World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 568

KraxisSingular · 05/16/10, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

I'm not sure it will be much different than the way the Horde took over Shadowmoon Village and Thunderlord Stronghold, or the way the Shattered Hand still exists in the new Horde despite originally being Kargath's clan and also existing in Illidan's Horde in Outlands.

After the quest line in Dragonblight where you're asked to do some favors for the Accord to show good faith and beg forgiveness for the Old Horde's crimes against the Red Flight, I find it impossible to believe that the New Horde would take in the Dragonmaws as they exist now. It seems more likely that they would go into the Wetlands/Twilight Highlands, slaughter the remaining Dragonmaws there and claim whatever tactical positions they hold, then just name the troops they station there the new Dragonmaw clan or what have you.

The old Dragonmaws are essentially irredeemable and the mortal enemies of the Red Flight. The death and rebirth of the clan would be poetic and to the Red Flight's liking I would think.

Lets also not forget that there's a felorc branch of the Dragonmaw clan still in Outlands as well. Many clans have different sects. The Shattered Hand was already mentioned (and also not exclusively orc anymore, like many other clans), the Bleeding Hallow clan has a felorc sect and a Mag'har sect (led by Jorin Deadeye as seen in Nagrand).

The Twilight's Hammer was of course originally an Orc Clan, much like the Burning Blade (origin of the Blademasters) and the Searing Blade clans.

A lot of things happen to orc clans. They're not exactly cohesive governments that have regular meetings every Saturday at the local pub.

The Shattered Hand clan is different, they split directly, the Azerothian branch going New Horde right away, and the Outland branch going Fel Orc. They weren't killed off and then some other orcs took over the name. The Burning Blade is dead, never having had any leadership only the individual Blademasters show any rememberance of that old clan, and as far as I have noticed only one orc actually has the clan banner, of all orcs that's Mankrik in Crossroads. Apparently he is a Blademaster, and the only one I have seen.
Neither the Shadowmoon Village nor the Thunderlord Strongohld inhabitants actually took the name, they remained whatever clan they were before, only now they served as Shadowmoon Village Grunt etc. The only Shadowmoon clan orcs that you ever meet are quite unfriendly. Mostly they are in instances.

No, I'm with Leviathon here, the Dragonmaws see the error of their ways and try to make amends. And we are likely going to help them. Even Garrosh wouldn't be so stupid and antagonize the Red Flight.
I guess I could imagine only a segment of the Dragonmaws joining the New Horde. Seeing as they are based in Twilight Highlands/Twin Peaks, they must have migrated from Wetlands. There are of course many possible reasons for that, but if we imagine they left because the situation looked grim in Wetlands, or just to get away from the evil Dragonmaws, then we have a situation that could be worked on.

But I still don't like them. Why retain the cursed name if you try to distance yourself from past evils? And why only make the switch now that things apparently are going against the Wetland Dragonmaws. They had plenty time to come to their senses.

Emeraude · 05/16/10, 12:22 PM

You guys are applying too much mortality to the situation. "If they're sorry it's ok if they joined." "If they were destroyed and rebuilt, it's ok for them to join." etc etc.

The fact of the matter is that the Dragonmaw are Dragon experts, for the past 10-15, years or so since the end of the 2nd War, these guys have been dragon wranglers, they know their Dragons. The worst of all Dragons(Deathwing) just attacked Azeroth and changed everything. So turning to the ones for aid who have brought another Aspect to her knees isn't crazy sounding now is it?

They're just Orcs, they're not Fel Orcs, they're old school Orcs that lost a war, there's no reason not to bring them into the fold if they're willing to get in line, especially in this new world, and if they give the Horde a foothold in the Wetlands.

Liebestod · 05/16/10, 5:09 PM

I think even that's looking into things too much. The fact is that Blizzard needed to give the Horde a toehold into Wetlands / Twilight Highlands and saying that the Dragonmaw rejoined the Horde is simply the easiest way to do that. The rationalization comes afterwards.

[Edit]

Okay the end of Emeraude's post basically says as much. But I really think that's all that matters. If Deathwing had taken over Gnomeregan rather than Grim Batol we'd probably see the Dun Morogh ice trolls suddenly be Horde allies. That's all there is to it.

shatter · 05/16/10, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

I think even that's looking into things too much. The fact is that Blizzard needed to give the Horde a toehold into Wetlands / Twilight Highlands and saying that the Dragonmaw rejoined the Horde is simply the easiest way to do that. The rationalization comes afterwards.

[Edit]

Okay the end of Emeraude's post basically says as much. But I really think that's all that matters. If Deathwing had taken over Gnomeregan rather than Grim Batol we'd probably see the Dun Morogh ice trolls suddenly be Horde allies. That's all there is to it.

Even though from a gameplay standpoint that might be true, it still doesn't answer the question from the storyline perspective. Even if it might only come afterwards (as a 'rationalization', to use your term), it still has to be a credible one (or at least try to be). That's the main point of this thread, by the way, discussing lore and storyline.

Liebestod · 05/16/10, 10:06 PM

Nothing is going to answer that question here because the story isn't public yet. We're throwing out speculation that might make more or less sense, and pointing out that low-sense explanations should be expected because of pragmatic necessities certainly doesn't subvert the point of the thread.

KraxisSingular · 05/17/10, 12:28 AM

The Horde has a plenty nice base in Arathi Highlands and a landline all the way back to Undercity. They could just as easily have pushed in with given forces, it's not like Thandol Span is guarded.

They basically didn't need the Dragonmaw. Since they are pretty bad guys it will take a serious effort to make it something that is acceptable. Just look at the Blood Elves, they had an actual reason to join the Horde, still people get riled up about them. The Dragonmaw... meh.

