The real question is, how does Elune fit into all of this? And by extension, who seeded the Night-Elves? Even assuming it was trolls, there's nothing in titan-lore so far about trolls.

Would it be a far-stretch to take the Kaldorei literally as "The Children of the Stars" ?

Do Kobolds and Gnolls have skin/flesh?

There's also Uldum to go; we're nowhere near running out of sources of Titan lore. Especially given Blizzard could add another Vault etc in anywhere.

I don't expect the entire Pantheon to want to wipe out Azeroth, but I could see some kind of internal dispute or civil war over the matter, similar to the situation with the Dragonflights in Wrath.

When they wrote the text for that Uldaman quest line, I sincerely doubt they had the WOTLK lore even created/mapped out fully by that point. We all know the lore is created to fit the story alot of the time. For example, Blizzard decided that alliance would get Shamans/horde get Paladins - and races/lore was created to try and make it fit (even though the stealing the light from the Naaru thing was a pretty poor stretch..)

It does appear a contradiction to have the Uldaman lore say the creators perceived Dwarves as an 'acceptable variant' when in WOTLK the flesh races are the resulf ot a curse upon Titan creations. Surely the Titans wouldn't view their constructs - cursed by the old gods and degenerating - as acceptable? The only reasoning I can think of, is simply that Blizzard didnt have the Old Gods, Old God+Titan+Human relationships, or the Curse of the Flesh stories in mind or fully mapped out as thoroughly as now.

Ive been waiting to hear any news of the Maelstrom and Emerald Dream from WOTLK info. But it appears not much has been revealed? I was expecting more hints at where the future story arc for wow is going. We all know Arthas will be confronted (or killed) but very little has been let slip so far as to where WoW's major story will move to after that. With the legion defeated (for now) and Illidan/Vashj/Arthas expended, something big and new will be needed. Surely theres some hints from current WOTLK quests/info as to what it will be?

From interaction with the Lich King in the HF quest "Echoes of Yirmon" and after watching the trailer, I have a feeling Arthas is no longer in control. So perhaps he can be redeemed. I doubt he will be re-instated as a mortal again, but maybe a spiritual redemption is in order.

I was under the impression from Uldaman that the Titan's birthing matrix was to create the living breathing races after the titan constructs had done the shaping. This explains any races not related to Earthen/Giants/Vykrul, any possibly the races of Argus/Draenor and beyond.

Before reading this thread I assumed there was one dead Old God in Darkshore, one half trapped under Silithus and three chained in the core of the planet.
I thought that the Old God in Azjol-Nerub and the one being summoned into Shadowmoon Valley where just other avatars of C'thun, this was based on them all having the same model which the Darkshore one doesn't share.
Is it possible that Yogg-Savon and C'thun are alternate names for the same Old God?

The Neltharion corruption story doesn't make as much sense if the three chained are just below the surface, it seemed like they were able to corrupt Neltharion because he was the only one who could swim deep enough to get into range of them.

Also if the three chained Old God's are just below the surface (such as in the Maelstrom which has been suggested), then why are the Naga attempting to create a new well of eternity to summon them though? Having the chained Old God's in Azol'Nerub or Maelstom doesn't exactly scream "I'm imprisoned, help me escape by summoning me up here".

I don't think it's safe to assume that the Titans view the "curse of flesh" as unacceptable.

Also, I'll doubt we'll see real hints about the third expansion in WotLK. As I think I said before, I'd put my money on it being the Emerald Dream, but I doubt we'll see a subplot tied into it, if only because that might ruin the surprise... TBC certainly isn't tied well into WotLK, and even though Blizzard's focus on lore in WotLK is much better than TBC's, I wouldn't expect things to be different this time around.

Though it does beg the question of "what's left?" The Emerald Dream will be as exotic and alien as Northrend, if not moreso, and so it might be a letdown lorewise compared to WotLK, which has been excellent so far. Are we just going to fight another Old God who's beyond the Nightmare? Or maybe Archimonde, who we already beat? Or something new? The Maelstrom is somewhat better in this regard, but Azshara is still a much more mysterious presence than Arthas was. It seems like Northrend would've been a good "final boss" of all of Azeroth, but this clearly won't be the case.

Huh? Where are you getting this from? The Naga might be trying to recreate the Well of Eternity or reignite the old one, and we know that Azshara is in league with the Old Gods (and maybe Neptulon?), but I don't think there's any evidence that they're trying to summon them..

The Coilfang/Vashj story is largely speculation (blame TBC's designers for stunting the Naga lore), I don't think there's anything ingame about the Naga trying to melt the Borean icecaps (iirc this is maybe mentioned in Lands of Mystery, though I don't think the purpose is explained.) Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if your theory is correct, but I don't think it's safe to assume what the Naga are up to here.

