who were previously the major villains of the Warcraft universe. At best, they've lost their status as the main evil force and are just one of several evil forces. Sargeras is the only thing that can redeem them. I documented how the Legion's portrayal has changed from the classic denizens of the Abrahamic Hell to a Coalition of Evil and Corrupt Races.

The Old Gods will be developed as eldritch abominations of some sort. Lavos is probably the right idea, but they might be more organized and intelligent than that. Maybe like a cross between the Lovecraftian elder gods and the Zerg. With the downgrading of the Legion, there's a lot of potential for the Old Gods or some associated force to become the main enemies in the WoW universe.

The only force that's difficult to square in is the Naaru. I guess it's easy to say that they're somewhat like the Titans, except less-powerful and more actively-involved in the welfare of the universe. What I find odd is that the active rivalry between the Titans and Legion has been replaced by the rivalry between the Legion and the Naaru. I'd take this as an indication that either Blizzard didn't want to introduce the Titans yet in WoW, or that relegating the Titans to "observer" status in universal affairs means that a new force of Light had to be created. I don't think the Titans can retain their place as the main defenders of the universe unless they're tied to the Naaru somehow.

 

Esajin

To be honest I don't think the origin of Old Gods should take a part as yet-another-alien-species. I'm so much more comfortable with the explanation of them being just life-like manifestations of universal concepts (fear, pain, terror, despair...) that just happen to be semi-sentient at times and foolish enough to believe they are actual gods because some races worship them as such.

 

songster

re: Old Gods - you lot really do need to read up on your HP Lovecraft. You know, the mythos that the Old Gods are a direct reference to.

 

Duilliath

Horde players might find the following questline interesting with regards to the Curse of the Flesh (I expect most of the Alliance saw it already):

The Mechagnomes - Quest - World of Warcraft - scroll down a bit for the comments which contain the full story.
&
Re-Cursive - Quest - World of Warcraft

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

Tyrian

The return of the Titans would surely be one of the grandest events in recent Azeroth history, thus blizzard would have to set up a suitable scenario to give it justice.

I've often wondered how best to do this. Having the titans pop back into 'old content' just wouldn't work. If we have a Maelstrom/Emerald Dream expansion, it wouldnt really seem grand to have everyone trek back to Northrend and revisit old content. What would the titans be doing there, pathing up and down Dragonblight/Storm Peaks?

The best way to make use of the titans-returning theme I think is a WoW 2 scenario. They would come back to current Azeroth, purge it (perhaps in the last expansion/content cycle to WoW) and WoW2 would begin with the 'new Azeroth'. Add in a civil war, similar in theme to the Angiris Council + Sanctuary disagreements.

What other ways could it be done? Sending a Titan harbinger to help us fight Yogg-Saron is also a good idea, but falls far short of the Pantheon-revisitation concept. As much as i'd like to see it, it's hard to imagine a way to deliver it into the game, with new content, that would do it justice.

Perhaps there could be something like: A new, previously thought destroyed portal city in the Maelstrom expansion is discovered (fortifed, no entry available to us), which the Titans have already returned to in secret. Similar to Dalaran in that they are working en masse in private, and only sending out agents and harbingers in the meantime. It would be a nice twist, "The titans have already returned, we just didn't know they were here!" because many are expecting big spaceships to land instead, Spacegoat style.

 

andastra

The problem I have with a WoW 2 storyline like that is that Blizzard is supposedly doing another MMO and I don't think they'd be releasing 2 MMOs close together. That implies that any WoW 2 would be a long time coming, maybe a decade. They will almost certainly release Warcraft 4 sometime in the middle as I don't think they'll let the RTS franchise be dormant that long.

That brings us to another point. For most WoW players, most of the most compelling villains, like Illidan and Arthas, were introduced in the RTS. Even though I think, with their subscription numbers, most WoW players have never played the RTS games, there was enough hype from the RTS and from people who played them. WoW, to most people, hasn't really managed to introduce any compelling villain on its own that compares with the stature of the RTS villains. Maybe to lore geeks like us, but it's not looking that way to the general public. I think they would introduce a Warcraft 4 between WoW and any possible WoW 2 and introduce a lot of new characters to it.

Or they could just phase it over the old world or destroy the old world entirely. As they release new expansions, most people just want to rush old content anyway. The older it is, the more most people, even new players, want to get it over with. I really think it's possible to do that and just start newly created characters at 55+ in a new xpac, dk-style. Of course, they would have to redo tradeskills and all sorts of stuff.

 

Hildegard

I think a return of the Titans could also bring a complete make-over of the old content - like flyable Azeroth and heroic versions of instances like Uldaman or Maraudon. WoW has most likely two or maximum three expansion to go until the story will get old. There is an end to every story and I hope they don't do too much and have us fly around in Space. The titans reshaping some of Azeroth could really make the areas interesting again and it could give some real well done final to the whole story.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Kazanir

This is about the greatest expansion idea and subsequent excuse for Heroic BRD that I've ever heard.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

Grahamiam

I hope when they flesh out the Old God storyline more they also incorporate some explanation into the elementals. Elementals are the original inhabitants of Azeroth and are minions of the Old Gods ... OK to me this raises the questions:

1) Why do the elementals give shamans powers? Are elementals completely separate from elemental powers that stem from "nature"?
2) Why are there elementals on Draenor but no old gods? Does this mean that the old gods enslaved the elementals on Azeroth at some point? If so, why aren't some of them defecting after being imprisoned?
2a) Maybe they are. Hydraxian Waterlords seemed benevolent, and maybe there are good ones that help the shamans as well and there are just very few?
2b) If an expansion goes into the Elemental planes (hopefully we can shakerpage field2 for AAs there as well) it's almost guaranteed there'll be a "good" faction of elementals.
3) Why do they battle each other if they're all in command of the Old Gods?

Maybe this is covered somewhere that I haven't seen.