World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 601

Ratek · 07/01/10, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Talgog

It's like arguing that Emperor Palpatine is well intentioned for some arcane strategic reason when the actor himself says the character is supposed to be pure evil.

That is actually one of the less good comparisons you could do, since Lucas himself has in an interview on the films specifically mentioned Palpatine in a comment on moral relativism. That Palpatine himself doesn't believe he is evil, that his brutal regime will bring peace and prosperity to a galaxy haunted by rebellions, civil wars, racial troubles and a political system consumed and debilitated by indecision. Take note of Palpatines' own "... and then we shall have peace." He isn't sarcastic, he is quite serious.
Palpatine IS evil, no doubt, but the creator himself specifically mentions him as a case of moral relativism.

The main problem with the current situation is that we only know a limited amount of Sylvanas' actions in Cataclysm. If this is all there is, or it continues, then a lot of people will get mad. Sylvanas has a large following because she has previously been the ruthless actiontaker, compared to the rather inactive Thrall. But making her downright evil will push those people away, you could call them the pragmatists. Because she has been the most pragmatic Horde leader. And a world apart from all by being devious. Basically she was the borderline choice.
Unless the Goblin leader becomes the old Sylvanas, it is huge loss for her to go nuts. And I'm quite sure Blizzard knows this. You don't take really popular characters and make them unpopular without a backlash from the fans in some way (might not be an active backlash, but perhaps a considerable drop in Undead players). Non-Undeads would go, "why are we helping these guys", while the Undeads would go "that's not what I signed up for".
Add to that the fact that they kill Cairne and Thrall is no longer leader. Well, what's left? Vol'jin was never much of a character (at least he gets more story now) aside from a portion of Rexxar's adventures. Theron, who? Basically it would cripple the Horde in terms of sense of belonging (do not underestimate the power of that in many people). Very bad idea.

The actions so far, seen alone are evil. But we know about Garrosh, and that could be the basis for the treasonous acts. And the way she acts when he is around. She never dared step out of line with Thrall. It would not be above Garrosh to give her impossible constrictions, just to impose his will. Given the previous trackrecord of both I'm leaning towards the pragmatic Sylvanas, rather than the evil one. But that doesn't mean I am sure of it. Just that I rather stick to how they are currently and apply that to that situation. Picking entirely new personalities based on a couple of conversations, containing one of the least capable Horde leaders is not a solution to me right now. I need more, perhaps I need to do the entire thing myself, I don't know.

Emeraude · 07/01/10, 11:27 PM

Speaking of the Goblin Leader(Gallywix). I have to say that of the 12 races, he's by far the absolute worst leader in power. I don't know if Blizzard isn't done with the Goblins, but good god. The entire Goblin starting area revolves around this douchebag pretty much screwing you and the entire Goblin race over repeatedly. He even clashes with Thrall himself before it's over, but he goes Dr. Wily on us(Literally, big machine breaks and he begs for forgiveness), and he remains the Trade Prince leader of the Blightwater Cartel. It's downright insulting, and poor writing that he's still the Goblin leader on any level.

There's another Goblin in the starting area named Sassy, and she's just downright cuddly, she's your assistant and helps you from beginning to end dealing with the loss of your homeland, and taking down Gallywix. I was really disappointed that she did not become the Trade Princess, but at least you get to see her again at the Cape of Stranglethorn.

I sincerely hope that sometime during the 1-85 leveling experience Gallywix is eliminated if you're a Horde player.

Ratek · 07/01/10, 11:40 PM

Good lord... Are they actively trying to push the 'good' Horde players to go Alliance? That sounds horrible. But the good thing is that he is a lot more involved with the new player. Cairne and Vol'jin, even Theron weren't really there, just posh skins.
But again, sense of belonging. If you don't trust or respect your leader, then you will start to act and think in terms of yourself, distancing yourself. I can't think of a good reason for that.

Hoenir · 07/01/10, 11:41 PM

The real problem here, is does an undead person really have a Will which to me removes the grey area, but as far as moral relativism goes it is not only to be viewed through the person carrying out the action but also anyone who views the action themselves.

Emeraude · 07/01/10, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hoenir

The real problem here, is does an undead person really have a Will which to me removes the grey area, but as far as moral relativism goes it is not only to be viewed through the person carrying out the action but also anyone who views the action themselves.

More food for thought on that. Prince Galen Trollbane from Stormguarde that the Horde kills:

Sigil of Trollbane - Quest - World of Warcraft
Prince Galen Trollbane - NPC - World of Warcraft

Is now a Forsaken NPC located at a new Forsaken Base Camp at the entrance of Arathi, he was added relatively recently because he wasn't there before. I also haven't done the zone but the humans that were in Stormguarde are gone now, and no he didn't offer any quests, he does however stare at you and make some blind remark about "The Will of the Dark Lady".