There's also (just off the top of my head) Undermine, and all sorts of potential wacky Goblin hijinks, Grim Batol, present-day Hyjal, hints about something going on underneath Silithus/Ahn'Qiraj, and Gilneas.

Damn they must have removed it then. I specifically remember it being talked about at Blizzcon, it's the Old God summoning bit I'm not sure about.
There's supposed to be Naga in Riplash Ruins and that's the entire reason why part sof the zone are ice free.

I'd imagine that Undermine and the general South Seas islands - possibly Kul Tiras and Gilneas as well - would be a part of the Maelstrom expansion. There's a lot to include, but I don't see Blizzard splitting things up between multiple expansions. Personally I see the Maelstrom expansion moving back towards smaller zones, only there will be a greater number of them.

I'd also guess that present-day Hyjal would be best released with the Emerald Dream expansion, but obviously there's no guarantee of that. Grim Batol... who knows, doesn't seem to fit in anywhere really anymore, kinda like Karazhan did...

There's a lot of stuff hinted at ingame which will probably never be included - Titan vaults under Maraudon, Old Gods in Tirisfal, forges under Ahn'Qiraj, etc. etc. Of the three major unopened old world instances - Grim Batol, Uldum, and Timbermaw Hold - I'd say only Uldum has a decent chance of ever going live.

Well, there are Naga on Riplash Ruins, but they've been displaced by the Sea Vykrul. I forget the exact story there, but I'm pretty sure there were no mentions of Old Gods. They did, however, have a demigod Kraken there which you end up killing.

On a tangeantial note, I'd recommend that this topic be changed from WotLK lore discussion to just general lore discussion. Obviously it'd be WotLK-oriented at this point, but I don't think we should feel constrained to that topic if discussion moves away from it.

It's also mentioned on the preview page for Borean Tundra, and would be pretty much pure win for the Naga. Do we have any idea if they're going to be making more passes at the quests in the early zones? It could go in later.

How would they get away with redeeming Arthas, really?

I guess we could pass on that whole butchering of stratholme-thing since they'd all have died anyway and he probably saved lives by preventing them from turning into the undead and thus fighting back, but everything from that point on has basically been all evil. He disobeyed his father and king to lead an expedition to northrend, disregarded the warning from Medihv, lied to his men, betrayed and killed his own mercenaries - and from the moment he picked up Frostmourne to the point where he left for Northrend he was doing a damn good job at wiping out all life on the planet, killing every man, woman and child he came across.

Now he has apparently grown bored with mindless servants and started to corrupt the minds and souls of his victims instead of just killing and reanimating them.

How did they get away with redeeming Vader, really? Slaughtering the Jedi and working for the Empire all those years, yet is redeemed for saving the life of his son...redemption doesn't mean you are forgiven for all your past crimes. It can merely mean you have turned your back on darkness and moved toward the light, as it were.

I could see him being redeemed, in that he fights against the Lich King in the final confrontation of WotLK, and aids in his own destruction. A combination of the Ashbringer weakening the Lich King's power and perhaps Jaana making a cameo enabling him to fight against the Lich King, allowing the raid a chance to defeat him. He should still die (much as Vader does), but his last act serves to, in some small way, redeem him of his evil.

Be funny if, much like the hero's victory in Diablo I our victory here is all part of Ner'Zul's plan. After all, he was trapped in the Frozen Throne and required Arthas to break him free and supply him with a body, as it were. Killing Arthas seems unlikely to kill him, allowing his spirit rather to roam freely, perhaps to find another host. I see no reason the death of Arthas has to mean the end of the Lich King.

That sort of redemption is pretty over-done, but that doesn't mean it can't still be pulled off properly. Vader going all mushy at the end doesn't take away anything from how much of a badass he was, hopefully they can come up with a way of making Arthas turn on Ner'zhul and sacrifice himself somehow that it doesn't detract from the power of the things he's done to become, and since becoming, the Lich King. Yes, he's trying to corrupt the minds and souls of the heroes attempting to bring him down, but if you want to extend the comparison to Vader here, the comparison still stands. And he wouldn't be Scourge if he didn't have the Borg-like "you will be assimilated" mentality. (Alright, enough Star Wars/Trek references from me.)

The conversation about the cleansing of Ashbringer sort of died down a while ago, but it seemed to be left at "somehow Tirion cleansed it just by touching it." That's a pretty weak explanation, and it doesn't sit well with anyone. It seemed to me that it was much more along the lines of the sacrifice and mini-redemption of Darion Mograine that cleansed it. Giving up both his allegiance to the Lich King and his command of the weapon is a pretty major personal turn-around, even if we didn't care all that much about him as an NPC until now. The fact that it was Tirion Fordring specifically that he gave it to is irrelevant, other than that Tirion is a champion of the Light and stands against everything that is the Lich King.

