World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 565

Nathanyel · 05/12/10, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by KrinKer

Is it a faceless one, chained like the gronn, in the background?

Uhm, the back "wall" likely is a mirror or another reflective surface.

Bierzkrieg · 05/12/10, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

Uhm, the back "wall" likely is a mirror or another reflective surface.

I thought that too, but it doesn't make much sense. Most likely, the path just circles.

Gronn it is. Again, tail and loincloth, as well the spikes on the forearms.

Monocle · 05/12/10, 11:59 AM

If Magatha did get exiled, maybe she moved to one of the Razor Fen instances, and kicked out the Quillboars as well? Razorfen Downs will been needing some tweaking anyway because of Scourge being in decline. I was thinking it would have become Amnennar's private fiefdom, but this would be another option too. Just stick it full with Grimtotem and some Putress sympathizer Foresaken who are now on the run as well.

Blizzard did say some of the old 5 mans would get some new love too, this would be a way to do so.

Duilliath · 05/12/10, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

It's another gronn, I think, KrinKer. Notice the small tail and the loincloth. There may not be any experiments on these guys - although I'd love for "Beauty" to be a dragonblood-injected-gronn. Deathwing may have had them brought to Azeroth as mere slaves and meatshields. They had it coming, to be honest.

Would be amusing if they went back on the old BEM antics. What with Gruul the Dragonslayer and the four Black Dragons you have to kill for the Skyguard (that actually give a Deathwing's Cloak of whatchamacallit...) Seems like a reasonable connection.

Bierzkrieg · 05/12/10, 1:24 PM

Either to experiment on them or just for forced enlisting, I'm sure vengeance brought the gronn to Deathwing's memory- if he ever forgot them at all. BEM was a massive Black Dragon "hangyard" (I actually think Blizzard went a little over-the-top with the number of dragons impaled, something which is aggravated by their use of the Nefarian model, but I guess it's a testament to Grull's prowess in dragonslaying).

Also, in Beyond the Dark Portal, the gronn and ogres helped Turalyon and the good guys perform infanticide on a whole lot of black dragon whelps - or eggs, to be precise. Deathwing showed up when they were almost done. Saying he was pissed off deserves an Achievement for understatement of the month.

Tinwhisker · 05/12/10, 2:07 PM

I think by this point, Deathwing has gone so far off the deep end that there's no real distinction between his grudge against certain groups and his grudge against everyone.

Speaking of Deathwing being totally unstable, I really hope they show that in Cataclysm. Deathwing needs to be way over the top in his response to everything; hunting mice with a cannon if you will. Supposedly Arthas was giving us greater and greater tests to ultimately determine our worth for his army but Deathwing seems more the type to stomp us like ants if we show up on the radar.

I hope we lose a lot of ground in Cataclysm and our greatest victories only win us our survival. I hope to be crawling out of the rubble when I shouldn't be alive on more than one occasion.

Bierzkrieg · 05/13/10, 5:02 AM

That's something I'm actually curious about: whether Deathwing will pursue his vengeance against certain groups and characters.

The gronn seem to have been taken care of, that leaves Dalaran, Rhonin, Khadgar and, well, I guess the mandatory other aspects.

On Deathwing's modus operandi, I'm hoping for the same as you, Whisker. This time, I'm hoping we get to have setbacks.

Leviathon · 05/13/10, 8:58 PM

It seems Garrosh has a bit of a redeeming moment in Stonetalon. This is also the questline where you see the Grimtotem allied with the Alliance.

You work your way up the ranks of the horde army the entire time it looks like Garrosh is a ruthless ahole who only care about winning. He's not there but his generals do a lot of down talking thralls horde and other "motivational" speeches.

You eventually get to a Tauren outpost where this Orc General says the Druids in that area are hiding a WMD, the Tauren Druid says that's insane. The Druid asks you to find his son but his son is dead and has the general badge in his hand. A fight breaks out you side with the druid who realizes he just made a boo boo.

He asks you to go tell the leader of this platoon (we'll call him Schmuck) what happened and that the druid was just defending himself. Schmuck gets pissed and runs off to deal with the druid. You go back to the tauren out post it's in flames, the druids daughter is dead and on the bridge to the elevator Schmuck and the Druid are looking out to the magic druid tree. Schmuck tells you to sit back and watch what it means to be a horde. He literally nukes the tree.

Garosh appears and tells Schmuck that a great warrior *cough*saurfang*cough* told him while he was in northrend what it means to be a horde (something like that). They don't kill women and children and stuff like that. He grabs Schmuck by the neck and drops him off the bridge turns to you and as he's about to toss your ass too the Druid tells him to stop that you tried to stop this. Garrosh says your work here is done now you can either go help the horde in the south barrens or desolace.