Kaejin · 07/02/10, 12:05 AM

@Talgog: They definitely went out of their way to paint her as the anti-hero racial leader, especially since she gives some pretty good evil overlord lines in that exchange, but I would be hesitant to say your first two points mean anything at all.

All of the Forsaken are ex-scourge. The Knights of the Ebon Blade are ex-Scourge. That doesn't mean anything. The Scourge were bound by Arthas's will and didn't really have much of a say in what they did. Furthermore, the nature of the Val'kyr is to raise the fallen as soldiers, being heavily based on the Valkyrie of Norse lore.

Neither of those things are evil. There were plenty of scourge that reveled in their role as the bad guys, but there were many that obviously didn't care so much for that either (The Knights of the Ebon Blade, among others).

Meanwhile, the Val'kyr and Vrykul in general are barbaric, but not evil. Arthas was their Odin. When the they woke after the Pantheon had apparently discarded them, they found a presence that conformed pretty closely to their own ideologies of might makes right and only the strongest survive. Not only that, but his presence was immediate. You knew he existed. He appeared in front of them and interacted with them. Their new god wanted them to prove themselves, and they wanted to prove themselves. Coincidentally, Northrend had just received a shipment of invaders from across the seas that they could use for that task.

As barbaric as the Vrykul were, they followed their own code to the letter and were faithful to their god. The Val'kyr were a part of that.

I'm tired of talking about moral relativism, so I hope we can move on from that pretty soon.

As far as disobeying Garrosh, it's possible that she's snubbing him on purpose, specifically and intentionally because he's Garrosh. It's pretty clear that none of the other racial leaders have any respect for Garrosh as a leader.

edit: a few other things

Lets not forget about this:
Will of the Forsaken - Spell - World of Warcraft

The entire idea of the Forsaken at the dawn of WoW was that they were freewilled undead. Not just freewilled, but strong willed.

As for Trollbane, I think that's awesome in sort of a "Haha!" towards the Alliance from the Horde. The Alliance definitely seem like they're getting the short end of the stick in Cata. His chatter sounds like the default Forsaken talk though, so I wouldn't really put much thought to it unless you mean it was a right-click dialog. Even then, if he was just implemented it may still just be rubbing it in towards Alliance.

I wonder if he'll remember me. :x

Vaccine · 07/02/10, 3:04 AM

It is midly disturbing they seem to be pushing the Horde down the evil route. The bastions of light that are Cairne and Thrall are disappearing for one reason or another.

I've always been pretty secure that Forsaken aside, the Horde were more of a "Good" group than the Alliance were. The humans really drag down the Alliance with their xenophobia and downright cruelty (the whole Defias situation is a fantastic example of that) and Wyrnn coming back just fuelled the fire. Also its hard to argue the Horde as bad guys when you often get events of Dwarven digs harming the earth and the Taurens or Orc shaman have to go in and sort it out. Even as recent as Cataclysm links where we discover SI:7 were sent to capture/kill Thrall.

Now the Alliance seem to be being manoeuvred into a Good Guy role, even going so far as to be losing a lot of territory (which to be fair they had more to start with so its likely more just to even out the levelling zones) Hollywood style ready for the big come back at the end of the movie where the good guys triumph!

Bierzkrieg · 07/02/10, 5:35 AM

Just to draw a line to my view on undead raising, I'll put it like this:

Battle revival is acceptable. Setting up an undead production line is not. However, none of the raised thought-capable undead shall be struck down. The "raisers", however...well, Garrosh pretty much makes the promise to Sylvannas.

I, for one, like being in this Horde. Not because I like any of this - I really don't, I still dislike Garrosh, distrust Lor'themar (although I respect Liandri) and pretty much abhor Sylvannas. But the fact is we've got some "interesting" (as in the chinese curse) times ahead of us. Like Vaccine mentioned, us (Horde) winning the territory war while inner turmoil is on the rise can only mean implosion and difficult times ahead. Then, Thrall (or Thrall 2) returns and all will be fine again.

PS: Never thought I'd say this, and I still think it was done in an abrupt manner - there's still room to correct that, though - but Garrosh is growing on me. I don't mind if he's a brutal mofo that has all his keys bound to Mortal Strike (unfornate joke for Cairne, make it an exception due to lack of intention) as long as he's on the Saurfang side.

PS 2: And speaking of Saurfang...I'm growing worried. If he's set to die, I dearly hope Blizzard has put its brightest minds to work on the biggest event in Azeroth since Deathwing forgot to use the dimensional door to come to this side.

Ukerric · 07/02/10, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ratek

That Palpatine himself doesn't believe he is evil,

No one, absolutely no one (except a few of the most bizarre insane individuals) believe that they are evil. In almost all cases, they believe their will and desires trump everyone else's will and desires, and that it's natural to be so.