It seems like they have different Ashbringer stories for different players.

1) T3 Raiders: Naxx raiders took the sword by force and still have the corrupt sword, searching for Darion in Outland when he has actually already returned to Azeroth and been corrupted.
2) Death Knights: Darion has regained the word somehow (was he a raider? was it gifted to him by the scourge who recaptured it / raider who looted it), he cleanses it with his redemption and gives it to Tirion Fordring.
3) Everyone else: Looted from a dead naxx raider in Utgarde Catacombs and given to Tirion Fordring. It has been cleansed somehow.

It will be interesting to see if any of this has changed, or if additional quests tie it all together. Hopefully version 1) will make a comeback somehow and allow players to obtain the sword.
Is the catacombs quest from Blizcon still ingame? It seems like the odd one out as 1) and 2) can be reconciled if Darion was a raider or was given the sword somehow.

Do keep in mind that there'll be a comic book outlining the Ashbringer story released in the coming months, if it's not out already. It'll hopefully clear up a lot of this confusion.

The Naxxaramas story was not retconned.

Think it this way: Darion Mograine, accompanied by some argent dawn people, stormed into Naxxaramas, slain Kel'thuzad(Story-wise they don't have to kill all the bosses before Kel to do that). He met his father Alexandros Mograine, sacrificed himself to the Lich King in order to free his father, becoming a deathknight. Then he was sent to the Light's Hope Chapel, where the Ashbringer was passed onto Tirion and cleansed.Somehow, on their way to Northerend, their fleet was ambushed by Vrykul, the blade was then taken to Utgarde.

There are several quests and in-game conversation proves this theory.

1. Eligor the Dawnbringer at Light's Hope said something to Scarlet Commander Marjhn:"It was your leadership that manipulated a grieving child to try to recover the sword. A child that has grown into a man with nothing but vengeance and hatred in his heart! And for what? You are no closer to the sword now than you were five years ago.
" The grieving child sounds just like Darion.

2. In the last quest of DK starting area, Darion mentioned his sacrifice to free his father. A scarlet member saw Naxx retreating days before. The only proper reason that Naxx was moving away is that Kel'thuzad was slain. The solicitation of Ashbringer comic #3 is"Aided by the Argent Dawn, Darion will drive into the very heart of the Scourge stronghold. But will he find resolution or death?".

Darion takes the role of our players'.

I wont be satisfied with the story of Arthas unless they allow us to pick up Frostmourne and dramatically impale him with it, like his Father. The story of the Lich King should not end on a happy note, everyone involved including players should be scarred in some way.

It'd be amusing if Frostmourne had that whole "the one ring"-complex, where it's an immensly powerful weapon, but as long as it's around the Lich King won't die - y'know, due to that whole spirit bonding-thing. Also it'll corrupt its weilder, and so forth.

But, seriously, wether 'compelled by the will of ner'zhul' or not, Arthas has done some pretty terrible things - things that shouldn't be redeemable because, oh, at an impulse invoked by hearing his ex-girlfriend's words (whom he ignored completely prior to taking up the sword) inspired him to suddently kill himself out of loathing of what he's become, or somesuch. I really hope it won't be like that.

Medivh redeemed himself in WAR III and he had a big one two.
Ok he was possessed by the soul of a Titan, but theses days who isn't.

Well, he was possessed from birth. Sure, if Arthas had been raised by Ner'Zhul and had always been encouraged to behave evil, but had a kind spirit, or whatever, then - sure - maybe. But from all apperances Arthas chose his destiny himself. He was prodded along and manipulated, but at any point up to where he picked up the sword he could just've gone "Hm... I think I'm gonna listen to the guardian of this world and my father and my girlfirend and my lifelong friend and teacher and the sword's guardians and the warning on that pedestal and this guy right next to me", but he didn't.

Is there going to be a raid in Azjol-Nerub with any upcoming patch? As far as from what i have read it only contains 2 5man raids, which destroyed my dreams of entering an outworldly dungeon which has the atmosphere and ambiance of Ahn'Qiraj.

About Darnassus, i was expecting it to be the primary strike point to the Northrend for the Alliance due to its location on the map, same applies for Silvermoon City for Horde. In the preparation days of Burning Crusade, i remember having read that "Darnassus is dull. And is definitely going to be revamped in future." in Schwick's famous "expansion summary" post. Still and yet, i wonder what utility they can add to Darnassus since this chance is spent however too.