At the end of the Mulgore quest chain you have a event where you need to kill the Grimtotem blocking a path into Stonetalon and this is the conversation between Baine and the Grimtotem.

Omo Grimtotem: Enough! This foolish dance is over!
*Baine Bloodhoof appears*
Baine Bloodhoof: Indeed, Grimtotem.
Omo Grimtotem: Baine! You've shown yourself! GET HIM!
*2 Grimtotem ambushers attack Baine*
Omo Grimtotem: You will die in shame like your pathetic father.
Baine Bloodhoof: It took a coward's poison and the fury of Hellscream himself to bring my father down.
Baine Bloodhoof: WHAT CHANCE HAVE YOU?
*Baine kills both Ambushers*
Omo Grimtotem: This isn't over, Baine...
Baine Bloodhoof: It is for you.
*Baine kills Omo Grimtotem

Nathanyel · 05/13/10, 9:33 PM

Baine Bloodhoof: It took a coward's poison and the fury of Hellscream himself to bring my father down.

Er what? That does sound like Garrosh has at least some unintended fault in Cairne's death...

Then again, if he really listened to Varok back then despite his own words, that is indeed a redeeming moment.

Leviathon · 05/13/10, 9:45 PM

Right now we don't know WHY Garrosh and Cairne were dueling (since that's where he died). I guess it's something that we will find out in the coming months. There are a few more things that happen during starter quests that show the issues within the Horde now.

Sylvanas uses the plague on Gilneas after being told not too and Vol'jin only stayed in the Horde due to Thrall urging him to stay. Thrall sends a SI:7 emblem to Garrosh at the end of the goblin quests that causes Garrosh to turn pale which hints that he MAY have had a part in it and Garrosh is involved in Cairnes death whether he told Magatha to poison him or not.

Kaejin · 05/13/10, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

It seems Garrosh has a bit of a redeeming moment in Stonetalon. This is also the questline where you see the Grimtotem allied with the Alliance.

Wait, what? After all the business in Dustwallow, neither side had any problems with this?

Halibell · 05/14/10, 1:01 AM

I saw this on mmo and it relates to the earlier posts about Garrosh and Cairne. But take it with a grain of salt of course.

-The flashback you get from Vol'jin actually takes place right after Thrall left. It's been awhile since then.
-Immediately after Garrosh took offense to Vol'jin's comments and kicked the trolls back to the echo islands to "cool down," Cairne started traveling to Orgrimmar.
-When he arrives he says that Garrosh could be a great leader if tempered, but for now he is not ready. Then Cairne challenges him to a nonlethal duel for leadership of the horde.
-Garrosh really likes and respects Cairne and doesn't want to fight him, but feels obligated as he believes the horde needs the fury of a Hellscream.
-They fight. Garrosh is actually doing his best not to injure the old cow. Unfortunately we later find out that Magatha has been poisoning Cairne for either weeks or months, and it really starts showing.
-Right as Garrosh is aiming a disarming swing to end the fight, Cairne stumbles or collapses and catches the axe right in the chest, dying instantly. He may have been dead from the poison before the axe even hit.
-Garrosh freaks the f*ck out and has a breakdown over the event and locks himself alone in the throne room. In the meantime Magatha takes over Thunder Bluff and the Grimtotem go all fascist state.
-Sometime later Garrosh emerges a lot more calm, leads a raid to put TB back in the hands of Baine, and basically starts acting like Saurfang with a mean streak instead of a psychopathic whiner.

There's also apparently some quest where an overzealous orc commander nukes a neutral druid base. It kills women and children. Garrosh rides up sometime later, quietly makes a statement like "a great warrior once told me that the horde began to fail when it lost all sense of mercy for the innocent, that will not happen again" and breaks the guy's neck before lobbing him off a cliff.

Leviathon · 05/14/10, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Halibell

I saw this on mmo and it relates to the earlier posts about Garrosh and Cairne. But take it with a grain of salt of course.

