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Old 10/15/08, 10:41 AM   #841
Douglas
Don Flamenco
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Jebraltar View Post
The notion of a phased, CoT-based expansion also seems somewhat irritating from the perspective of, say, a Tauren. The majority of the well-known lore battles they could reproduce are from the First/Second Wars or the War of Eternity - any of which would have to have everyone disguised as Night Elves, Humans, Orcs, etc.
Eh? The big battle back when the Well of Eternity was destroyed, when Illidan got his burning eyes, when Nordrasil was planted, et cetera, there was a war and Tauren were in the army. Dwarves weren't yet, because they were still Earthen back then, but Tauren were. Rhonin was the only human around, and was considered a freak. Broxigar was the only orc around, and was considered a freak.

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Old 10/15/08, 1:51 PM   #842
Jebraltar
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Staghelm
Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
Eh? The big battle back when the Well of Eternity was destroyed, when Illidan got his burning eyes, when Nordrasil was planted, et cetera, there was a war and Tauren were in the army. Dwarves weren't yet, because they were still Earthen back then, but Tauren were. Rhonin was the only human around, and was considered a freak. Broxigar was the only orc around, and was considered a freak.
My mistake - I thought that that Tauren were still sort of sidelines folk at the time. That said, Humans would still have been completely out of place, orcs likewise, Forsaken at least as much if not moreso, etc.

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Old 10/15/08, 3:07 PM   #843
Enova
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Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Liebestod View Post
Given the new phasing technology, I could see them really taking liberties with it for the purpose of a CoT expansion.

I just can't see it as being a high priority at this point, with so much in the present world left to flesh out.
Exactly so; the next expansion might not be a continent in itself, but there's lots of stuff in the existing continents to keep them going for a lot more expansions. Say the undisclosed instance in patch 3.2 is not AN (or even if it is for that matter), just tying up the loose ends of Gilneas and Kul'Tiras on one side, Grim Batol and the red dragonflight, Uludar and the titans, Hyjal, Deathwing and the Black Dragonflight (possibly in Outland, too) would give them enough material for an expansion, and provided they could pack the whole bunch of different stories and conflicting schemes in an expansion, it wouldn't add any new continents, while still providing several zones for people to level in.

Originally Posted by XI- View Post
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
You people are idiots
Guilty as charged ^

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Old 10/16/08, 8:56 AM   #844
Rerox
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Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Exactly so; the next expansion might not be a continent in itself, but there's lots of stuff in the existing continents to keep them going for a lot more expansions. Say the undisclosed instance in patch 3.2 is not AN (or even if it is for that matter), just tying up the loose ends of Gilneas and Kul'Tiras on one side, Grim Batol and the red dragonflight, Uludar and the titans, Hyjal, Deathwing and the Black Dragonflight (possibly in Outland, too) would give them enough material for an expansion, and provided they could pack the whole bunch of different stories and conflicting schemes in an expansion, it wouldn't add any new continents, while still providing several zones for people to level in.
You are forgetting about the marketing of such an expansion.

What you describe might "feel" good when played, but it will not "sell" good to 10-12 million subscribers.

"Visit the new ...", "Experience the new ..."

that's what sells the boxes. New lands to explore, new race or class to play, not experiencing old areas in a new way.
Details like that are largely expected to happen in content patches, not the large scale expansion add-ons.

Lets face it, there WILL be a completely new area to explore. The next expansion will with 100% certainity not play in Northrend or in well known Azerothian areas again and everything that might be added to Azeroth itself will be sidework to the main context.

This opinion is not based on any secret insider information, just on plain and simple economical considerations.

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Old 10/16/08, 10:35 AM   #845
Sydane
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Argent Dawn
From a marketing standpoint, you can sell anything as new. In fact, it can actually be easier to sell change as new than just new as new. I think Blizzard understands that the third expansion is going to be where the "formula" starts feeling a bit overdone. A new continent, maybe a new class, a new grind from 80 to 90, new factions, there's very little that sets that apart from BC or LK. It may be new, but it's new in the same old way. BC introduced many things during its content cycle that having them at the beginning of LK is "new" in a way (stuff like dailies). We're also seeing a new class for the first time. That won't be the case for expansion number three. Selling something as seeing "not the same old Azeroth any more" and playing up massive changes in many ways would seem more new than just visiting the south seas.

A parallel universe of sorts, a true updating of the old worlds, things like that would definitely break away from the paradigm. Increasingly I think we're much more likely to see Emerald Dream next than Maelstrom because Maelstrom would just be a new area, sure it might be islands instead of a continent, but it's still much the same. Emerald Dream has the potential to be something truly otherworldly, possibly much more disjointed and less structured. I don't know much of the lore beyond what is ingame, but I've always had the impression of it as being very surreal and tend to think of places like Planescape when it is referred to.

Empathy does not imply approval.