I do not deny the gameplay reason, but it could have been done easier and more believable than grabbing some of the more despicable non-Horde clans (in terms of actual political problems). If the Wildhammers can go there from Hinterlands, then the Horde can easily traverse Thandol Span.

Leviathon · 05/17/10, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

The Horde has a plenty nice base in Arathi Highlands and a landline all the way back to Undercity. They could just as easily have pushed in with given forces, it's not like Thandol Span is guarded.

They basically didn't need the Dragonmaw. Since they are pretty bad guys it will take a serious effort to make it something that is acceptable. Just look at the Blood Elves, they had an actual reason to join the Horde, still people get riled up about them. The Dragonmaw... meh.

I do not deny the gameplay reason, but it could have been done easier and more believable than grabbing some of the more despicable non-Horde clans (in terms of actual political problems). If the Wildhammers can go there from Hinterlands, then the Horde can easily traverse Thandol Span.

The Wildhammers were already there so they didn't really need to come from anywhere (they went to the Hinterlands from what is now the Twilight Highlands). Allying with whatever forces you can in a area full of dwarves against you is a pretty good tactical choice and the leaderless Dragonmaw were likely easy to corral.

Itzena · 05/17/10, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

The Horde has a plenty nice base in Arathi Highlands and a landline all the way back to Undercity. They could just as easily have pushed in with given forces, it's not like Thandol Span is guarded.

They basically didn't need the Dragonmaw. Since they are pretty bad guys it will take a serious effort to make it something that is acceptable. Just look at the Blood Elves, they had an actual reason to join the Horde, still people get riled up about them. The Dragonmaw... meh.

I do not deny the gameplay reason, but it could have been done easier and more believable than grabbing some of the more despicable non-Horde clans (in terms of actual political problems). If the Wildhammers can go there from Hinterlands, then the Horde can easily traverse Thandol Span.

Point one: You are assuming that the Thandol Span is still there.
Point two: You are assuming that Hammerfall is still there.

Now I don't know either way, but assumptions like that when the only people who do know are either under NDA or working with a sandbox that doesn't handle phasing properlt is probably a little unwise.

Leviathon · 05/17/10, 4:03 AM

Originally Posted by Itzena

Point one: You are assuming that the Thandol Span is still there.
Point two: You are assuming that Hammerfall is still there.

Now I don't know either way, but assumptions like that when the only people who do know are either under NDA or working with a sandbox that doesn't handle phasing properlt is probably a little unwise.

I doubt they will phase away entire towns outside the starting zones for Goblins and Worgen and areas that do phase terrain in any large way are mapped within the files making them viewable (such as the Stonetalon tree explosion and Gilneas' flooding). There is no reason why the Thandol Span would disappear either as it would be a pointless break in the connection between the 2 sections of the continent but it would be neat I guess if the Dark Irons actually did manage to take it out.

I am sure we will get a reason why and how the Horde allied with the Dragonmaw once the zone is opened up in the Beta.

Bierzkrieg · 05/17/10, 8:06 AM

Well, they might be "Black Ops" dragonhunters. Even if they punch a few Alliance soldiers in the gut, it's not like Alexstrasza will know. They might indeed come in handy.

But as for this new allegiance becoming public...I'd advise against it. Alextrasza must still be pretty traumatized with what was done to her and her kids. When she let Deathwing experience the pain she'd been through, he almost fainted. So I'd keep the Dragonmaw hidden.

Camaris · 05/17/10, 3:37 PM

I don't see how the Dragonmaw can be a big deal. The only surviving Dragonmaw orcs on Azeroth seem to be some poorly equipped stragglers in the hills of Wetlands, and now possibly a similar bunch of them in the Highlands. Alexstrasza already attacked Grim Batol once, burninating and eating orcs wherever she went. The Horde and Alliance's recent activities in Northrend saw both factions working closely with the Reds in both the Nexus War and the Wrathgate battle. Not to mention the fact that Deathwing himself will come bursting out of the earth... I'm pretty sure Alex has other things on her head than a few orcs.

Leviathon · 05/18/10, 3:50 AM

In tonight's Alpha build Garrosh had his model updated to look like that figurine that is being released.

Camaris · 05/18/10, 4:43 AM

A new daily screenshot of Gilneas. It appears to show ancient elven architecture (the first in Eastern Kingdoms?) being swallowed up by a spooky tree. I'm not sure what has already been leaked regarding this, but it does look like we will explore how the night elves and Elune figure into this whole worgen curse affair.

Bierzkrieg · 05/18/10, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

In tonight's Alpha build Garrosh had his model updated to look like that figurine that is being released.

Our own tusk-sporting Warchief. I'm sticking to this as my reason for liking Garrosh. Can you tell us if he's wielding Gorehowl?

Camaris has a point, everyone is on red alert so there's little mental room to worry about the ethical contortionism required to side with the Dragonmaw. That being said, those within the Horde that are uncomfortable with Garrosh's ascension may find the thought of siding with a dark part of their past disturbing. On the other side, a great deal of orc combatants deal with past atrocities they commited during the first and second wars. So that may serve as an enabler for accepting the Dragonmaw.

The biggest problem is that we don't know their state of mind. They can adapt to the ways of the New Horde - assuming Garrosh leaves any intact - or they may be given free berserking cards and just behave like a pack of animals bringing dragons down wherever they find them.

All in all, I wouldn't discard the possibility of the Dragonmaw's enlistment causing serious problems so soon. Alextrasza is, above all, a mother. And it was in that sense that the orcs enslaved her and raised some severely deformed, savage drakes. So, I doubt she's burried it all. Siding with her captors may be stretching the rope a bit much.

Nathanyel · 05/18/10, 6:10 AM

I do hope that Thrall gets an unique model until 4.0 goes live, would be lame if Garrosh got an own before him.