Bullshot · 07/02/10, 5:53 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Speaking of the Goblin Leader(Gallywix). I have to say that of the 12 races, he's by far the absolute worst leader in power. I don't know if Blizzard isn't done with the Goblins, but good god. The entire Goblin starting area revolves around this douchebag pretty much screwing you and the entire Goblin race over repeatedly. He even clashes with Thrall himself before it's over, but he goes Dr. Wily on us(Literally, big machine breaks and he begs for forgiveness), and he remains the Trade Prince leader of the Blightwater Cartel. It's downright insulting, and poor writing that he's still the Goblin leader on any level.

There's another Goblin in the starting area named Sassy, and she's just downright cuddly, she's your assistant and helps you from beginning to end dealing with the loss of your homeland, and taking down Gallywix. I was really disappointed that she did not become the Trade Princess, but at least you get to see her again at the Cape of Stranglethorn.

I sincerely hope that sometime during the 1-85 leveling experience Gallywix is eliminated if you're a Horde player.

Yes, I still don't understand how he was allowed to remain in power. I don't see what was wrong with having Gallywix die and someone else becoming the new Trade Prince/Princess. As it stands now, it is one of the biggest howlers of not just this expansion, but the game's lifetime.

Kaejin · 07/02/10, 5:57 AM

@Bierz: There's no evidence that Saurfang is going to, or even might, die.

He's a very popular character, probably more-so than most of the racial leaders. If he dies in WoW's lifetime, they'll definitely make a big deal out of it.

On Gallywix: Maybe he just turns out a great quarterly profit?

Bierzkrieg · 07/02/10, 6:47 AM

Well, we do know less about him than even about Thrall.

All we've got is Garrosh saying "A great warrior once told me...". And you know the living never leave lessons for life, in stories (possible exaggeration at work).

He may be going sabatical, what with burying Draenosh and all...

Kazanir · 07/02/10, 6:47 AM

The fact that the Horde seem to be so clearly winning the war on almost every front is the most interesting thing to me about this expansion's storyline.

The removal of Thrall has had predictable consequences -- the individual personalities of the faction leaders are no longer checked by the Green Jesus of the Warcraft universe, and so you see the factions working together much more loosely and with their own personalities shining through. Hopefully the blood elves don't get as short shrift as they so obviously got in Wrath. The whole execution of the Sunreavers/Silver Covenant business was completely gagworthy.

Vaccine · 07/02/10, 7:50 AM

PS 2: And speaking of Saurfang...I'm growing worried. If he's set to die, I dearly hope Blizzard has put its brightest minds to work on the biggest event in Azeroth since Deathwing forgot to use the dimensional door to come to this side.

Hasn't him dying been your pet theory since the Deathbringer fight was datamined and the "tragic times for Horde in ICC" statement was released?

I hope he is alive still, if only so he can join us in Caverns of Time: War of the Ancients and fight alognside Broxxigar. I think if both of them jumped in the portal they could beat Sargeras!

@Horde Expansion: I think the issue was that Horde, as can be evidenced by the various loremaster quests, had a lot less content originally. I remember reading that the Alliance stuff was designed first so some of the Horde stuff got rushed towards the end, which was the explanation of why Horde cities were so under developed compared to Alliance ones.

Not I've not counted up the settlements before/after but I assumed the Horde gained ground simply as a balancing mechanism for the number of quests/quest hubs per faction for the new levelling process.

The Gilneas war is going to be Alliance won anyway, can't have them wiping out a starting zone and taking over. Ashenvale is now mostly Horde from what I understand, but given its proximity to Orgrimarr this is right in my opinion (look at any Alliance city, they are pretty much surrounded by Alliance controlled lands). Horde getting Azshara and most of Ashenvale is sensible and provides a buffer around Orgrimarr.

Could anyone from Beta report on whether Camp Taraujo was destroyed by the Alliance? I read a source somewhere that said it was destroyed by Alliance deserters who had formed some raiding party. If so, it's interesting they don't seem to be showing Alliance as the aggressors on any front, despite them starting the war. Except the attempted Thrall capture/assassination I guess.

Bierzkrieg · 07/02/10, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Hasn't him dying been your pet theory since the Deathbringer fight was datamined and the "tragic times for Horde in ICC" statement was released?

I hope he is alive still, if only so he can join us in Caverns of Time: War of the Ancients and fight alognside Broxxigar. I think if both of them jumped in the portal they could beat Sargeras!

Was my pet theory, I've come to accept that Blizzard acts like the typical henchman when it comes to proper-killing. As in, it doesn't...

I meant to say we haven't heard anything about Saur. The rest was not to be taken seriously.

Him actually being at the Caverns of Time is a good idea.

On the Horde-Alliance war...I'm wondering how these losses will affect the Alliance's inner politics. With the whole dwarf situation, the Night Elves' arrogance, and now Greymane the Unsatisfiable making his entrance, things don't look for Wrynn if he fails at one of the few things that makes him respectable: war.