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Old 10/16/08, 12:38 PM   #846
Randyll
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Vashj (EU)
Originally Posted by Sydane View Post
From a marketing standpoint, you can sell anything as new. In fact, it can actually be easier to sell change as new than just new as new. I think Blizzard understands that the third expansion is going to be where the "formula" starts feeling a bit overdone. A new continent, maybe a new class, a new grind from 80 to 90, new factions, there's very little that sets that apart from BC or LK. It may be new, but it's new in the same old way. BC introduced many things during its content cycle that having them at the beginning of LK is "new" in a way (stuff like dailies). We're also seeing a new class for the first time. That won't be the case for expansion number three. Selling something as seeing "not the same old Azeroth any more" and playing up massive changes in many ways would seem more new than just visiting the south seas.
Nobody knows whether there will be new classes yet, so it can't be ruled out entirely. There's still a handful of noteworthy lore characters to be exterminated.

As long as the expansion has a theme players can easily relate to, it won't be a problem to make money with it. Burning Crusade was successful because it was new (as a concept, an expansion) and introduced lots of new content. Northrend and Arthas isn't new in itself. Just so, that's really what makes expansions like WoTLK really good: players are familiar with it. Almost everyone knows who Arthas is, what is the Scourge and why do we have to embark on a journey full of vengeance. We know what's ahead of us, I wouldn't set my course against stuff that is too otherwordly.

I know it's a detail in the long run but they have to consider what kind of a threshold they're crossing. A place that players know nothing about might be too alien for the general public. Players will want to visit places for a reason. I know it's a bit naive to think that every player wants to see Arthas or whatever: people have different goals, some want to have something to do (i.e. too bored but not bored enough to quit) as in leveling, exploring new content and killing stuff that moves, naming a few.

If Blizzard stays true to its word and really gives us something new, it could be a blast. But it could be a flop, too. Myself, I'd like to see what's up with the Maelstrom than the Emerald Dream.

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Old 10/16/08, 1:23 PM   #847
Aditu
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Nyxnissa
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CoT as an expansion itself isn't necessary because they can keep adding CoT instances with every single expansion pack, as they've done so far.

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Old 10/22/08, 7:52 AM   #848
Randyll
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Human Paladin
 
Vashj (EU)
I recently re-did these two quests on beta:

The Shining Light - Quest - World of Warcraft
Guided by Honor - Quest - World of Warcraft

The player is tasked with retrieving a "sacred artifact" from the Utgarde Catacombs. Unless I'm mistaken, in the latter quest, this item is revealed to be none other than the Ashbringer, and players are retrieving it for Tirion Fordring to wield.

However, in the the Death Knight questline, it's established that Darion Mograine was the wielder of this weapon. The way he got it from his father is rather unclear, it's what the Ashbringer comics are dealing with. However, from the DK questline, it's clearly established that he got the weapon from his father in Naxxramas, plunged it through his heart in order to save his father, died and became a death knight, got betrayed by Arthas in the light of dawn, and finally gave it to Tirion, whose grip cleansed it.

So a few questions came to mind:
  1. How did the blade end up in the Utgarde Catacombs?
  2. Is the quest just another way for non-dk's to participate in getting the Ashbringer to the hands of Fordring?
  3. Or was the quest introduced in early WoTLK development when the Death Knight questline wasn't completely outlined? (Highly unlikely.)

As to #3, the quest giver could have passed the blade to Darion Mograine. But it doesn't explain how the blade ended up there.

Last edited by Randyll : 10/22/08 at 8:48 AM.

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Old 10/22/08, 8:07 AM   #849
gorsameth
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Draenor (EU)
I think the general idea about this sofar has been that Tirion received the weapon from Darion mograin.
It was then lost on its journey to Northrend by whoever Tirion assigned to carry it (how you lose on the of the greatest relics of modern time is something else)
And you then have to retrieve it from the catacombs to once again return it to Tirion.

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Old 10/22/08, 8:45 AM   #850
Randyll
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Vashj (EU)
Just so, I'll quote a part of the quest:

Our forces were decimated in the Plaguelands. By the light of dawn, the artifact was cleansed and made pure once more. So many perished in the wake of its redemption.

...

The artifact was hurled into the den of the fallen, far below us. Guarded by the unmerciful dead.
What does this mean? Why would they toss it down there, or more importantly, who would do it?

Interestingly, WoWWiki has another version (older?) of the quest:

Wrested the artifact from the hands of a fallen warrior of Light. Our forces descended from the dread heart of Naxxramas. So many perished in the wake of its redemption.
To me, this looks like in the original version (the one WoWWiki has), the light of dawn wasn't fully outlined yet. The dialogue following the second part of the quest probably implies that Tirion Fordring did indeed give the blade for someone to carry. Still, that part, and the losing of the blade, strike me as something really awkward. Like you said, how can you lose such a thing?

I guess it's just something they had to implement so that all (Alliance) players would have something to do with the Ashbringer early in Northrend. I mean, there's hardly any good explanation for having "the artifact hurled into the den of the fallen", other than for players to rescue it.

