Edit:

Nevermind, discussion has moved on. Needs a "delete" button.

Booty Bay, perhaps?

I was watching some of the Cata beta videos by that Totalbiscuit guy (he's had some featured on mmo-champion recently) and came across one from the troll starting zone that may put this discussion to rest.

YouTube - Cataclysm Beta - Troll Starting Zone

At the very end, Vol'jin has been considering if the Darkspear should leave the Horde now that Garrosh is in charge, and communes with Thrall through magic to get some answers. The cut scene that is supposed to take place isn't implemented, but the following quest contains Vol'jin himself saying this:

"Please remember, <name>, we may disagree wit' the young Hellscream at times, but his intentions are noble, and tis important we remain united as one Horde. Make the Darkspear proud."

I think this pretty much speaks for itself and I don't need to explain anything.

Go to 24:00 in the video time line and you can see for yourself.

So...Vol'jin was just really, really mad when he promised his Warchief that he'd put an arrow through his skull and take his position?

I have some trouble understanding how Garrosh will just watch as the trolls get back to full cooperation as if their leader hadn't threatened his superior.

It proves nothing because Vol'jin, though wise, isn't an encyclopedia, especially one of facts to come. What Garrosh seemingly does to Thrall is called treason because, well, no one is expecting it.

It wouldn't be unheard of for Vol'jin to:

1 - Go berzerk at Garrosh
2 - Go back to his island to show the trolls how much of an asshole Garrosh is
3 - Cool down and start pondering all the facts...
4 - Give Garrosh the benefit of doubt
5 - Be right in his first reaction (fuming and making death threats)

Edit: Just to clarify, so it doesn't seem contradicting: Vol'jin's change of heart is plausible, but unexpected. I wasn't hoping he'd break with the Horde, but a change of heart by the Trolls would make sense. As it is, it's natural for a person to have such a reaction, but it takes some of the dramatic weight to the first one.

My main doubt is how Garrosh will react to Vol'jin's threats, even if he still sees the trolls cooperating.

Again, I can't see why Blizz would want Garrosh to betray Thrall like this, but right now I just can't see any other option being this plausible. But we're heading into shades-of-gray territory for sure...

I think it's a simpler message. Thrall abducted by SI:7 and rescued by goblins. Thrall sent back the badge. Garrosh gets the badge and reads the subtext: "Hi, I'm Thrall. People like me. I mean really, really like me. Even so, I was abducted from tight security and my personal powers (that make yours look like a mallrat) didn't help. I was rescued by goblins. Because they like me. By the way, people do not like you. Your security is paranoid, but probably not as tight as you think. If something happens to you, you do not have friends." Garrosh naturally goes pale.

It's a big "this could be you" message to Garrosh. Not an "I have my eye on you" message. If Thrall had even a suspicion that Garrosh was behind it, the message would be going to Jaina, not Garrosh. Theramore should have no issue allowing in a goblin (as this should be before they're firmly and publicly Horde in the timeline).

Or that quest writer doesn't have a grasp on Garrosh's personality and figured he's go pale when he learned Thrall was almost lost, when we all know Garrosh instead would have flushed in anger and ordered up another dozen battleships.

No faked smiles (the Kor'kron is happy Thrall is free, and happy to be able to provide Garrosh bad news), no grand plot involving the enemy upon whom Garrosh personally declared war, nothing but the quest text itself.

Remember, your average WoW player isn't going to have a strong grasp on lore nor necessarily be terribly intelligent. If it's not spoonfed, it probably didn't happen. They're not dropping constant stage whispers (like random gray letter drops, as was mentioned above), which they would if they wanted this to be clearly understood as betrayal (number 18,427).

I think people are reading more into things simply because they want more reason to dislike Garrosh. Me, I don't need new reasons to dislike him (or Varian, the Alliance isn't magically better because my main is a human).

I agree with this. Garrosh has been a big jerk for all of WotLK and people don't like him. They're just looking for more reasons to dislike him and not really considering what is actually likely.

Garrosh isn't a schemer.
Garrosh loves the Horde (or at least the Orcs of the Horde).
Garrosh loves his father and wants to prove himself a hero worthy of the name Hellscream.
Garrosh hates the humans. Passionately.

None of this really amounts to the kind of person who would set up Thrall, even if he constantly shows him disrespect. It amounts to the brash and aggressive meathead we know him to be, but not the mastermind of a kidnapping plot or political assassination.

The fact that Thrall trusted Garrosh enough to make him Warchief and then was able to convince Vol'jin (who was on the verge of having the Darkspears leave the Horde altogether because of Garrosh) to put his trust in him as well speaks volumes, in my opinion. In fact, Vol'jin even goes so far as to endorse him after the conversation.

The Legerdemain Lounge is not segregated.

I would guess that it is somewhat out of date now. Vol'jin saying that Garrosh's intentions are noble doesn't quite sound like something that would follow that conversation.

I expect, however, if Garrosh were the culprit they wouldn't be quite so coy about it. Seems more like they're just referring to that fact that Garrosh isn't likely to simply hand back leadership of the Horde to Thrall, at least not unless his character goes through a few more changes.

Moreover, while Garrosh is dense, I don't think he would be dumb enough to get Thrall captured and possibly killed when Thrall is on a mission to save Azeroth itself. Seems like something you would save for afterward.



When did they take that out? Before beta started or at some point in the middle of alpha? I would think if they took it out before beta, it would be to keep it on the down low, but otherwise it seems like it would be because they changed it and simply hadn't put it back in yet. That's just my hunch, though.

The dialog just isn't in, you can see Thrall in the video posted, and if you do the starting area, but the dialog just isn't there. I thought they originally took that, and a few other lore sensitive things out because there were leaks. Vol'jin still says he's gonna try to communicate with Thrall in the quest text, it just doesn't happen, they might be editing it, it might be a bug, or they might have just temporarily removed it.

They also removed that bit about Magni turning to stone after a few builds.

Again, it doesn't seem like Garrosh's style. I certainly wouldn't put it past him to come up with something like this, though. I'm sure he's considered it. But he wouldn't go through with it,or even condone others to carry it out in his name, simply because it lacks a certain bluntness. He would stand to benefit from such a turn of events, but in the past he's been repeatedly ignoring potential gains in favor of fast and brutal methods. He's not going to start now.

This is something deliberately left vague for us to speculate on. A hint at future developments, and I doubt that means a later content patch. But now they have the option to escalate tensions if people like the new tone, or return Thrall to his rightful place if people don't.

As for the message itself, I see it rather as a "Watch your back! The Horde can't afford to lose another respected leader, regardless of our differences" than an "I know it was you!". After all, SI:7 operatives aren't supposed to be morons or pushovers. If one was involved, and slain, for that matter, it means two things: the Alliance are making a big move, and the Goblins are quite capable.

Unless Thrall is killed, but who would want to kill Thrall to keep him from retaking the Horde?! *Glares @ Garrosh*

I will agree that the whole thing seems a little bit clever for Garrosh though. I have alot of mixed feelings on the character in general, I think he's an idiot, but I also think his heart is in the right place.