Hey y'all:

This is the "World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion" thread. Not the "I saw a screenshot on MMO-Champion, lemme just copy and paste it here hurp durp" thread. If all you have to add is a screenshot without anything about how it relates to "lore & storyline dicussion," do us a favour and don't bother. We can all browse MMO-Champion ourselves, it's not that hard.

Speaking of Garrosh, are those supposed to be Mannoroth's tusks that he's wearing? Does this mean the current "shrine" in Org is gone? What does that really say about Garrosh if he's taken that down and is wearing them around?

From what I've seen, he's mounted Mannoroth's skull on top of his throne - The bones of mannoroth - Cataclysm - Wowhead Forums. Which looks nothing like a throne, but rather one of Frank Ghery's works - with spikes.

Can't recall if the tusks were in the throne too, but if Garrosh is wearing them around - and it makes sense - he's simply being himself. He has the spirit of a "headhunter" and he's proud of his heritage. Of course, we've yet to see him prove his real worth in battle with a serious enemy, so sporting his father's biggest victory (and cause of death) might not sit too well with those who remember Grom, even if his son has the same martial-mindedness.

I'm still a bit at a loss at what the post release raid structure is going to look like. Based on what we know so far, it looks like C'thun is getting setup for a return in Uldum. If that proves to be true, I think its fair to say we'll get an Uldum raid with him as the main creature feature. I would imagine the Anubs will just be 5m only content.

In Vashj'ir, everything we've heard about so far seems to imply there is an Old God (or two) down there also. But would they really do two Old God raids in one expansion? Maybe they're just setting up the underwater Old God for the future Aszhara Expansion? Will we see Neptulon as a raid boss? From what I've seen, it looks like he is going to get stuck into one of the Abyssal Maw 5-mans. If so, what the hell else can be used as a raid boss?

What does that mean for the worgen summoned by Arugal? Is the 'other dimension' they come from really the Emerald Dream?

Great work there, especially on the bear (uber-dire badger) form, but the cat-wolf is also appropriate, sober-looking and all.

I understand trolls are a little more "colourful" in their customs and appearance, but I think the Big Blue should draw a bit more from these designs for the troll forms. I was afraid worgen would look manga-ish in their animal forms, but it turns out that was the trolls' fate.

Regarding Old Gods and such, are we sure there is an underwater raid? I've actually grown to accept having "major" characters (Neptulon isn't exactly one, story-wise) as 5-man bosses. Loken worked out pretty well, and we killed Malygos before a 5-year-old-voiced-robot. As for having multiple Old Gods in a single expansion, they might just be referred to and their plans foiled, no need for them to actually show up.

Those probably got slaughtered by Retcon. A potent boss, that one. He knows no pity or remorse at gutting a storyline.

Which is starting to get tiresome. I don't mind - that much - having a slightly contrived explanation for something happening, but getting complete inconsistencies introduced, then rewriting history - and, in this occurence, quite a bit of game - willy-nilly to cover your tracks...

Of course, there were already two separate origins for the Worgen. Both Arugal and Velinde summoned Worgens independently from an extradimensional realm; Arugal's version is the only one that directly suggested that the Worgen state was not natural, but transmissible. Certainly, the attempts to tie both sides of the story in Grizzly Hills indicated that this was the direction the story was taking.

Having it retconned into an order of druids creating a curse is... about as smart as retconning that Eredars were goody-buddies and their perversion of Sargeras is someone misreading some scroll or whatever. Specially when there is no game reason for doing so: if you want to tie the Worgen to the Night Elves, there's already all the pieces in-game right now, from Velinde's story (she only tought the Scythe was summoning worgens... but in fact, it was the curse spreading! The NE did it, they must now help - in both original and retconned version).

It cements my opinion on Blizzard's lore team and chief loremaster as... slightly less than competent. Or some harsher words to the same. I certainly would use worse words today than I did in this very thread years ago when BC came about...

The thing is, both stories could work together in a reasonable fashion. Perhaps the 'pure' worgen that Velinde and Arugal summoned are actually the Druids of the Scythe that are imprisoned (or whatever) in the Dream. Only Arugal had the unfortunate luck to also summon the original curse.

The whole 'extradimensional' thing could then be explained as an imperfect understanding of the Emerald Dream on the part of Arugal.

It's interesting that this whole druids-turning-into-animals thing is very similar to what trolls like to do. It seems these ancient animal gods weren't necessarily as fluffy and cute as we're led to believe by their worshipers.

They may hint at one, but I'd be really surprised if they actually included a 2nd as an actual raid. After Deathwing, Azshara is the last major evil power left on Azeroth (not counting old gods or Sargeras lurking around somewhere). Since the creation of the Naga and the Old Gods are tied, it would make sense to fully reveal said old god in whatever expansion actually lets us battle Azshara.

I'm inclined to disagree after re-checking the two relevant pieces. There's [The Book of Ur] written by a mage of Dalaran. We don't know exactly when the book was written, outside of it being sometime before the events of Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos. At any case, it mentions their home dimension being "a dark place, a place of nightmare". The last word in particular is interesting when it comes to referring to the Emerald Dream.

The other primary in-game source on the subject is [Velinde's Journal], which also has an interesting line in regards to the Emerald Dream "but their enemy was unflinching: the Lords of the Emerald Flame". It's been assumed by most people this was a reference to the Burning Legion before, due to the color of Felfire. But the specific adjective used here is Emerald, which both fits the Emerald Dream but is also commonly used to describe the green Dragonflight.

Both seem to fit with the ferocious Worgen we know being products of the Emerald Nightmare. Both also do mention an extradimensional realm, but really that's what the Emerald Dream is; and it would certainly appear different enough from Azeroth as it is now for anyone who doesn't know of it's existence to assume it's an entirely different world or dimension.

I think you explained exactly what I was thinking when it came to how things were described before. There really was no retcon needed and now we just have the details to the vague things said before.

I think the curse probably just spread into Gilneas from Silverpine and the trapped population just couldn't do anything about it. We don't know how the Scythe of Elune got there either but I'd imagine that it not only summons Worgen but also spreads the curse which also may have been what started it. The story in-game starts with you in Gilneas and the city is suddenly attacked by the Worgen and you just keep losing ground until you're trapped in the Cathedral. After that you get a movie and a year passes to the start of Cataclysm.

I like how the connection to Goldrinn is known now also and I'd imagine it will be touched upon in Hyjal and other placed with the Worgen.