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Old 10/22/08, 2:45 PM   #851
SpaceDrake
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Gnome Monk
 
Shadow Council
Uh, Randyll, it's really easy.

1) Darion gets the Ashbringer from Daddy. This will happen in Ashbringer Comic #2 or #3, probably #3.

2) Darion plunges the Ashbringer through his chest in a final, desperate attempt to cleanse it. This will almost certainly be the climax of the Ashbringer Comic. The attempt backfires and while it frees Alexandros' soul, it damns Darion instead.

3) Darion becomes the new leader of the DKs. See the DK starter line.

4) Darion throws the Ashbringer to Tirion in an act of desperation. Tirion's raw awesomeness cleanses the thing.

5) To ensure that Tirion and his ship are not buried under angry undead, Tirion travels to Northrend disguised, and the Ashbringer is taken seperately. Irulon explains as much when you turn in the last quest. Somehow, the bearer of Ashbringer gets waylaid on reaching Northrend and is taken into Utgarde.

6) The player quests in Catacombs happen. The Ashbringer is recovered and brought back to Tirion who can now reveal himself openly and start kicking ass.

It really isn't that hard to track the events.

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Old 10/22/08, 3:22 PM   #852
Randyll
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Vashj (EU)
Originally Posted by SpaceDrake View Post
Uh, Randyll, it's really easy.

1) Darion gets the Ashbringer from Daddy. This will happen in Ashbringer Comic #2 or #3, probably #3.

2) Darion plunges the Ashbringer through his chest in a final, desperate attempt to cleanse it. This will almost certainly be the climax of the Ashbringer Comic. The attempt backfires and while it frees Alexandros' soul, it damns Darion instead.

3) Darion becomes the new leader of the DKs. See the DK starter line.

4) Darion throws the Ashbringer to Tirion in an act of desperation. Tirion's raw awesomeness cleanses the thing.

5) To ensure that Tirion and his ship are not buried under angry undead, Tirion travels to Northrend disguised, and the Ashbringer is taken seperately. Irulon explains as much when you turn in the last quest. Somehow, the bearer of Ashbringer gets waylaid on reaching Northrend and is taken into Utgarde.

6) The player quests in Catacombs happen. The Ashbringer is recovered and brought back to Tirion who can now reveal himself openly and start kicking ass.

It really isn't that hard to track the events.
The parts leading up to 5 were clear enough, in fact, they've been all over this thread for a multitude of pages. I think my wording of the first post was a bit bad, my mistake. I didn't mean to wonder how the Ashbringer came into existence (it's already at page one), so if you thought I was trying to iterate what's already been said a hundred times, I apologize.

What I meant was from an analytic perspective, with the whole thing was that how exactly is it possible for someone to lose something like this, with all of it going unnoticed? Surely being one of the most important artifacts and one of the rare weapons that can (supposedly) put a dent in the Lich King's armor. With him being so powerful he is, he'd surely notice its presence in his own backyard. Why is the place surrounding it crawling with undead, when it's presence make them run away from it if anything?

I was wondering why such quests are in place, as to discuss the actual point for their existence. The whole thing seems absurd, only to serve as having every player interact with the artifact - does that justify it?

Also I recall reading Ashbringer #4 (the climax you're referring to) deals with the LHC battle, according to the synopsis on blizzplanet.

Last edited by Randyll : 10/22/08 at 4:25 PM.

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Old 10/22/08, 6:44 PM   #853
Leguaran
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Human Mage
 
Gilneas
<edited out>

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Old 10/22/08, 6:49 PM   #854
Anedris
King Hippo
 
Troll Priest
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
It does seem random that the carrier of the Ashbringer gets waylaid and ends up dead in some dungeon without Arthas noticing, but hardly beyond the realm of possibility (assuming the undead around it are not reporting to Arthas but are simply random unaffiliated undead such as show up all over the place) since the whole point of the endeavour was to prevent Arthas from noticing either Tirion or the sword. Ashbringer is given to someone relatively unprotected on the logic that Arthas will not think to look closely at someone relatively unprotected. The carrier falls afoul of some completely mundane catastrophe (shipwreck or Vrykul raid/pirates). Arthas still has no idea Ashbringer has come to Northrend and though the Argent Crusade knows the sword is lost they don't want to make a big fuss about it because Arthas would notice...

I'm not sure that undead would have any special reaction to the Ashbringer if it's just lying on the ground. One of the dialogues in the old LHC actually emphasized that it was the man (i.e., Alexandros), not the sword, that was the source of its power (and presumably Tirion qualifies as well, but the sword alone doesn't necessarily do any harm to undead).

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Old 10/22/08, 10:26 PM   #855
Jebraltar
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Staghelm
Also worth noticing are that Ashbringer doesn't destroy all undead - Forsaken and Death Knights both do just fine around Tirion. It also doesn't seem to be a passive effect, it's something that actually happens during combat - in one of the questlines in Icecrown, you get to see the sword in action.

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