-The flashback you get from Vol'jin actually takes place right after Thrall left. It's been awhile since then.
-Immediately after Garrosh took offense to Vol'jin's comments and kicked the trolls back to the echo islands to "cool down," Cairne started traveling to Orgrimmar.
-When he arrives he says that Garrosh could be a great leader if tempered, but for now he is not ready. Then Cairne challenges him to a nonlethal duel for leadership of the horde.
-Garrosh really likes and respects Cairne and doesn't want to fight him, but feels obligated as he believes the horde needs the fury of a Hellscream.
-They fight. Garrosh is actually doing his best not to injure the old cow. Unfortunately we later find out that Magatha has been poisoning Cairne for either weeks or months, and it really starts showing.
-Right as Garrosh is aiming a disarming swing to end the fight, Cairne stumbles or collapses and catches the axe right in the chest, dying instantly. He may have been dead from the poison before the axe even hit.
-Garrosh freaks the f*ck out and has a breakdown over the event and locks himself alone in the throne room. In the meantime Magatha takes over Thunder Bluff and the Grimtotem go all fascist state.
-Sometime later Garrosh emerges a lot more calm, leads a raid to put TB back in the hands of Baine, and basically starts acting like Saurfang with a mean streak instead of a psychopathic whiner.

There's also apparently some quest where an overzealous orc commander nukes a neutral druid base. It kills women and children. Garrosh rides up sometime later, quietly makes a statement like "a great warrior once told me that the horde began to fail when it lost all sense of mercy for the innocent, that will not happen again" and breaks the guy's neck before lobbing him off a cliff.

Judging by what we know now it seems all that is true and it really does make Garrosh more likable like Kisirani hinted.

The Alliance half is this which is kinda backed by the Dark Iron NPC's added in 3.3.

-The people of stormwind hate Wrynn right now. They think that he deliberately taunted Deathwing out of hiding with Onyxia's head. Most of them believe that he's a bloodthirsty moron.

-Most of the sh*t really goes down in Ironforge though. I don't have nearly as many details as on the horde version, but Magni is afraid that earthquakes are going to destroy the city. He decides he's going to open up Old Ironforge and try to commune with the earth spirits there, despite a Wildhammer shaman envoy telling him that he won't be able to handle it. He botches the ritual and ends up permanently turned to stone.

-Moira returns. With dark iron heir in tow, and all the dark irons that escaped Blackrock. Wildhammers also converge on the city fearing a half dark iron on the throne. Massive, massive civil war in the streets. Wrynn leads some adventurers in and kills Moira and sets up a council of leaders with one from each clan to hold power until her child grows up. The dwarves agree to this, but they and the gnomes are f*cking enraged at Wrynn for meddling in the affairs of another kingdom like that, paranoid that he's going to turn into a tyrant.

-Basically everyone hates Wrynn. Dwarves and gnomes are fearful of him not respecting boundries. Humans think that while he worked in Northrend he'll never make a good standing king. Genn Graymane tells him that he acts like an orc. It's some pretty intense political sh*t compared to the horde, where people are like "well, Garrosh admits he was an idiot and is manning up, plus he's winning us shitloads of territory, so he's cool."

Fnar · 05/14/10, 3:42 AM

I for one am really liking the direction being taken by Blizzard if the contents of the preceeding three or four posts turns out to be accurate.

Intra as well as interfaction tension or conflict should really give an added edge. We are so used to our faction leaders seemingly going unquestioned it's nice to see that perhaps the other 8/10 leaders will have something to say and it's not just going to be the Varian and Garrosh show like WotLK ultimately was.

Varian killing Moira seems a little over the top though will have to see how that pans out hopefully it will transpire he had no choice, also are we to understand that Magni is now dead?

The stuff with Garrosh is actually going a long way to me changing my opinion of him already, especially how he handles Cairnes death.

Hopefully we will see a much darker feel to this expansion with warring factions, Deathwing, Twilght Cultists, Elemental lords, Naga, Old Gods and internal strife, certainly feels like Blizzard is trying to give us what we as players want. Will be interesting to see how well this all ties in and if it doesn't end up being WrathGate II whereby we get teased with awesome lore in Act I then everything peters out after that. From what has leaked so far I am feeling pretty optimistic this time around though.

Nathanyel · 05/14/10, 5:10 AM

While the part about Garrosh's redemption sounds interesting, I'm still not sure whether I'm ok with sacrificing Cairne for this :/

Wrynn: obviously, the comic painted him in a different shade than his appearances in WoW managed to do, especially his conversation with Anduin on their way to the summit in Theramore, so as weird as it is, I'm kinda on his side there, he acts as a regulator, who knows where this civil war else might've taken the Dwarves. Though it sounds strange that he sets up a council of each of the clans as rulers of the Bronzebeard city. I hope the reasons for that are further explained. What's with his brothers though - Brann might not want to take up leadership, but Muradin definitely has some experience there, he would be the more logical choice for a regent until the designated heir is an adult (I wanted to say "until he is allowed to drink", though in Dwarven culture, this might not coincide with adulthood)
Though, when will all this happen? 3.9.5? As an intro to 4.0, if it happens just after the Cataclysm? It definitely will be told in the game, raids on TB and IF have a too great importance.